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CNN Larry King Live
Jesse James Enters Rehab
Aired March 31, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, alleged cheater, Jesse James, in rehab as his wife, America's sweetheart, Sandra Bullock remains silent. He is in treatment for what? Is infidelity an illness? Is sex addiction for real, and can estranged spouses be cured? Or are some men and women making excuses for simply fooling around? It's all next on "LARRY KING LIVE."
Good evening. We're joined by Mike Fleeman, the West Coast Editor for People.com and Lauren Sanchez, correspondent for "Extra." A representative of Jesse James gave the following statement to CNN entertainment today, quote, "Jesse checked himself into a treatment facility to deal with personal issues. He realized that this time was crucial to help himself, help his family, and help save his marriage." What do you know about this story, Lauren? What do you know? We don't know why he checked in, so we can't deal with that.
LAUREN SANCHEZ, CORRESPONDENT, "EXTRA": What we know now is Jesse James two weeks ago was a dog that cheated on America's sweetheart, and now apparently, he is a dog that cheated on America's sweetheart wearing Nazi clothes. Like, it has gone from bad to worse and it just keeps getting -- I can't even explain. And now Extra has learned that he's in rehab, and they're not saying what he's in rehab for, but we're all assuming it's for sex rehab. And it is -- I feel bad for both parties. This is a woman who just won the Oscar, and now, she is in hiding. I mean, that's sad for her. That's sad for any woman.
KING: Mike, would this have been a big story had she not won the Oscar?
MIKE FLEEMAN, WEST COAST EDITOR, PEOPLE.COM: Sandra Bullock is one of Hollywood's biggest stars, and she was involved in one of Hollywood's most intriguing relationships.
KING: She's just been seen with him walking the red carpet.
FLEEMAN: Exactly.
KING: So, that adds to the story.
FLEEMAN: It adds to the story. But even before all this started, Hollywood was fascinated by them. They didn't know what America's sweetheart was doing with this motorcycle bad boy. And was this a relationship that was going to work? We're now seeing what the answer to that is. KING: Who is Jesse James?
SANCHEZ: Jesse James is a guy who builds motorcycles. He is a bad boy. He was married to a porn star. I mean, he is what he is. And he hasn't changed his stripes. I mean, no one is shocked, I think, that this has happened. I think, everyone thought the best for Sandra, they hoped that this wouldn't happen, but he is what he is. And now, you know, he's in rehab, I think, trying to change himself. Hopefully, trying to get Sandra's love back. And you know, this is a woman who, you know, we have learned as well is that, scripts are flying to her right now. She is getting offered everything. And she's Sandra Bullock.
KING: Was Jesse James a descendant of the Jesse James, the famed --
FLEEMAN: He is related. He is a descendant. What's interesting here is that despite all the bad news that we're hearing, despite the allegations of infidelity and now the Nazi Salute Photo, Jesse still thinks and hopes and is working to make this relationship, this marriage work. He went into this facility on his own volition. It wasn't any kind of, you know, order from Sandra Bullock. He thinks this is going to be the solution or one of the solutions.
KING: Do you know the facility?
FLEEMAN: We are not reporting where it is, and he hasn't so far, said exactly what he is being treated for.
KING: There is a presumption.
FLEEMAN: Exactly.
KING: On the red carpet for the People's Choice Awards in January, Sandra weighed in with some advice for Tiger Wood's wife, Elin. She told the insider, if I were Elin, man, I would have hit a lot more than she did. I would have kept hitting. She stopped. She was respectable. I'd get a baseball bat. I'd get everything out. What's your comment on that, Lauren?
SANCHEZ: I think she has gotten everything out. They're not really speaking. They talk every once in a while. She has drawn the line in the sand, and she is like saying, you know what? You've got to do what you've got to do. And you know, we're hearing rumblings that divorce attorneys are getting called. We haven't heard if either one has a divorce attorney. Now, they both have entertainment attorneys, but divorce attorneys, no one knows yet.
KING: They have no children, right? He has children.
FLEEMAN: That's what makes it interesting. When Sandra was talking on the red carpet, it was on the abstract. It was a sound bite. But now that it's real, now that she has three children to take into account. They're not her children. They're his children.
KING: She's close to them, though. FLEEMAN: Very close. Little Sonny (ph) who's 6 years old. They've been married for five years. It's almost the only mother she knows day to day. That's what complicates this. Sandra Bullock has choices and all of them really are bad right now.
KING: Jesse James was a competitor on the first season of celebrity apprentice. At one point, Donald Trump commented on the odd couple nature of Jesse and Sandra's relationship. Look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, HOST: He marries one of the most sought after women in the world which, you know, people like us sort to say, that's pretty cool. And yet, he is such a low key guy. If you're with him, you say he's a stiff. How the hell did he marry Sandra Bullock? I saw her on television. She's totally in love with this guy. I can't believe it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Any comment on that, Lauren?
SANCHEZ: I mean, you know, you can laugh and you can giggle at all --.
KING: Was he prophetic?
SANCHEZ: You know, but this is a woman, obviously, who I was just saying, her career has never been better, but as anyone knows who has been cheated on, trust me, I know it's--
KING: Have you been cheated on?
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KING: You were?
SANCHEZ: It's devastating. Not through my husband, no, but yes, as a woman yes, I've been cheated on. It's devastating. It doesn't matter what scripts are coming to her or how great her professional life is. This is a woman who's hiding in her home because someone broke her heart. And that's going to be hard to get through.
KING: Was she scheduled to do a film, Mike?
FLEEMAN: You know, the sad thing is that this was going to be her hiatus. This was going to be the time that she was going to spend with the children and with Jesse. She had nothing on the front burner. She was going to be taking some time off and enjoying her family.
KING: Are they releasing old movies now? Knowing the commercialism of the world?
FLEEMAN: You know, Sandra Bullock has never had a problem getting an audience. And she is one of the hottest actresses in Hollywood right now.
KING: CNN has obtained a statement from Jesse James' attorney, Joe Vanny. It says in part, I would request that his rights in regards to privacy and his medical matters be respected. I understand people's desires in note worthy stories. But I would hope that, by now, this wasn't such a newsworthy story such that his basic rights and privacy aren't continuously invaded in an improper manner. Does he not have a point, Lauren?
SANCHEZ: Not really. Not when you marry one of the biggest movie stars in the world.
KING: You don't have privacy.
SANCHEZ: I think it come to a point, yes, I'm sure he would love privacy, but you can't just have privacy when you want privacy. And he was the guy who went on the apprentice. You know, they're talking to red carpet and now we're up to like mistress number five? It comes to a point where you're not going to get it.
KING: It's not going away, is it, Mike?
SANCHEZ: Unfortunately.
FLEEMAN: It's not going to go away any time soon because so much is unresolved. Is she going to stay with him? Is she going to leave? Is there going to be some kind of divorce battle brewing? There are a lot of unresolved questions.
KING: Thank you both. It's terrific seeing you. Is sex addiction for real? Is it being used as an excuse for bad behavior? Some answers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back. There is little dispute that Jesse James cheated on his wife, Sandra Bullock. The specific reasons for his infidelities whether they are at the core of the personal issues, he's check into a facility seeking treatment for we can't confirm. But this scandal coupled with the Tiger Woods public confession to having had multiple affairs has inevitably provoked a discussion about sex addiction.
We're joined by Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of VH1 Celebrity Rehab, author of the mirror effect, how celebrity narcissism is seducing America. A terrific book. He is an addictionologist. Never heard that term before. And Robert Weiss is founding director of The Sexual Recovery Institute.
Dr. Pinsky, my friend, Colin Cowherd, on ESPN radio this morning made a strong plea for the fact that there is no such thing as sexual addiction. One of his examples was Derek Jeter is single. He dates many, many well known pretty models and women. No one has ever called him a sex addict because he is not married. So, is there a hook? Are you a sex addict if you're married? DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST, VH1'S CELEBRITY REHAB: You can be, of course. It's really -- it's a way to think of it is. Addiction is defined by consequences. And there are many alcoholics out there that are controlling their drinking. It still works for them. They're able to kind of prevent it from spiraling out of control, and they think of their drinking as normative. The reality is --
KING: Only if it is an addiction if you'll live with it?
PINSKY: It is, but at the very least, we would call it addictive traits and the potential to go out of control. When things are really spiral out of control is when people are trying to contain these behaviors and then the consequences mount.
KING: Robert Weiss, when is sexual addiction sexual addiction?
ROBERT WEISS, FOUNDING DIR., THE SEXUAL RECOVERY INSTITUTE: I think you're at a really a good point. You know, when you have to stop a behavior or change your behavior, and you can't, or you don't know how to.
KING: Maybe single, married, whatever.
WEISS: Doesn't matter.
KING: Not every man, woman?
WEISS: We work with men all the time who are unable to form relationships, because they're so busy looking at porn and hooking up in anonymous sexual situations.
KING: But if they can have a job, have a successful life --
WEISS: Then they should enjoy themselves. I really could weigh (ph) -- understand sex addiction is to say, you know, they're people enjoy alcohol and then there are alcoholics. You know, you don't want to be an alcoholic, but you might want to be someone who enjoys alcohol. It's the same thing with sex.
KING: A thin line?
PINSKY: It can be a thin line, but I'll tell you, Larry, when you deal with people who really have this, there's no debating it. I mean, Tiger is a great example to me of somebody who really has suffered a lot. He damaged his family, his career, his children, a woman he loves. These were people he built a life around and with, and he harmed them and he wanted to stop.
KING: If he were single and the same golfer, would we even be talking about it?
PINSKY: We probably wouldn't, but you know, the same thing is true (ph) almost any addiction. When people come to see me in the hospital, they don't walk in the door and go, you know what I decided today, I'm going to stop drinking. They may have been thinking about it for three years, but they came in that day because they had a DUI. They nearly died. Their wife put them in or some other such consequence.
KING: Everyone asks this. What happens, Robert, in treatment?
WEISS: Treatment is about confronting people's denial. You know, how could you think this wasn't going to happen? You know, everybody comes in a crisis like Drew said, so it's, you know, you were driving drunk. How could you do that? What were you thinking that you thought you wouldn't get in trouble?
KING: In treatment, they take liquor away or they reduce it slightly. In drug addiction --
(CROSSTALK)
KING: What do you do?
WEISS: We prefer abstinence. We prefer the people are not sexual during the course of treatment, because it just interferes in the process. It just gets in the way. And we ask them to commit to that. You know, we're looking at their denial. We're looking at their grief. We're trying to help them figure out how to live a life that doesn't cause them the same kind of problems they've had. But their being sexual in treatment just creates more problems than as worth who prefer to ask for abstinence during that time which many men object to, by the way. Do you know, some men think that they're going to explode if they don't have sex. It's amazing to me. Or die.
PINSKY: I think one of the things --
KING: Sex rules them.
PINSKY: They somehow. The idea of them without it somehow is just, you know, shuttering to them. But a way to think about it is that many of these people with sex addiction have very, very poor boundaries. That's one of the features of them. And you first start by establishing boundaries around their body. How they dress. How they touch other people. How other people address and touch them. And then you build up from there. Inevitably, it ends up being with some very intense emotional issues, because sexuality is very deeply and better --.
KING: Are there some men, Robert, who are just naturally flirtacious? They come on with people, but they're not addicts. They're just --
WEISS: Sure. Are there people who drink or even get drunk occasionally and have a good time is not a problem for them? Absolutely. But are there people who drink alcohol --
KING: But the question is if it's a problem it is an addiction. Is that it?
WEISS: If it's a problem and you don't pay attention to it. It has a potential to be an addiction.
KING: Back with more of Dr. Pinsky and Robert Weiss. You're not a doctor, right?
WEISS: I'm Rob.
KING: And Rob. Do you have a problem, Rob? I'll try to help you. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Robert Weiss and Dr. Drew Pinsky. True Robert Weiss that you had firsthand experience struggling with sexual addiction?
WEISS: I have a good understanding of where that comes from. I mean, I spent a number of years out there myself. I know what that's like, and I know --
KING: How did you defeat it?
WEISS: A lot of therapy, a lot of 12 step meanings, a lot of treatment.
KING: Are you sure you want to talk about it because you went into it as a field.
WEISS: The problem is that people who are in something for a field and also have the issue or can be very evangelistic. You know, they're seeing this being -- I've got to save everybody (ph). And that's not my job. I'm not interested. I'm interested as a therapist and a professional. I'll help people with this problem because people talk about it.
KING: Dr. Pinsky, you mentioned during the break, love addiction.
PINSKY: I do.
KING: There's a difference?
PINSKY: Oh, sure. Most women, I wouldn't say most, many women come in to sexual addiction through love addiction. There's certain about love addiction, love avoidance cycle that many people like --
KING: They want to be in love.
PINSKY: They want to be in love, but I think a cycle that your viewers would be familiar with is women that go for the bad, unavailable guy. I mean, many woman go through that frustration in their life. It usually get over.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I'm the bad guy, and they seem to pursue me. That is --
KING: And some men like bad girls.
PINSKY: Absolutely. But then once somebody is actually available for closeness, then that feel is uncomfortable and clingy and they don't like it so much. And in Sandra Bullock's case, she missed a lot of red flags. She idealized him and that's sort of the groundwork of setting up a love addiction.
KING: Why are we so fascinated with these stories?
WEISS: We don't talk about sex in our culture. We don't talk about the issues of sex.
PINSKY: We talk about it all the time and everywhere.
WEISS: You, Dr. Pinsky, speak about sex a lot, but you know, we don't talk about these issues until they come out publicly.
KING: Still a taboo thing?
WEISS: Yes, and let's face it, not every woman has the ability to kick her husband out. There are a lot of women out there in a lot of pain around with their husbands are doing, but they don't have the financial resources to say you're out. So, at least they can, through this situation like, this understand and feel like, yes, I don't want to be treated like that.
KING: Why, Drew, would some woman or man stay married to a sexual addict?
PINSKY: Great question, Larry. And we do find that most addicts do stay with their significant other, and, I, personally advocate for it because both people.
KING: You do?
PINSKY: I thought the fact that Tiger and his wife stayed together was an extremely positive thing for both of them.
KING: Why? why is it good for her?
PINSKY: It's a certain kind of person that's going to go after, be attracted to a lot of guys. They have some stuff they need to work on, too. And by the way, what we see, I'm sure Rob sees it more than me, the couple can end up in a very rich place. Very good together. Very happy together.
WEISS: About 85 percent of the couples that come in with extensive betrayal stay together anyway, because they have more going. You know, they have family. They have kids. They have money. They have relationships. They have church. There's a lot going on there.
KING: We decide on many programs, we don't know why someone starts to become a drug addict. We know that they do but we don't know why.
PINSKY: I do, I think. You know, the way I conceptualized it is a bid for emotional regulation. That's what I describe. People are deeply unregulated. The emotions are too profound, too intense, too prolong, and too negative. They tend to reach outside of their body if they are genetically set up for this to work for them for a solution that our culture encourages that.
KING: What promise someone to be a sexual addict?
WEISS: It's different for men than women, Larry. I mean, women to have more real sexual abuse, overt, someone touched them inappropriately for a long period of time. They learned to use sex as a power. You know, I can stand on stage and be a dancer and I can feel like I have power over all these men even though you're standing there naked, a strip club, for example. Men tend to have more emotional violation as children, and you know, we tend to have more fragile egos than women. I don't know if you knew that especially as kids, and when our egos are not tended to, we're not well taken care as children, we can look start looking outside of ourselves to get validation.
KING: If you're married, Dr. Pinsky, is it also the drama of it? The excitement of the cheat?
PINSKY: You know, again, in my experience, people getting aroused and sort of enticed by the drama, that tends to be more women in my experience. The intensity of it.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: The idea that I could be getting arrested or I can be in trouble. That amps up the high, because sex addiction is not about sex. It's about the idea of sex. And that's important to say, if sex addictions were about sex you can get over it, most of us could get over it with maybe in a couple minutes. It's about the pursuit of sex. They're looking for sex. The hunt, the chase, the possibilities, the arousal, not genital arousal but emotional arousal that comes to the possibility that maybe that person is going to want me, maybe I can get them to want me.
WEISS: And it's the same thing with love addiction. Love addicts are not interested in intimacy or love. They're interested into intensity and power and that's why it ends blowing up in their face.
KING: We'll be back with more. We'll have two more guests. Nothing will convince one of our guests that cheating is anything but men misbehaving. get ready because this is going to sound off next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Dr. Drew Pinsky and Robert Weiss remain. We're joined by the one and only Stephen A. Smith, radio host, fox sports columnist, the "Philadelphia Inquirer" one of the better sports writers in America, by the way, and Dr. Lori Buckley, clinical psychologist and sex therapist. Before Steven Smith will have his strong opinions, I'm sure, Dr. Barkley, you are a sex therapist. Is there sexual addiction?
LORI BUCKLEY, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I say no.
KING: You say no. BUCKLEY: I say no. I say, there is sexual compulsion. There are problems around sexuality. I don't think we're so far off in a lot of our beliefs, but as far as the clinical diagnosis of addiction, no.
KING: So you disagree with both Robert Weiss and Dr. Drew Pinsky?
BUCKLEY: Yes.
KING: Okay. Stephen Smith, is there sexual addiction?
STEPHEN A. SMITH, RADIO HOST, FOX SPORTS: Absolutely not. Dr. Drew knows how I feel about it. He and I have talked about this in the past. I think it's absolutely bogus. It's a perfect excuse to be used by men in this day and time because of something that has ailed and plagued us since the beginning of time as far as I'm concerned, the influence of a woman on the male psyche, the male species as a whole. The fact is we covet what we see. We've always been that way. And any excuse outside of that is utterly ridiculous to me.
KING: So you don't think Tiger Woods, let's say, has a problem.
SMITH: No. I don't think he has a problem at all. I think his problem was trying to pretend as if he could commit to one woman and to be monogamous. The reality is that it is incredibly tough for him. He's a billionaire athlete. And like Chris Rock joked, the comedian, joked once upon a time, men are usually as faithful as their options. And that's a real trifling thing to say. It's not very, very popular with the women by and large. And I respect that and I understand that, but the fact of the matter is, it is work to be monogamous. It is work to be faithful. It takes no effort at all for a man to step out and do otherwise.
KING: Dr. Pinsky, is he right?
PINSKY: Oh, I think that's true. That it takes work to be monogamous. But if you look at any measure of health, men are happier, healthier when they're in a sustained monogamous relationship. And people in our culture, and I love when Stephen talks, he hypnotizes me. So, keep talking, Stephen. I love it.
(LAUGHING)
KING: Stephen Smith should always be on television.
PINSKY: Just talking. I just go into a fugue state (ph). I lose the capacity to defend myself, too, don't mind you. But the fact is that people lose track, and there are culture particularly of something called intimacy. Many of us have intimacy disorders. We don't know what intimacy is. We don't know how to control our closeness or what I called proximity of other minds and that is where real health evolves. That's where emotional health is maintained and that's where physical health also develops as well. And if you look at intimacy as the goal, things like sexual addiction, if you're going to call it that really get in the way. KING: Is Dr. Buckley wrong, Robert Weiss, when she says it's not addiction?
WEISS: I think that you can call it whatever you want. You can call it compulsion. You can call it addiction. You can call it a symptom of a larger set of issues. The reality is there are men and women who act out sexually in certain ways, and they seem unable to stop that behavior despite their consequences. And they need a certain form of treatment that follows. Whatever you call it, I don't care.
KING: Does it concern you, Dr. Buckley, that no matter what the transgressions, in a poll more fans want tiger to win the Masters than want them to not win the Masters.
BUCKLEY: He's a great golfer. So, you know, they want to see him golf.
KING: But they don't want to see him get hit hard. They don't want to see him lose badly, not make the cut.
BUCKLEY: He got some problems. He needs to work on them. He needs to be accountable for his behavior. I think he does need help. I think the cop-out of the addiction model and going in for, to rehab.
KING: He's never said he's an addict.
BUCKLEY: But he did go into rehab.
KING: We don't know his addiction is sexual (ph).
WEISS: Could I speak to that issue? Because the idea that going into addiction treatment is a cop-out just really confuses me. Because, you know, it's not like it's a fun ride to be in treatment. We confront, we challenge, we are hard on your butt when you're in treatment.
KING: Stephen, do you think it is a cop-out?
SMITH: I don't think there is any question that it's a cop-out. And here's the reason why, because they're measuring what they could potentially lose. That's the ultimate incentive. If Tiger Woods was faced with criticism and faced with being expelled, sort to speak, from the public at large and unwilling, or having the inability to ingratiate himself with the masses at large and he had to just deal with that and be done with it and go on and play golf and still be able to accumulate the wealth and the successes than he was able to accumulate pride or all (INAUDIBLE) I don't think he would have ever been in the sex addiction clinic, but the reality is --
(CROSSTALK)
WEISS: You're kind of a cynic. ?
SMITH: I am. Let me be very clear. I'm sorry. It is nice for you to notice that. I'm not denying that. My point to you -- WEISS: Hope for relationships? Hope for healing?
SMITH: Listen to me. I'm not saying there is no hope. What I'm saying to you is this. I've known and I've covered professional sports for many years, and obviously, I'm a man myself and I've been single for many years and I've gotten into my own situations. Let me be clear. There's No hypocrisy.
WEISS: Give me a call if you.
SMITH: No, I don't need to give you a call, because I understand I'm accountable for my own actions, and I have to suffer the consequences of my own actions. If you're somebody like a Tiger Woods or others who go on quote/unquote a "sex addiction clinic," what the public at large needs to see is somebody that's a bit can try it, this exhibiting a level of contrition. They're apologetic. They're sorry for the pain that they've caused so many people when in fact they weren't trying to cause any pain at all. They were just trying to get theirs. They got caught. They got busted and they want an explanation for the messes that's why they did what they did.
KING: Let me get a break. And when we return, we'll attempt to get Stephen Smith to come forward a little more who is most likely to be a sex addict. Some answers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back. Dr. Pinsky, can we tin-type the sexual addict? Who was likely to become a sexual addict?
PINSKY: An easy sort of answer that is women that were sexually abused are very likely to be --
KING: Men?
PINSKY: Men, sexual abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse.
KING: A man sexually abused as a child is likely to become --
PINSKY: I'm not saying sexual abuse leads to necessarily sexual addiction. But it is a common heritage in those people that do develop it.
KING: Layman might guess, Robert, that it would lead away from it.
WEISS: Yes, you would think the guy who was beaten wouldn't beat his kids, but that's just not how it works.
PINSKY: There's a strange thing about the human, Larry, that experiences that are terrorizing in childhood become arousing and attractive in adulthood.
KING: Why do you think the public is rooting -- more of the public is rooting for Tiger Woods than rooting against him, despite the fact most people would say this is despicable? BUCKLEY: Right? It is kind of crazy, isn't it? But I think because he has been a hero for so long -- and I think he disappointed a lot of people. But I also think there is some compassion and empathy. And I think ultimately we're selfish. We want to see him be entertaining to us. We want to see him do well. And maybe there's some good stuff.
KING: Steven, do you want him to win the Masters?
SMITH: No question. I don't think he will because It think it is just pure rustiness. I don't expect him to win. But I --
KING: Why do you want him to win?
SMITH: Because I think he is the greatest golfer in the world. I think everybody is entitled to make their mistakes. We are in America. This is the land of second chances. The reality is that although some of the details of what allegedly has transpired in his life has been repugnant, the fact is who knows what is going on in anybody else's bedroom?
You've got a lot of people out there that are saying to themselves, you know, it has been a bit extreme the kind of heat that's been thrown in his direct. He is still just a golfer. He's the greatest in the world. Let's put this in perspective.
KING: Steven, what about those who say, concerning anyone, the movie star, the golfer, it's none of our business.
SMITH: I agree with that. I don't believe that the details, the salacious details in regard to his relationship with his wife or the prostitute, strippers, hookers, whatever you want to pick -- I don't think those details are any of our business. But I do think it is worth getting into the psyche of an individual that would apparently have so much to lose and would engage in some of the raunchy kind of behavior that he allegedly has engaged in.
I don't think there is any question that there is some inquisitiveness that comes along with that.
KING: Why do we risk, Dr. Pinsky?
PINSKY: Why do we take risk?
KING: Risks. The Tiger Woods risk is monumental.
PINSKY: That's denial. That's about denial.
KING: I'm not going to get caught.
PINSKY: They're so in the arousal of the moment that they just ignore what the consequences could be. It is not until the consequences comes to bear that they have to deal with it.
(CROSS TALK) WEISS: I think Tiger said. That he said I felt entitled in the world that I was living and the way I was living to be able to take what I wanted. He said that.
KING: Steven?
SMITH: I get that this is where Dr. Drew and I, we part like the Red Sea, for crying out loud. How about some people just acknowledging that there are some men out there -- God forbid a man has to come on national TV and say this. There are some men, dare I say, that are absolutely miserable at home. They're not happy at all, particularly with their sex life.
WEISS: They can get a divorce.
SMITH: Of course, yeah. But when you're worried about losing 300, 400 million dollars, or in a more relative case, just half of whatever you've learned -- if you're a basketball player, your wife never shot a jump shot. If you're a golfer, you're wife never shot a hole in one. If you're a football player, your wife never scored a point. You work all your life to get to this point, then, all of a sudden, she's on the verge of taking half because you're not happy with her any longer? That's a lot to risk.
PINSKY: I really, really do not believe that Tiger is unhappy with his wife.
KING: How do you know?
PINSKY: The way he speaks about her. I have some capacity for honesty. And I think he deeply loves his wife. And I think he wants to salvage that relationship. And I believe he will. I think that's more important to him.
(CROSS TALK)
BUCKLEY: Men cheat.
PINSKY: Some men cheat.
BUCKLEY: Not all men cheat. But not all men who cheat are addicts, nor are they addicts at all. Certainly, the fact that he is cheating or has cheated or got caught cheating doesn't put him in this addict category. He was a cheater. And it became a problem when he got caught.
SMITH: Larry, I think this is an incredible point to make. I don't know his relationship with his wife. Neither does Dr. Drew or anybody else. We can think what we want to think. In this day and time, if you're a public figure like Tiger, and indeed you have engaged in the acts that he allegedly has engaged in, Larry, could you really come on national TV or go in front of a national audience and say, you know what, my wife just made me unhappy? Could you be like Mark Sanford and say, I found my soul-mate, while he was married and he was talking about somebody other than his wife. You have a lot to lose. It is not like people can openly admit. Men can't openly admit in this female oriented, Oprah-fied society that, guess what, I'm just not happy. They can't pull that off. They just can't do it.
KING: Boy, she is terrible!
SMITH: I'm just telling you, you can't do it. It is career suicide to do that for a guy. I'm telling you.
KING: Someone once said, why are divorces so expensive? The answer was because they're worth it. Is monogamy a thing of the past? We'll talk about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back. Robert Weiss, is monogamy history?
WEISS: I don't think monogamy is history.
KING: Do we know what percentage?
WEISS: More than 50 percent of the male population in the United States is monogamous.
KING: How do we know that?
WEISS: That's what those guys say. We assume they're absolutely telling the truthful. We do have a high level of monogamy in this country. We focus on the cheaters. But the reality is a lot of people don't cheat.
KING: As opposed to Europe?
WEISS: I don't know. I haven't talked to those guys in Europe.
KING: Fayetville, North Carolina, as we go to some calls, hello.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. Thank you for taking my call.
KING: Sure.
CALLER: I was wondering, why is it when it is someone who has fame and money, it is an addiction. But if you're just an Average Joe, you're just a cheater.
KING: Is that true, Dr. Buckley?
BUCKLEY: It does seem to be that way, yeah.
KING: The Average Joe can't afford --
BUCKLEY: Exactly. And they don't necessarily need to do that. I do think that it is an attempt to make things right. They got caught. They want to make things good. I think, in some ways, it could be coming from a good place. Hey, I want to get some help. I want to do things differently in my life. But I also think it is an excuse. Hey, you know what, I have a problem. I have an illness.
PINSKY: Go to a 12-step meeting for sex addiction, and you will not see a bunch of celebrities there. You will see a bunch of regular Joes very humbly asking for help. When it come to very difficult behaviors to change, it is hard to change people's behavior. Twelve steps does do that.
KING: Massachusetts, hello.
CALLER: Thank you, Larry. How you doing? A big fan of the show. I have a question for Dr. Drew. Dr. Drew, do you think that Jesse James would be a good fit for the next season of "Celebrity Rehab?"
PINSKY: I don't know if he is using chemical or not.
KING: We don't know what he is in for, so we're not going to say.
PINSKY: We're not sure where he went.
KING: That's correct.
PINSKY: Anybody who wants help, of course. I'm assuming that's a joke.
SMITH: Larry, would you like me to point out another problem with this monogamy thing you were talking about?
KING: What is that?
SMITH: The fact of the matter is this: depending on what report you read, women outnumber men, ten, 12, 15 to one, depending on whatever report you read. What I'm saying to you is this: when you become a man, it is incredibly -- it's a lot easier to stop chasing women. You just get to a point, you're tired with it. You're done with all that nonsense. You move on.
Very, very few men are trained and prepared to deal with women offering themselves on a silver platter. I'm a single guy. Married men come up to me at least five times a week and laugh in my face and say to me, ha, you think you've got it now. Wait until you get married. Even more women are going to come chasing you after you get married, because a lot of women out there want men who are spoken for, because those men, at least, they know where they're going home to at night, and those men can't hold them accountable, because they have somebody else to be accountable to. That's something we don't hear.
KING: Dr. Buckley, do you agree women like married men?
BUCKLEY: There are some men that like -- some women that absolutely are drawn to married men. And, of course, we can't forget the women that are drawn to celebrities. So there is a lot of opportunity out there. And so sometimes it is a little more difficult to resist that opportunity. About that question you had about is monogamy a thing of the past, there are some people who can be monogamous, who thrive on monogamy. There are some people who just choose not to do it or don't do well with it. And it just depends on where you're at. You need to be clear with that. If you're someone that doesn't do well with monogamy, you probably shouldn't get married.
KING: We'll be right back with more. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: What are the chances -- we'll run around -- Dr. Pinsky, of rehabbing a marriage?
PINSKY: It is very high. Marriages that stay together do rather well.
KING: What is the percentage of those that do?
PINSKY: Eighty five percent stay together.
WEISS: About 85 percent in sex addiction.
KING: We'll pick up with that more.
(NEWS BREAK)
KING: Let's get another call. Vale, Colorado, hello.
CALLER: Hi, I have a question for Steven Smith.
KING: Go ahead.
CALLER: When he says a lot of men, after they get married, get bored with their sex lives, my friend once wisely pointed out when a guy said that to us one time, whose fault is that? I mean, the implication is that the women bore the husbands. That's why they go to other women. But darn men! couldn't they be looked at as not investigating and probing their own sex lives further and making them creative and fun?
SMITH: Allow me to be very, very clear. If a man is not getting the job done, that's his problem. Again, we're talking about a man stepping out on his wife. So the belief is that if you're not getting the job done at home, chances are you're not going to get the job done too many other places.
The reality is that a lot of time, when women want to bring up that particular question, what you're doing is pointing out the transgressions of a man. You have to ask yourself why that man is transgressing. If he were happy at home, perhaps that would not be the case. That's not to absolve them. You have a lot of trifling men out here with some serious problems. But a lot of men, far often than not, are very, very unhappy. That does not get publicized enough.
KING: We thank -- we thank. Dr. Pinsky will remain. Robert Weiss, Steven A. Smith, Dr. Laurie Buckley. When we come back, two prominent divorce attorneys will join us with the legal implications of marriage to a movie star. What happens when it goes south? Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back. We're talking about marriage, sex addiction and now divorce. Stacy Schneider, the veteran trial attorney and former divorce lawyer. and author of "He Had it Coming, How to Outsmart Your Husband and Win Your Divorce." She's in New York. Mark Vincent Kaplan here with us in LA, a family law and divorce attorney. Among his high profile clients -- there have been many -- Britney Spears' ex-husband Kevin Federline. And Dr. Drew Pinsky is still with us. Stacy, in what percentage of divorces is infidelity paramount?
STACY SCHNEIDER, FORMER DIVORCE ATTORNEY: Many, many divorce, Larry. It's unfortunate. It's paramount, but unfortunately it does not get a lot of play in the divorce courts because most states are no fault states. It really doesn't matter who broke up the marriage or for what reason. The judge isn't really going to do anything about infidelity when he's dividing up the assets, unless one of the spouses cheats and spends all the money on the mistress and takes on vacations and is spending down the marital assets by paying for her wardrobe. Then an aggrieved wife has a chance to get that money back.
But, really, infidelity just does is not going to have much of a play. It just affects the emotions of the parties.
KING: Except New York, right?
SCHNEIDER: New York is the strangest place. We're still a fault state and actually, yes, people can make allegations of adultery to get out of a marriage. It's an archaic. No one is doing that anymore in the divorcee arena.
KING: Mark, what's your experience with infidelity and divorce?
MARK VINCENT KAPLAN, DIVORCE ATTORNEY: This is a no fault state, as Stacy said. It doesn't come into play.
KING: You don't even list it.
KAPLAN: It comes into play if somehow migrates as an issue with behavior and custody. Other than that, it usually does not. It might be a factor in motivating the other party to go on with divorce in ways that otherwise they may not, but it's not a huge factor.
KING: Are celebrity divorces harder?
KAPLAN: They're harder because there's more issues to manage. You have to manage media. You have to do that because it is going to be something that's part of the career of one or both of the clients. They're harder that way.
It's also harder in the sense you have people with a lot of power used to getting their own way. That's always something that is difficult to factor in, listening to you in a ways that they may not feel right about, but they really need to do what's right for the litigation, not for the revenge.
KING: Can infidelity cause one of the spouses to lose custody?
KAPLAN: Only if the manner in which it's done, it's done in a way that subjects the children to some way that is not appropriate for them to be around the other person, something in that regard.
KING: Stacy, what's your opinion on a third party involved? The Los Angeles Dodgers?
SCHNEIDER: When there's a third party involved in a marriage?
KING: The Dodgers are a major institution in baseball and in Los Angeles. They're an entity in the community. The two people who own them, one says she owns them, she says she owns half of them. They bring that in to this. so there's a third party in the courtroom.
SCHNEIDER: You know what? you can take that third party and you can get a lot of leverage and evidence out of it. I've actually been involved in divorce cases where there were mistresses, and I brought that mistress into a court and -- actually into an office. We had a deposition. I asked very intimate and probing questions of the mistress to get evidence for a divorce case.
It does give -- the fact that there's a third party involved gives divorce attorneys a lot of access to some very interesting information to use against the spouse in a divorce.
KING: That's going on right now. Dr. Pinsky, Neil Simon wrote a great line once, in the "Odd Couple," "divorce must be popular, 50 percent do it."
PINSKY: Yet, as we sit here and talk about this topic tonight, infidelity ruins marriage. There's tremendous pain and consequences of these behaviors. The fact is how we can argue whether or not monogamy is good or not is hard for me to understand. Monogamy always equates with health. It pays dividends with time.
When you do things that diminish intimacy, diminish monogamy, you're putting it in harm's way by bringing other relationships in, by not paying proper attention to it, by not nurturing it properly. It pays rich dividends. And it's very, very painful and unhealthy when people do not realize it.
KING: The late, great lawyer Louis Nizer (ph) told me once he would never handle a divorce case again because the anger in a disputed divorce is greater than the victim sitting behind the murder suspect in a criminal trial, the anger in the parties. Do you find that to be true?
KAPLAN: I think that there's great anger. I think that people want to purge that anger by having some arena that's usually a court appearance.
PINSKY: Absolutely.
KAPLAN: Usually, it turns to hate prior to the time turns to divorce.
KING: Why do you like it then?
KAPLAN: It's an equitably driven arena. I like being able to argue fairness. I'm a trial lawyer. I think it's always great to be able to take your sense of fairness, and take the underdog many times.
KING: You can defend a man in the morning and woman in the afternoon?
KAPLAN: I can do it at the same time.
KING: They have a similar case on either side. So you can argue both sides.
KAPLAN: Absolutely. You have to be careful that argument doesn't get used against you in the afternoon.
KING: Stacy, ever represent men?
SCHNEIDER: All the time I represented men. There's really no difference. I have a lot of strategies for women because I think they're on the short end of the stick, but not in Hollywood, certainly. Sandra Bullock is the big bread winner in this marriage, and Jesse James is going to come out a very wealthy man from this. He has some of his own money.
KING: He will get alimony.
SCHNEIDER: He is going to do really, really well. It's a 50/50 split of the assets earned during the marriage. He may be entitled to alimony. In this situation, if he is a real man and has any kind of respect for Sandra Bullock, he should walk away with nothing. He should say to her, I destroyed this marriage. I destroyed you in the process. I'm going to make it easy. I'm not going to litigate. I'm going to leave.
KING: Mark, what would you bet on that?
KAPLAN: I think there might be a prenup. I don't know if there is. That could change everything, because there could be a waiver of rights that otherwise you wouldn't have. Where he is a real man or just a human being, if he has the right to receive alimony, he should get alimony. If he has the right to get property --
KING: No matter what he did.
SCHNEIDER: No matter what he did. That why it's called a no fault state.
KING: Dr. Pinsky, is divorce ever healthy?
PINSKY: Sure.
KING: Some people should get divorced.
PINSKY: It's very easy to look at situations where there's overt abuse of one type or another, and somebody's not able to change.
KING: Doesn't it sometimes better the children?
PINSKY: Certainly, it can. Generally, children perceive whole families. They feel responsible.
KING: They take the blame.
PINSKY: They take the blame, even if they don't know it consciously. They're taking it. Divorce has consequences on children for decades to follow.
KING: Why are we all so fascinated with it as a public?
PINSKY: Because it's drama. Healthy people aren't interesting. That's the reality. Even if you look at great plays and great dramas, it's not about healthy people. It's about sick people acting sick. Right now, we're at a particular time in our culture where our own narcissism is getting acted out in the press all the time. We love tearing people down and we love resurrecting them.
KING: You're around unhappy people all the time, aren't you, Mark?
KAPLAN: They don't come to me to can we please go to court and show how happy I am. It never happens. All the time. All the time.
KING: Stacy Schneider, Mark Vincent Kaplan, and, of course, Dr. Drew Pinsky thank you. the talk show host and outspoken comedian Chelsea Handler is here tomorrow night. Here now is Anderson Cooper and "AC 360." Anderson?
