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CNN Larry King Live
Inside the World of Infidelity
Aired April 02, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEFF PROBST, GUEST HOST: Tonight. What do Sandra Bullock, Halle Berry, Christie Brinkley, and Elin Woods have in common? They've all been cheated on.
We talk lies, betrayal, and cover-ups. Is sex addiction a cop- out or an illness that can be cured? Are men worse than women, or are women just as bad?
Questions, answers, and insight into infidelity, next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Good evening. I'm Jeff Probst sitting in for Larry tonight. As you just heard, we're talking about cheaters, why they do it, and if they can ever stop.
Joining us, Dr. Drew Pinsky, star of VH-1's "Celebrity Rehab." He is an addiction-ologist and host of "Love Line." Mary Jo Eustace, her now ex-husband cheated on her with Tori Spelling, and then married the TV star. She is the author of "Divorce Sucks." And Adam Carolla is here, host of the "Adam Carolla Podcast" available on iTunes, also an actor, comic and the former co-host with Dr. Drew of "Love Line."
Nice to have all you guys here.
Mary Jo --
ADAM CAROLLA, HOST, "THE ADAM CAROLLA PODCAST": I got a piece of bad news. He got me, too.
MARY JO EUSTACE, HUSBAND CHEATED ON HER WITH TORI SPELLING: Really?
CAROLLA: Your husband, yes.
EUSTACE: What do you mean he got you?
CAROLLA: It was -- he doesn't just like the ladies.
EUSTACE: He had you too?
CAROLLA: I'm saying --
PROBST: Is this breaking news, Carolla?
EUSTACE: I have to feel better -- CAROLLA: I've talked about it to Drew before. I'm just saying he's cheated more than once. It wasn't just with Tori Spelling.
EUSTACE: Thank you.
CAROLLA: We had a tryst in the late '90s as well.
EUSTACE: That's OK. Well, I feel better about you.
EUSTACE: Let's put it that way. You seem cuter.
PROBST: Mary Jo, doesn't -- you've been through this.
EUSTACE: I have.
PROBST: And seeing it all on the news. Is it -- does it bring it up for you again or are you able to put it behind you?
EUSTACE: It's behind me. But I have to say, you know, this thing with Sandra Bullock, I mean the Tiger Woods things was horrendous. The John Edwards thing was horrendous. But the Sandra Bullock thing really hit -- it hit home with me.
And especially when you would hear people talk about these men cheated and they ran out on their wives, that somehow the women were responsible and they couldn't have been blindsided by this.
PROBST: How did you find out?
EUSTACE: I found out -- of course I called you first.
EUSTACE: But I found out honestly and I've said this quite a few times in a Palm Springs hotel room holding my newly adopted daughter in a bikini. Yes, I need some therapy.
CAROLLA: Why are you dressed in a bikini?
EUSTACE: Well, that's a really good question, but it was just the most surrealistic ---
CAROLLA: It was inappropriate.
EUSTACE: It was. Horrendous moment. And I was completely blindsided. I mean, he had come back from golf and I asked how his golf was. And he said I'm leaving you. And I was like -- you know --
PROBST: So he told you?
EUSTACE: I elicited a little bit because I thought the behavior had been a tad odd. He had been home for about a day and I couldn't get in touch with him when he was doing the movie, but he was only gone for three weeks. PROBST: And unlike a lot of other people, they're celebrities. They're in the news. There's a reality show. Tori writes a book.
Does that bring it up for you all the time or have you able -- are you able to look at that now with distance?
EUSTACE: I -- yes, in some respects. But I have to say initially it was extremely difficult. I mean -- and it still is challenging. I mean, my ex-husband, we got divorced within six months. He was married a month later. And within a couple of months had a reality show proclaiming his new love, and this is the best wife I've ever married.
And it was humiliating. It really was.
PROBST: Drew, it's in the news everywhere. Is -- do you think from your work, is cheating more prolific now? Or are we just hearing about it more because of the media?
DR. DREW PINSKY, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: You know, I think we're -- I think we're going through a phase where we're sort of evaluating it. If you remember, we just came out of the '60s and '70s when it was a time that people were supposed to do whatever made them happy.
If it meant destroying families, just go right ahead. If you're not happy, do something difference. And the nonsense of that way of thinking about things has come to bear on a new generation who had been through the pain and misery of divorce.
Unfortunately because of that, there's no good models for stable relationships. And so people are having difficulty staying in sustained intimate relationships over time. And I think as a culture, we're beginning to look at something that's valuable so we're looking at it, scrutinizing it and reporting it when it does fall apart.
PROBST: Adam, weigh in on this. In the news today Jesse James' friend and attorney said the single most important thing to Mr. James and the children --
CAROLLA: Hold on, you can either be a friend or an attorney. You can't be both unless you're an attorney. Then you can have friends that are attorneys. OK. Friend and attorney.
PROBST: Who says the most important thing to Mr. James and the children is that the marriage somehow survive.
You're a married guy. What are the odds that when you go through this, that it can survive?
CAROLLA: I mean, it's a coin toss, I guess. It's two people. If they both decide they can weather the storm, then they can weather the storm. I mean, personally, you know, what you went through, nobody should have to go through.
I mean, we all hope -- everyone else, you know, out in society, they get married, their ex-moves, the love-ache and that's the end of that. They start having sex with a young bartender and call it a life. But living it, seeing it in the news, the books that are written, the reality shows, that is a form of punishment that nobody should have to endure. So my heart goes out to you.
EUSTACE: I think this is the most sensitive I've ever seen you.
CAROLLA: Yes -- no, I really -- I really mean it.
EUSTACE: That's really sweet. Thank you.
CAROLLA: Listen, the first half of it is the actual emotional part of it that has to do with your partner. And the second half is the public flogging that you take when you turn on the television.
PROBST: Mary Jo --
PROBST: Is there -- where does -- is it anger? What's the emotion?
EUSTACE: I think initially it was helplessness, truthfully. Because I -- yes, I mean, because it was out of the blue. You know, my adoption was jeopardized. It took me a year and a half to finalize my adoption.
I mean, it was one catastrophe after another. And, you know, no pun intended, but I sort of felt I was up against this dynasty. And because she was paying his legal bills, I thought, you know, I could be completely wiped out here.
So it just sort of, you know, kept on going and going. And I think the pinnacle moment was I -- you know, a month into it that I was going to go and, you know, grab a coffee, and I walked down to Ventura Boulevard, and I guess she had just done a new show.
And there were pictures of her on the sidewalk looking up at me. And I just looked at the universe and I thought this is really bizarre.
PINSKY: Jeff, let me just answer a question you asked Adam, though. The data is 85 percent of people that come -- 85 percent of people that come for sex addiction end up staying with their partners. Eighty-five percent.
CAROLLA: Well, except for not in the media. Like if you think about it --
PINSKY: That's the overall number. But that's right. And that's --
CAROLLA: But Sandra Bullock worked at a Starbucks and Jesse James just kept his job turning wrenches, they probably would have a shot at getting back together. Now that she's publicly humiliated by us and everyone who got here before us, now she can't get back together with this guy --
PROBST: You're saying there's almost --
PROBST: Almost an expectation on her to --
CAROLLA: Well, think about it. If we're married --
EUSTACE: I'm not married.
CAROLLA: But let's just say that.
EUSTACE: OK, we are married. OK.
CAROLLA: Let's say we're married.
CAROLLA: And you find out what happened. But neither one of us are public figures, then it's just between the two of us. Maybe you cried to your sister. Maybe I tell a couple of work buddies, but we work it out, and you don't have to walk down the street having people raising eyebrows and casting aspersions.
EUSTACE: Yes. Yes, I mean -- yes.
CAROLLA: If you're Tiger Woods or you're Elin and -- by the way I thought her name was Erin before this. But at least we know her name is Elin, right?
CAROLLA: But you can't get back together because you're humiliated every time you go to a restaurant, every time you go to a movie premier.
EUSTACE: Well, that is a very weird thing and it just sort of happen to me. Your marriage was dissected in a public forum. I mean mine was trashy and low rent. I realize that. But still it was in the tabloids and things I had said and done that I had never done.
And my life was rewritten to make me 60 years old so I'd be sort of the older, bitter wife. And our history was completely -- it was very disorienting, you know? It was really a very odd experience. And to get back together again after all that speculation I think --
PROBST: Very tough.
EUSTACE: I think it would be very tough.
PROBST: Well, men who cheat, Adam, they have to have somebody to cheat with. We're going to meet a former mistress. By the way, this is how affairs start.
CAROLLA: Sure. PROBST: You guys do this fun little flirting thing, next thing you know, we're talking about you.
We're going to talk to a former mistress. We're going to talk to her about why she did what she did, the other woman. That's next.
PROBST: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Jeff Probst sitting in for Larry tonight.
We're talking about cheating. We have Dr. Drew Pinsky, Mary Jo Eustace and Adam Carolla. Joining us now from Bristol, England, Sarah Symonds, an infidelity analyst and founder of "Mistresses Anonymous," also author of the book "Having an Affair: A Handbook for the Other Woman."
All right, Sarah, for every guy who cheats, there is a woman. You've been that woman.
SARAH SYMONDS, FOUNDER, "MISTRESS ANONYMOUS": I have been, many times. I regret to say.
PROBST: Is it really regret? You say many times, and you regret it.
SYMONDS: I do regret it because the biggest person I was fooling was myself. I was believing in men who were lying to me as much as they were lying to their wives. And this is what it's all about.
Forget the sexual side of this. This is a man -- a married man who was cheating on his wife and lying to two women. It's the lies and the deceit that is the really toxic thing here.
PROBST: From all your experience, and now that you're, you know, somewhat of an expert on this -- said with respect -- is there a certain type of woman that you now can tell is likely to become a mistress?
SYMONDS: Well, let's look at the man. There is a certain type of man who cheats, and he pursues another woman like a heat-seeking missile. There are many women out there who are searching for Mr. Right, but they tend to settle for Mr. Convenience rather than Mr. Long-term.
So put that together and it's not rocket science why affairs happen.
PROBST: Dr. Drew, she says there is a certain type of man. Is it in a guy's DNA?
PINSKY: Well, certainly it's in a guy's DNA to have that motivational drive. But to respond to that drive is not necessarily something that men ought to or have to do.
The fact is the longer you're in a sustained intimacy, the deeper that intimacy, the more dividends you derive from it. And so the more likely you are to protect it. What she is talking about is people that get in this love-addicted cycles where they have to go for the unavailable person.
They naturally are attracted to that kind of person. And once they get in a real relationship, if somebody is actually available, that feels too clingy and uncomfortable. And they're the ones who sabotage it.
If you've had boundary violations, abandonment or abuse in childhood, you really are set up for that kind of thing.
PROBST: Sarah, you've written this handbook. What is it you think mistresses need to know?
SYMONDS: They need to know never sleep to with somebody else's husband. My message to any woman watching this show tonight who is thinking of having an affair or is actually having one is to stop, get out, do not date a married man. It's absolutely futile.
Because all he's doing is using you as a crutch for his marriage and his own selfish happiness. And it is in a man's DNA to lie and it is in a man's DNA to cheat. And this -- Mary Jo Eustace and I are against three men here.
And I'm sorry, guys, but men were born to lie. Not all of you will. But you're very good at it.
CAROLLA: I'm not arguing that -- but hold on, that's horrible advice for mistresses, because if you're not doing someone else's husband, you can't be a mistress.
EUSTACE: So what do you do.
CAROLLA: There is a catch-22.
PROBST: So if you want to be a mistress --
PROBST: You have to have an affair.
SYMONDS: He is the one breaking his vows.
EUSTACE: Yes, but so are the women.
CAROLLA: They're going to lose their license.
EUSTACE: So are the women. And, you know, the women are. I mean if you go after a married man, that's pretty abhorrent, I think personally. And I --
SYMONDS: Let me just say something. Can I -- can I --
PROBST: Yes, Sarah, go.
EUSTACE: Yes. Yes.
SYMONDS: -- perception and I want the whole --
PROBST: Break it.
SYMONDS: I want the whole of America to hear this. Right. Nobody can steal another woman's husband. It is impossible to steal another human being. It's called kidnapping, and it's illegal. Now it doesn't make the other woman not at fault. She's an accessory. But that man has decided to break his commitment to his wife and step out of his vows to his wife.
He is the one that's cheating. Do not expect the other woman to feel like a married person should. She's got no responsibilities. She's following the man's lead. He doesn't care about his wife and family at home, why should she? It doesn't make it right, but I'm telling you the facts. This is how it goes down.
PROBST: Sarah, stick around. We've got to talk about this more. We'll take a quick break, come back. We're talking about cheating, LARRY KING LIVE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIGER WOODS, GOLF CHAMPION: Elin and I have started the process of discussing the damage caused by my behavior. As Elin pointed out to me, my real apology to her will not come in the form of words. It will come from my behavior over time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PROBST: We're talking about infidelity, answering some of the most puzzling yet basic questions everybody is asking in light of Tiger Woods and Jesse James' scandals.
Sarah Symonds in Bristol, England, in your handbook or your book about having an affair, you say, "There are many women out there who are being emotionally crucified, as I was. These scorned mistresses have nobody to confide in and have no voice."
But it's a choice to be a mistress. I get that you don't want it now, but it was a choice when you made it.
SYMONDS: But, Jeff, there are so many different types of situations. I hear from women every day, and I was one myself who was also duped. I was in love with a married man whom I did not know was married for about two or three months.
That's just cruel. So my point is the mistress and the wife actually has so much more in common than they can ever know, because they're both sharing half of a married -- half of a man who is lying to them, you know, and he is getting the best of two women. So it comes back to the men again. They are the selfish ones. They are using and abusing two different women.
PROBST: Adam, Sarah is being very clear in saying that she -- you know, that men are hard-wired to cheat. Do you think -- is that true? If given the opportunity, would any guy cheat if he could?
CAROLLA: OK. I think -- I think given the opportunity -- there is a couple of things. And it's a celebrity thing we have to talk about. There is criminals, there is criminals that break into liquor stores and hold up people behind counters, and punch old ladies that ate yams. And then there are people who find wallets.
Celebrities find wallets.
PROBST: What's that got to do with it?
CAROLLA: We're those kinds of criminals. You're at a bar in New York and a couple of hot twins want to go party back at the Bellagio. You go -- I think I jumped states there. But the point is this. I'm going to go back to the room and party at the W. You go with them. That's finding a wallet.
It's another thing to sit around all night on your computer while your wife is taking care of the kids and trawl.
EUSTACE: Does it make a difference?
EUSTACE: The end result is the same.
SYMONDS: That's a man's logic?
CAROLLA: What would you rather? A society where people broke into liquor stores or ones where they found wallets?
PROBST: Sarah, you --
CAROLLA: It's a celebrity thing.
EUSTACE: Well, it's a man thing. I think that --
SYMONDS: I know that but what is he talking about?
EUSTACE: Bad pizza is still pizza. You know?
CAROLLA: There's different forms, though. There are guys I know -- most of the guys I know would not go trawl around for women. On the other hand, if they're at a bar --
PROBST: So you are saying --
PROBST: If given the opportunity, most guys would take it? EUSTACE: They would.
CAROLLA: If it's thrown in -- it's the wallet. About the same percentage that people --
PROBST: Would you?
CAROLLA: -- that pick up the wallet.
PROBST: You're in a bar tonight after the show. We go get a beer.
EUSTACE: Depends how much cash?
CAROLLA: Yes. No, my wife's taping this. So no, I can't. I can't. I can't say yes. But -- no, really --
PROBST: Drew --
SYMONDS: It's what it's called no. Just say no.
CAROLLA: What if the woman is exceedingly beautiful, and you know, what have you.
PROBST: Well, I got to say, Adam --
CAROLLA: It makes a difference.
PROBST: You didn't help the point of the men.
CAROLLA: I didn't. I didn't.
PROBST: With your answer.
CAROLLA: Thank you.
EUSTACE: I agree.
PROBST: Drew -- OK, and Mary Jo, you're a woman and so you got -- and clearly, and a woman who's been through this so it makes sense.
Drew, is there any medical -- anything that says this -- it's in a guy? I asked you this earlier.
PINSKY: Oh no, there's no doubt that men have a drive for diversity. There is -- it's certainly in our genes.
PROBST: But from your studies with your narcissism tests and all these things you've done.
PINSKY: Are men more likely to do this than women? A little bit more, but not as much as you might think. But from a biological drive standpoint and a pure drive for sex, yes, men have that more hard- wired into them than women. But that doesn't mean they're necessarily more likely to cheat.
EUSTACE: We're so fundamentally different, men and women, especially biologically. And you know, we were discussing this. Like marriage initially was commerce. It was a deal. You got a cow or a dowry.
Now we sort of look at marriage and relationship as encompassing all these different variables. And I just don't know it's humanely possible. Like I -- I really do believe, you know, if a man can get away with cheating, he will.
I believe it's different for a woman. I'm not saying men are dogs or pigs. I didn't say that.
PROBST: Sort of.
EUSTACE: No, but I did so --
PINSKY: The one in England said that. Let's be fair.
EUSTACE: Well, she said that. But --
PROBST: Sarah --
CAROLLA: You married a cow, not a dog or a pig.
PROBST: Sarah, last question before we go to break. What's your take on the mistress who got the settlement -- no, the wife who got the $9 million settlement from the mistress?
SYMONDS: What a load of rubbish. It should be the mistress suing the husband and actually the wife suing the husband, too. He is the one that's lying to them. You know? I mean maybe the mistress should sue the husband and the husband sue the wife for the alienation of affection.
Maybe the wife stopped giving her husband attention, you know? It's --
PROBST: Sarah, thanks for being with us.
SYMONDS: Why the mistress?
PROBST: You're a great guest. We got to let you go.
When is it time to spy on a spouse? Somebody who does that for a living. They spy on spouses, next.
PROBST: "Idol" fans, if you're an "American Idol" fan, I want to remind you about a blog interview with the latest "American Idol" cast off, Didi Benami. See why she compares the show to summer camp. You can go to CNN.com/Larryking and check it out.
Now back to tonight's topic, infidelity. We're now joined by Sandra Hope, the founder and president of Mate Check PI. Also the star of FOX Reality Channel's "Sex, Decoy, Love Stings."
Sandra, what do you do?
SANDRA HOPE, FOUNDER, MATE CHECK, P.I.: I'm a private investigator, and I started the decoy service. And the decoy service a little bit different than surveillance. That's where if somebody thinks somebody might be cheating, we take all the surveillance and the wondering out of that.
We wire up a decoy and we send them in and see if given the opportunity, if the --
PROBST: You're talking about going into a bar or a restaurant and trying to befriend somebody and see if they'll take the bait.
HOPE: Exactly. Exactly like we're talking about now, that situation. So however -- like if we would -- if I would have been called by Sandra Bullock and said hey, my husband Jesse, he may be cheating on me, then I would have called him up at his bike shop, hey, I want to come in. It's one of his ads. And I would have gone as a decoy and found out right then that he would in fact cheat.
PROBST: Is it typically women who hire you, or is it both?
HOPE: It's both. I have both clients, absolutely. But you know, I just wanted to tell you that this whole situation that we're in with the Tiger Woods and the Sandra Bullock, it's an old problem, but with a new solution.
And this problem that has been going on --
PROBST: What is the solution?
HOPE: Well, the problem, first of all, I don't know why men have not learned after the Bill Clinton situation with Monica Lewinsky, that now us women have decided instead of going after bars, going places, trying to find rich guys to pay for things, and give you money, let's go after wealthy people, politicians, people we can blackmail.
PROBST: You're saying they need to wise up.
HOPE: They need to wise up. You know, Jesse, if he was an average common worker, say Jack in the box, not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's what he had. He had an average apartment and he went to a bar, I really doubt he'd go home with any woman to have sex.
PROBST: Yes, it's the celebrity angle.
HOPE: He's riding on Sandra Bullock's coattails.
PROBST: Let's take a look. Hold on, Adam. Hold on. Before (INAUDIBLE), let's catch people up on what we're talking about. Take a clip from FOX's Reality Channels "Sex Decoy Love Stings," Sandra in action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, right here. I was really nervous, but I had to get Matt inside the hotel room. I opened the door and got out of there by saying I needed to get something from the front desk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kidding me? Are you kidding me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jody hired us to find out what's been going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is it? You tried to set me up? Is that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) this is?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You put someone on the back of the bike. You -- (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A hotel?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAROLLA: That's wonderful.
PROBST: You were engrossed watching that clip.
EUSTACE: Couldn't take his eyes off of it.
CAROLLA: Well, listen. I'm not a drug addict. But if somebody handed me a joint, I'd do it. And if the cops walked in when I put it to my lips, then I'd get busted.
CAROLLA: I wouldn't go to the park and score.
PROBST: I'm going to stick up for the other side which is I don't believe that every -- I believe there are guys out there that a woman like Sandra would come up and they say no, I'm married. I'm in love with my wife and I'm not interested. I'm getting the feeling right now nobody thinks that possible.
HOPE: Yes, that's definitely possible.
CAROLLA: Shut up.
PROBST: OK. Hold on. She's the expert.
HOPE: It's definitely possible.
PROBST: Sandra, how many guys take the bait and how many turn you down?
HOPE: Well, I'm not a good person to ask that, because when you call a private investigator to go out and find out if your significant other is cheating, there is already signs. So the people are not calling me obviously don't have signs or don't feel that their relationship has changed any. So it's a little different with me.
PROBST: So it's front loaded already but what's the percentage. How many --
HOPE: Ninety-nine percent.
HOPE: Probably 99.9.
PROBST: Ninety-nine out of 100 people say --
HOPE: Absolutely. Because they already have signs. They're already cheating. And like I said, this has been going on forever. Women have been using guys for money.
CAROLLA: If you were unattractive, what would the percentage be?
HOPE: You guys don't care.
CAROLLA: I could go down the hall and find someone and lower that percentage way lower than 99 percent.
HOPE: Well, I could --
CAROLLA: Of course, that's my point. It's based on the bait.
HOPE: You can't base it on the bait.
CAROLLA: Yes, and 20 years from now, if you go out and try to do this with a guy, it's going to be 59 percent.
HOPE: You've never woke up and --
CAROLLA: And 10 years after that it's going to be 39 percent. It's all based on the bait.
HOPE: You've never woke -- when you were single, you never woke up in the morning after taking a girl home from the bar and look at her and go oh my god, what did I bring home? Of course.
CAROLLA: I'm not saying guys won't do ugly chicks. I'm saying not at 99 percent.
PROBST: I'm going to let you guys continue this while we go to break. There is --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) or CNN.
PROBST: Believe it or not, there is more to come. There is a Web site that helps people find others to cheat with. LARRY KING LIVE will be right back.
PROBST: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Jeff Probst sitting in for Larry tonight. Dr. Drew Pinsky is with us, Mary Jo Eustace, and Adam Carolla are still with us. We're joined by Noel Biderman, the CEO and spokesperson for AshleyMadison.Com. Ashley Madison's motto, "life is short, have an affair."
Noel, how many members do you have at Ashley Madison?
NOEL BIDERMAN, CEO ASHLEYMADISON.COM: Jeff, we have about 5.5 million members in Canada and the U.S. It's pretty dramatic. Our numbers have tripled in the last two years alone.
PROBST: What is the breakdown men to women?
BIDERMAN: It's about 70 percent male, 30 percent female. It doesn't matter what state we're in, what city we're in, that tends to be the ratio just about statewide, countrywide.
PROBST: And are you able to monitor clearly, with five million users, there is interest -- but are you able to monitor how much activity, how many people are actually meeting?
BIDERMAN: No, that's not our role. Our role is to kind of facilitate the introduction. We built the service because I came across some great data that suggested that 30 to 35 percent of people were going to singles dating sites were actually already in relationships. So I just thought maybe they would prefer a community of their own.
But I don't know what happens offline. For the most part, I'm assuming they're meeting. But we're the introductory platform. PROBST: Mary Jo, can you appreciate this now, having been through it, that there is a real -- this is a real thing? Or does it just bring it back once again?
EUSTACE: Well, first of all, what a romantic lovely idea that he has come up with. It's just fantastic. Sort of playing on people's misery. No, it doesn't bring it back to me personally, but it sort of goes to my point that I think that if there is the opportunity and there is things that can facilitate it, I do think that people will take that opportunity.
And, you know, that's how people have access, right, the Internet. There are so many different forums to meet people and to hook up, you know. And he's got 5.5 million?
PROBST: Drew, you look like you just heard the worst news. You're shake your head.
PINSKY: I'm sighing. It's really sad to me that we live in a time of such profound disorder in our relationships. Intimacy is something that we have no model for. So many of these people -- the huge numbers have intimacy disorders. I know all my peers are out there screaming at their television, hoping for me to speak up here, because this is what we deal with every day in our couples counseling, in our individual session.
Humans today come from such ruptured, dysfunctional, problematic family systems that they don't have the slightest idea of how to get anything out of a relationship other than sex. It's a disaster four or kids, disaster for our families. And it's really a problem for our emotional lives.
CAROLLA: Listen, get off your soap box. We're living in a time -- it's been going on --
CAROLLA: TMZ has made it really bad. We just didn't know about it before. Every president, every dignitary, all of Europe, please.
PROBST: Let me clarify something. It sounded to me like you're saying that this rise -- even Noel said the last couple of years it's ballooned -- that this rise is due to a different problem, and that it's not really now about cheating and the sex. That's all there is to hold on to.
PINSKY: Adam, you and I hate the '70s. To me, this is all a product of the '70s, when there was -- sexuality was a recreation. It was unrestrained. It was disconnected from our emotional lives. Families were ruptured. People were able to do whatever they wanted to do to make them happy. No one was raised in a stable system of intimacy. So now that's all being acted out.
It's the '60s and the '70s, I'm sorry to say, that brought us such dysfunction.
EUSTACE: Can I ask a question?
PINSKY: Just one second. Agree with me on that.
PROBST: Hold on. We're going to go back to Noel for a second. Is true that the most popular days on the website is after Valentines, after New Year's and all these big emotional couple holidays?
BIDERMAN: Yeah, absolutely. People accuse me all of the time of promoting infidelity, as if my 30 second TV commercial is going to convince anyone to have an affair. They have affairs when life isn't working for them. We see that time and time again. When expectation isn't met, whether that's after the weekend, after the New Year's, after Valentine's Day, that's when people gravitate towards my service. Life leads them there, not my website.
PROBST: And I got a question. What does this appear on the credit card? What does it say?
BIDERMAN: It doesn't say Ashley Madison.
EUSTACE: But here is the question I'd like to ask Dr. Drew. If this was available 150 years ago, before the '60s and the '70s, if you could have access to this type of technology in society, would people still be doing this? Is it just -- if the access is there and the biological need and the human desire for connection, would there still be this type of epidemic?
PINSKY: There would be a tendency towards this in some percentage of the population always. Nobody has a perfect sense of themselves in a relationship. People make mistakes. People get themselves in situations that aren't working. Absolutely.
But we have much greater potential, much more opportunity, and much more culture --
CAROLLA: Here -- let me explain what is going on.
PROBST: We're going to go to break. Hold that thought, Adam, hold it. Right there.
CAROLLA: I shall. You said thought, didn't you?
PROBST: Yes. Are some people's brains hard-wired, making them destined to cheat --
CAROLLA: He said hard.
PROBST: -- from the day they're born? That's Adam Carolla. This is LARRY KING LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PROBST: What can someone's brain tell us about infidelity? Dr. Daniel Amen is here with us. A little insight, he's a psychiatrist and brain imaging expert, also author of "Change Your Brain, Change Your Body." Daniel, so is it true, can you tell just by looking at somebody's brain if they are likely to cheat?
DR. DANIEL AMEN, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, we certainly can tell whether or not they're more likely to cheat based on the function of their prefrontal cortex. So the front part of your brain is the brain's break. It helps you think before you do things, and then it stops you from doing things that may not be good for you. So if the prefrontal cortex is low in activity, you are less likely to have control over your impulses.
PROBST: Are there different kinds of cheaters?
AMEN: Well, you know, it's one of the most interesting things I've seen from doing -- we've done 55,000 scans at the Amen Clinics over the last 20 years. And what we have found is that cheaters, like people who have depression or people that have ADD, are not one thing. So there are compulsive cheaters, people who just can't stop it. They think about it all the time. Versus impulsive cheaters. who don't really think about it, but, given the opportunity, they'll certainly take advantage of it.
PROBST: Can you change the brain of a cheater?
AMEN: Yes. I mean, it's the most exciting thing that I've seen. I wrote a book called "Change Your Brain, Change Your Life." What we find, if you have low activity in the brain, there are certain medicines or some supplements or treatments we can do to raise it to give you better impulse control. If you have too much activity in your brain, which is what we see in our compulsive people, through medicine or supplements or certain kinds of treatments, we can calm it down and decrease the repetitive thinking patterns.
It's very exciting. And when you optimize someone's brain, you really help them live a more effective life.
PROBST: Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Jeff, there is a lot of research in my area, too, in terms of recovery doing these same things. It's a little non-specific to use medication. But the 12-step recovery process has been well shown, with sustained recovery, that people's drive, the compulsive addictive drive goes down. Their prefrontal cortical function goes up. Their neural integration gets improved. That's really the world I work in.
And that's what we do with these guys. We try to bring them -- I tell you what. It's an interpersonal experience that allows for that healing, meaning closeness, intimacy, that creates the possibility of healing these brains and their behaviors.
CAROLLA: I have a question for Dr. Drew. I'm going to don the Larry suspenders for one second. Celebrities, athletes, people that are driven, already focus and motivated, a higher percentage of cheating or is it just opportunity?
PINSKY: A higher percentage of trauma, and thereby a much higher percentage of the kinds of things Dr. Amen is talking about in their brains.
PROBST: Dr. Amen, when you -- I think a lot of people look at someone like Tiger Woods, so controlled. That's what he was known for, the calm golfer. And then all this chaos in the other part of his life. Does that show up, or is there an explanation based on the brain?
AMEN: You know, what I would say is people who are celebrities, who are very successful, well, they're always getting the pleasure center of their brain stimulated. So it's stimulated repeatedly. You know, you win a Masters. You win another tournament. People talk about how wonderful you are. You get tens of millions dollars of contracts.
Well, pretty soon, the pleasure center in your brain starts to get warn out. And it takes more and more and more excitement in order to feel anything at all. So I think that's one of the things that celebrities have to worry about.
But what I'm very afraid of is we're giving children these high excitement video games early on. And I've never seen -- because I'm also a child psychiatrist -- more children complaining of being bored. When I was growing up, I never said I was bored. And now kids all the time say they're being bored. And I think it's because we're wearing our pleasure centers out. And we need to be careful with that.
PROBST: All right. Stick around. Dr. Amen is going to stick around. Bring your partner into the room. We have a bit of an infidelity check. That might be a little bit of an over-sale. But we have something you can do with your partner, and you will not look at anybody the same way after you see that. That's next. Be right back.
PROBST: All right. We are talking about infidelity. Dr. Amen is with us in California. Doctor, I'm going to get -- we're all going to hold our hands up. Not in front of your face, but right near them. Dr. Amen, tell me what we're looking for here, and why this is some indicator of if you might cheat.
PINSKY: The short fourth finger and all that.
PROBST: I don't know if the doctor can hear us.
CAROLLA: Oh, that's what you're doing.
AMEN: If your fourth finger is longer than your second finger, what that means is that you got a lot of testosterone in your mother's womb.
PROBST: Adam Carolla.
CAROLLA: Dr. Drew.
AMEN: And you're more likely to cheat.
PROBST: So you're saying -- both Adam and Drew, fourth finger longer than their second finger. Mary Jo and I are much more balanced people. We don't have this. And you're saying it is testosterone based and that's an indicator?
AMEN: I'm not saying this. This is research actually from England, that has been replicated. The more testosterone you got in utero, the more likely you are to have ADD, so attention deficit disorder, and the more likely you are to be unfaithful in your relationship.
PROBST: And, of course, right on cue, Carolla is now going, silly test, means nothing.
CAROLLA: What do these doctors know?
PROBST: Drew, how important is testosterone in this?
PINSKY: Listen, testosterone is a drug. Young males are under the influence of a drug. They're in a testosterone storm. That's when they're at their highest probability of doing things that they regret, frankly, whether because of aggression or because of infidelity.
EUSTACE: Isn't that so primal? It goes back to the argument that maybe it is just in us; it's just in the way that your brain is built up. And, you know, you were talking about --
AMEN: I don't agree with that.
PROBST: With what?
AMEN: A lot of people talk about that, oh, men, are just going to cheat. There is actually very good research that there are some men that are one-night stand artists. If they sleep with someone, if just absolutely doesn't matter if that's the next woman they sleep with.
There are a whole group of other men that are faithful, that they don't think about wandering, and part of that is testosterone, and part of it has to do with a very interesting set of hormones, Oxytocin and vasopressin and how they're distributed in the brain.
There is just the most fascinating research on voles, little prairie dogs. There is one vole that if they have sex with their partner, that's it. They're done. They're going to have sex with that person, that vole for the rest of their lives. But there's another one, they look the same, they're called Montane Voles. If they have sex with another vole, it just absolutely doesn't matter if that's the vole they have sex with again. I think that's true for men and women. There are some people, they're just wired to be faithful. There are other people, they really struggle with it.
PINSKY: I would say a lot of that wiring is very much affected by our attachment styles and early childhood experiences. I certainly treat hundreds of people where I see that's true.
PROBST: You're saying the brain scans may in fact show evidence of something, but it is influenced by the nurturing in our life?
PINSKY: Genes do not mean destiny. And these biological phenomenon are real, and they create biological drives in certain directions. But the brain is an integrated function that has lots of other complexities.
PROBST: In your work with sex addicts -- by the way, is that -- you get asked this all the time, it is not just --
PINSKY: We have a show.
CAROLLA: It is like asking a guy who removes black mold if it is a real problem. Of course, it is his job. That's what he does.
PROBST: So to my question, is -- in your work with sex addicts --
PROBST: -- do you see proof that, yes, someone can be a person who was a cheater or did cheat and now doesn't? Has changed their way?
PINSKY: They absolutely do. Changing human behavior is one of the most difficult things we ever do. Sustained changed behavior is really difficult, particularly when it is compulsive driven behavior.
CAROLLA: You cured that one guy from his sex addition.
PINSKY: Which guy?
CAROLLA: The guy that died in the motorcycle --
PINSKY: He was cured. He was cured. But the reality is if people -- they do relapse, if they don't do daily work, just like with every other addiction. It is a hard thing to sustain. People do change but it is tough.
PROBST: Is there a good way to tell your mate that you are in fact a cheater? We'll talk about that next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MARK SANFORD (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The bottom line is this, I've been unfaithful to my wife.
JENNY SANFORD, EX-WIFE OF MARK SANFORD: I literally was in shock. I mean, my stomach was -- felt gut punched. I was shaking. The thought went through my mind -- I mean, I was literally stunned. What do you do? I don't know. I really had believed in this man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PROBST: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. We're talking about infidelity. Mary Jo, is there any kind of a good way to tell your partner you've been cheating?
EUSTACE: Well, preferably not through a reality show or the tabloids. That was tough. That wasn't optimum. I think that honesty is good. I think that that sort of helps the equation. But I -- I think the act of betrayal for women and men, too, is so huge and such a long process to get over that, especially if you are blind sided by something like this.
CAROLLA: I like when women do this one, though, it is not that you cheated, it is that you lied. Really? The part about humping a stranger doesn't --
PROBST: How many people actually come forward before they get caught?
PINSKY: It depends on the situation. Very few. It is like other addictions. People come to a treatment for addiction, come to attention because it blossoms to the point where they have consequences. They get legal problems, interpersonal problems, job problems, then they find out about the truth.
EUSTACE: You know these guys want to get caught, like Jesse James and Tiger Woods, with the text messages. It was so wreckless.
PINSKY: They're in the moment. They're not thinking. They're in denial. That's how powerful denial is. They're not thinking about the consequence of what they're doing.
CAROLLA: Let me paint one of my wonderful analogies for you guys.
CAROLLA: I contend there is not more cheaters, but we're more advanced. For instance, you used to just suspect. Now you have text messaging, and things with time and date codes and stamps on it. It used to be a guy were BS artists. And you guys aren't as smart as we are, and we used to be able to fool you. But now you have transcripts with date and times on them. No, how many guys got out of cheating --
EUSTACE: How stupid are you guys with the text messages and leaving a trail? That's not so smart either.
CAROLLA: Are there more speeders now or do cops have better radar guns? There is a camera in every intersection. There's a plane flying over every stretch of highway. Everyone has a radar gun and everyone is getting caught.
PROBST: Mary Jo, do you see it in your personal life? Do you have friends that are going through this more now than a decade ago?
EUSTACE: You know what I'm finding in my personal lives, if you're talking about relationships breaking up, the women saying I'm done, and there is not a third person involved. If you're actually talking about a relationship --
PINSKY: They end before they cheat.
EUSTACE: They're not cheating. They're ending the marriage because the marriage isn't working any more for them.
PINSKY: I agree with that. Women are more likely to feel autonomous and empowered and get out of marriages. Yes.
PROBST: Here is what we learned tonight: brain scans can tell you if you're likely to be a cheater. If your fourth finger is longer than your second finger, you might be a cheater. And Adam thinks most guys will cheat. And Dr. Drew, you think there is hope that you can change.
PINSKY: There is hope.
PROBST: Mary Jo, you're on the fence.
EUSTACE: I'm on the fence. But they're both such lovely men that the possibility I might meet somebody like Dr. Drew or Adam has put faith back in my life.
PROBST: Both of whom are married.
EUSTACE: I know.
PROBST: Thanks, Larry, for letting me sit in tonight. Jane Fonda is Larry's guest on Monday. It is now time for "AC 360."