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CNN Larry King Live
Lohan Gets Sentenced to Jail Time; Interview With DNC Chairman Tim Kaine
Aired July 06, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, braking news, Lindsey Lohan cracks after she sentenced to 90 days in the slammer.
LINDSAY LOHAN, ACTRESS: I'm not taking this as a joke. It's my life.
KING: We got the exclusive with Lindsay's father, Michael.
Plus, some Republicans are calling for their party chairman, Michael Steele, to quit after controversial remarks about Afghanistan. DNC chairman, Tim Kaine, is here, reacting publicly for the first time in all of this.
And then, a missing boy bombshell. Did the stepmother of little Kyron Horman try to hire a hitman to kill her husband, the child's father. Sensational twist in this case from the reporter who broke the story next on LARRY KING LIVE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Good evening. A reminder, Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, will be here tomorrow night. It's a prime time exclusive. Prime Minister Netanyahu, tomorrow night, for the full hour.
Lindsay Lohan has been ordered to serve 90 days in jail for missing alcohol counseling session and violation of probation. She has to surrender July 20th. Michael Lohan is Lindsay Lohan's father. He was in the courtroom today. He'll be with us tonight. Lisa Bloom is his attorney. And we, as well, welcome addiction expert, dr. Drew Pinsky, the host of "Celebrity rehab" on VH-1. Here's Lindsey in court hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOHAN: In terms of going more than once in a week, some people -- I know that I was ordered to go once a week, and I wasn't -- you know, I wasn't missing the classes just to hang out or to do anything like that I was working, mostly in -- I was working with children. It wasn't a vacation. It wasn't some sort of a joke. And I respect your order, and I have been taking it seriously. And I appreciate the program system so much to help me finish early because I wanted to make sure that I would come back here making you happy and the court system and show that I meant everything I put into it, and going more than once in a week, I would try to do that only because I have to work the (ph) next week.
I figured, and as far as I knew, they were OK with this, and I was still in compliance that if I did three in a week or two in a week, it would make up for the fact that if I had to work the next week, then that's why I wouldn't be there, because I've already done them now. So, I thought, as far as I knew, that was in compliance. Had I not known that I had been, you know, taken aside and told that in detail, then that would have been a different story. I'm not taking this as a joke. It's my life, and it's my career and something I've worked for my entire life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: That statement was made, by the way, before she was sentenced to the 90 days. We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, Michael Lohan, who has just arrived, he sped here and he's on his way in you can walk right in, Michael, and grab a seat. As well, we welcome Lisa Bloom, who is the attorney for Michael Lohan and Dr. Drew Pinsky, the host of "Celebrity Rehab" on VH-1. Michael, thank you for rushing over. I appreciate t.
MICHAEL LOHAN, LINDSAY'S FATHER: Thank you for having me.
KING: What's your reaction to the sentence?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Dismay, but at the same time, a little satisfaction that she is going to a rehab, but the last thing in the world I want to was for my daughter to go to jail.
KING: You think 90 days was harsh?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Mr. King --
KING: Call me Larry.
MICHAEL LOHAN: Larry, any time in jail is harsh, especially for a young lady like Lindsay that doesn't need jail. I've been there myself, and I know jail didn't do anything for me with my addictions. It was going -- taking a drug program seriously. I'm sorry. I'm just out of breath a little bit, a little upset.
KING: I know. I'll come back to you. Lisa, you're an attorney. You're the attorney for Michael. Was the sentence in keeping with this kind of reaction to breaking probation?
LISA BLOOM, MICHAEL LOHAN'S ATTORNEY: We were in the courtroom all day. It was a very emotional day for Michael, certainly for Lindsay and for everybody in that courtroom. The fact is that Lindsay was given a number of chances by the judge, and the last time around, she was told in no uncertain terms, she had to go to these alcohol classes once per week, and her own attorney had to concede that she missed a number of those classes. So, the judge felt it was right to incarcerate her. On behalf of Michael, look, no father wants to see his daughter go to jail.
And as an attorney, I don't see the benefit of sending addicts to jail when they haven't hurt anyone. Lindsay's only been hurting herself. The problem is, Larry, that in Michael's view, she got a problem with prescription drugs, and she's being subjected to random drug testing now. But that excludes the prescription drugs, and the judge even said that in court today. If she goes to jail, Larry, she can still take prescription drugs even in jail. When she gets out of jail, she can still continue to take prescription drugs even in rehab. So, that's really the albatross that no one's addressing.
KING: Wasn't she, though, harshly treated because she drove under the influence and that could kill somebody?
BLOOM: It certainly could, but the fact is and in this case, it didn't, and DUIs are treated very differently under the law when there's an accident causing injury and when there is no injury.
MICHAEL LOHAN: Can I say something?
KING: Yes, go ahead.
MICHAEL LOHAN: Sir, I got my first DWI, hit a telephone pole going 80 miles an hour. I got 1/3 to four years. That's a harsh sentence. I did my time. I appealed it, and I want my appeal, and I got out. I stayed on probation for 24 months, for two years. I was urine tested every single week. I had to go in. I lived up to every one of the mandates put upon me. The problem here is this, Lisa, Dr. Drew, and myself have been telling everybody that this girl needs a rehab. She needs help. He wanted to help her. He offered it to her a long time ago.
If Lindsay's lawyer and Lindsay would have just listened to us, she would have been in a rehab, she would have been on her way to being clean and sober and have her life back. Instead, she got jail and -- jail and rehab.
KING: Let's take another look. We'll bring Dr. Drew in a minute. Lindsay in court today. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOHAN: I take responsibility for my actions, and I've tries to do the best that I can in the past few weeks since I was here last, which is the only time I've been in you know, present in front of a judge in any of my situation in terms of this specific case. This is the only time I've actually, you know -- and honestly, it did wake me up, yes, of course, it scared me. And it also confused me because I was there thinking that it was OK that I missed those classes. I felt -- I didn't -- had I known differently, again, like I said, I would have taken it.
You know, I would have made sure that I was in town each week, and I would have balance my work around that because I'd rather, you know, be working in the long run are after all I've been dealing with this kind of thing for the rest of my life. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Why do we arrest addicts, doctor?
DR. DREW PINSKY, ADDICTIONOLOGIST: They hurt other people. They hurt themselves. It's a desperate measure when we bring legal action.
KING: The only reason to arrest be a DUI because she did kill someone? Other than that --
PINSKY: Possession. People get arrested for possession, for misuse, for disorderly conduct. You know, these are victimless crimes, but the reality is though, out of desperation sometimes, you'd be surprised. Although, I agree with everything that Michael and Lisa are saying that you don't treat addiction with jail. That's not how you treat it. Yet, as a last-ditch measure, sometimes, people find sobriety when they lose their freedom, they do. They get their attention. It seems like this judge did focus. She seemed to kind of understand what she was doing in giving treatment after the punitive measure.
The question is, though, and this one sure scaring you is that, I think what Michael was pointing out by him having gone through so much himself and really still not getting the message, sometimes, you can become more rigid in your denial and more rigid in your on your abstinence against capitulating to the treatment process when something like jail is put before you.
KING: Can she get out before 90 days?
BLOOM: She certainly can, Larry. The L.A. jails are very overcrowded, as you know. The last time she was sentenced to 96 hours, she served 84 minutes.
KING: How many days?
BLOOM: She can be out in -- I mean, I don't want to guess, but she could be out in days or weeks because a nonviolent misdemeanor offender like Lindsay would be the first type of person to be released.
KING: More in a moment. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back. Michael, she's been in rehab, hasn't she?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Yes, sir.
KING: Didn't work?
MICHAEL LOHAN: No. As I was just saying to Dr. Drew, she went in on a couple of different kinds of prescription medications, and she came out on nine. And that's the problem. We both addressed that. I'm sure you understand that.
KING: Why are you two not friendly?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Because I represent what's right in her life. I've been through it. One thing I didn't elaborate on before that's really, really important is that when I went through the incarceration process, I stuffed everything inside. I had to go through getting stabbed and glass put in my food. I never told anyone, didn't do anything about it. I just went through it and made my way through. I became a chameleon. You stuff so much inside, and it's still there. That's what I'm afraid is going to happen to her.
KING: And she is mad at you, why?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Because I'm speaking out, like I am today.
BLOOM: And I'll tell you another reason, because Michael has been urging her to go to rehab for a long time, Larry. He does not take her out partying. He does not take her out drinking like some others who are close to her do. He's been a very consistent message. And I have tried on his behalf, behind-the-scenes to get her to go to rehab, to avoid what would happen today because we knew this would ultimately happed. She didn't want to hear that message
KING: She's an extraordinary talent.
MICHAEL LOHAN: Yes.
BLOOM: Absolutely.
PINSKY: That's a liability, Larry. That's what so many of my parents get into is a cycle where they make a lot of money for people. They're incredibly talented. Robert Downey being really the poster child for this until he disappeared for couple years and focused only on his treatment and the sobriety. That's all he did for two years, then he could reemerge and his talent could prevail.
KING: Jane Fonda told me. She is one of best actresses she's worked with?
MICHAEL LOHAN: I've watched this girl from the minute when she auditioned screen test for "The Parent Trap," and I never really saw her ability.
KING: She's angry with you, though, Dr. Drew. And here's some of the things Lindsay has tweeted about you. He is a quack and a sellout. Please tell him to stop. I thought real doctors talk to patients in offices behind closed doors. He's such a loser. He's not a real doctor. He is a celebrity doctor. How do you respond?
PINSKY: I've never treated her --
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Never met Michael?
PINSKY: I never met Michael until today. And I was sitting two seats away from Lindsay at the MTV Movie Awards. And I was going to reach out and say, you know, I'm really -- if I have caused you distress that was not my intent at all. I apologize and I hope you find, (INAUDIBLE) available, anybody else, referral, I hope you find your way into a better situation because I really believe that Lindsay is going to be a great recovering person some day. She just got this one disease. I mean, she got addiction, and people that are rich and interesting and intelligent and have lots of talent, they make great recovering people, but how far down do they have to go and how much --
KING: What was the point, though, about you commenting on someone you don't know?
PINSKY: I don't quite know. I mean, people make comments --
KING: And her point is she's not a patient.
PINSKY: I think commentary about people that I see in the media, just people ask me my opinion what we might be looking at in the media, just the way to politically how those will look at what might be going on.
BLOOM: Dr. Drew has said that she needs rehab. Anyone who says that becomes an enemy.
PINSKY: She's been in treatment before. You can't be in treatment without diagnosis of addiction. We see somebody whose life is spiraling a bit. That means they need more treatment.
MICHAEL LOHAN: Today, we're just going to be picture in both of us with dots (ph) on our forehead.
KING: How long are you clean now?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Since February 23, 2004.
KING: Here is the judge handing down the sentence. Watch. I'm sorry, we lost the sound. But basically, I guess you're all in agreement with the sentence, right? I mean, you don't like jail time, but she apparently --
PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE). That's the nice part of this treatment and evaluation. I agree with Lisa, though, the prescription issue if she is on -- it's not all prescription drugs are bad for addicts, but there are certain prescription drugs that if people on their diseases still active, and they cannot, underline cannot establish sobriety like that. The other issue is what we look for in people, they're getting successful treatment what we call capitulation. And what I think, I'm sure Michael agrees, you see Lindsay fighting, fighting, denying, obfuscating, and trying to get away from this as opposed just like, OK, what --.
KING: Michael is she a danger to herself?
MICHAEL LOHAN: I think we've seen evidence of that with the cutting and the self-mutilation. When you go and you're on prescription medication and go out and you do have a drink or you do a line of cocaine or whatever, you don't know if that could be your last. I think Dr. Drew is right, with regard to having a bottom but my concern for so long, until that scram bracelet went on her ankle, was today going to be her last day. And that's why I was reaching out.
BLOOM: And I don't want there to be misinterpretation that Michael and I think the sentence was appropriate because we don't. And we sent a letter to the court today. We sent one previously, begging the court not to incarcerate her because I'm a pragmatist, Larry. What message does it send to someone if they go to jail for 84 minutes or four day and a half?
KING: You said she was adhering to the law, right? She was --
BLOOM: Of course. The judge had the discretion to do it. I just think, pragmatically, what good does it do to send someone to jail for such a short period of time that it becomes a joke.
KING: What would happen, Michael, if you went to her tonight and hugged her?
MICHAEL LOHAN: I don't know. Maybe, I'll try.
KING: Why not?
MICHAEL LOHAN: I'd like to, but the last time I did that, she had her friends around and wound up with --
BLOOM: He has tried. I've been there. He tried today. Brought her some water today in the courtroom, she was asking for water. Nobody could do it. Michael left.
KING: Did she take it?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Yes, sir.
KING: As we go to break, here is the clip of the judge handing down the sentence, hopefully.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE MARSHA REVEL: Defendant is ordered to spend 30 days in jail on the reckless driving case, 30 days in jail on the first DUI case consecutive, and 30 days in jail on the second DUI case, consecutive that's 90 days in jail.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Michael Lohan, you've been through all of this. What would you rule today? What would you have said from the bench?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Mandated six months or longer in an in-patient treatment facility that knows what they're doing, a facility that will take her off all the drugs, the prescriptions, and otherwise, and then give her life back.
KING: You know such a facility? BLOOM: Yes, we've written a letter to the court, Larry. And we write it again today. Michael spent a lot of time in effort finding the program for her. Different than what she's been to before. It will be in long island. It's a very private program.
KING: Long Island, New York?
BLOOM: Yes. We want to keep it private. Keep her away from the paparazzi, but it will be near her family. They can offer the first time, for the first time have family therapy together. Michael represented to the court. He would make that his number one priority. So, we're hoping that's what gets ordered.
KING: Do the paparazzi, Dr. Pinsky, add to the problem?
PINSKY: Certainly, they don't make it better. I mean, it adds to that sense of specialness and the sense of distractions from the work at hand, which is a very humble, quiet, slow process.
KING: They don't care about Lindsay?
PINSKY: They don't care. They just here about the pictures.
BLOOM: They swarm her.
PINSKY: Yes. I mean, it just creates more chaos. Just the last thing in the world she needs. But let me just say, people looking for treatment program. Hazelton is sort of the gold standard for addiction treatment out there across the country. That work is all over the place (ph).
KING: You recommend that?
PINSKY: The Hazelton. I recommend that. There are various programs out there, but there are many, many other good programs out there as well.
KING: Think she can do it, Michael? Do you think, really, she can do it?
MICHAEL LOHAN: I know she can do it. I don't think she can. I know she can. She's an intelligent girl. She got drive when she puts her mind to something. She can do anything in the world, but the question is, was she ready and is she ready? I think she is going to be forced to make a decision now when she is -- the reality is starting to set in. And I made some phone calls to her, her mom and my son, Michael, and hopefully, even before, she gets sentenced, she will start the process --
KING: How close is she with her mother?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Very close.
KING: And her brother?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Very close. KING: So, you're the one that's estranged? It would be mean --
MICHAEL LOHAN: Not so close.
BLOOM: But he is very close with his other children.
MICHAEL LOHAN: All of them. With the exception of what happened today, and I must say this, my daughter, Alianna who's out here with Lindsay today, has been out here for a little while, was with Lindsay today, and she was in the courtroom. And everything was great last night. We're going to have lunch today after court, and we hoped everything would go well.
And unfortunately, someone had given Ali the letter that we sent to the court saying that Lindsay, we wanted Lindsay in rehab. In- patient treatment. And Lindsay -- Ali got a hold it out and she texted me while in the courtroom and said don't talk to me if you want Lindsay in a rehab.
KING: Why do people get mad at people who try to help?
PINSKY: That is such a strange thing, isn't it? You know, to me, that was the most caring move he could possibly make, and yet, your young daughter only sees the suffering, doesn't really understand the intent and what's on the other side of this. Part of it is that those of us who don't have this disease, don't understand what the disease does to people and what's on the other side. So, you have that faith and what's there when they recover.
The other thing is when the addict believes -- I shouldn't say believe -- the addict brain is configured in such a way that not doing drugs is synonymous with survival or death, rather. So, they literally fight against the possibility of stopping the way you would fight against somebody trying to kill you. And they'll use everything they have. And that's what makes the rest of the people around them walk on eggshells, and to me, that's comical. You don't walk on eggshells around the addict. You're just trying to help them.
BLOOM: We've seen the deaths of Michael Jackson and Heath Ledger and Anna Nicole Smith. Then, afterwards, everyone says, oh, we saw that coming, right? That was predictable. What Michael has tried to do over the last few months by trying every legal option to get her into rehab is to say, I'm not going to wait until she is another Hollywood statistic. And he came to me and said, Lisa what can we do legally to try to help her? And that's what we've doing, by writing letters to the court, trying to get her into rehab. He should be applauded for that.
KING: Michael, who prescribes the prescription drugs?
MICHAEL LOHAN: We've been trying to find out who the doctors really are, and I think -
KING: You need a doctor, you need a prescription, right?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Absolutely, sir, yes. BLOOM: There are a lot of doctors in this town who will give celebrities anything that they want?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Dr. Drew knows this better than anybody, even better than me. When you're prescribing drugs at a contradictory to each other, whether it's a benzo or a psychotropic or an opiate or whatever, some doctors don't want to know what the other doctors are writing, and these addicts don't tell them, and they're mixing these pills, and it becomes toxic and sometimes lethal. Look at Casey Johnson and the wrestler.
KING: What does she do until July 20th?
MICHAEL LOHAN: She --
KING: What does she do?
BLOOM: That's the date that she has to report.
PINSKY: You know what -- what I would recommend her to do? I recommend her to take a good hard look at this and realize that people really care about her and that there is a better life ahead, go to a meeting. Put herself on the --.
MICHAEL LOHAN: Do you think she should go into a rehab now, try to get into a program?
KING: Even until the 20th?
PINSKY: Absolutely. I mean, when people are ready, you just go now. You do whatever you can, immediately. But even if it just going to a meeting and throw yourself on the mercy of the people there and said, look, I need help. This isn't working for me.
BLOOM: And I think the court would look favorably on her if she did go to rehab now.
KING: Michael, going to leave you now, you're going to go see her?
MICHAEL LOHAN: I hope so. I plan to do it and I hope I do see her.
KING: The only thing can happen is you don't see her?
MICHAEL LOHAN: Yes. The cops will come and get arrested again. I'll be in jail with my daughter. What am I going to do?
KING: Thank you very much. Best of luck to you.
MICHAEL LOHAN: Thank you, sir.
BLOOM: Thank you.
KING: DNC chairman, Tim Kaine, is with us. You'll hear what he thinks about the Michael Steele dust up, and you'll hear his remarks for the first time, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Will Republican National Committee chairman, Michael Steele, survive this fire storm over his recent comment about the war in Afghanistan? Steele has been taken to task by many key members of the GOP for remarks he made last week at a fundraiser in Connecticut. We asked Steele to join us tonight, and he declined the invitation. We welcome back Tim Kaine to LARRY KING LIVE. He is the DNC chairman, former governor of Virginia. Always good to see him. Here's some of what Steele said. We'll get the governor's reaction after this. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL STEELE, RNC CHAIRMAN: Keep in mind, for our federal candidates, this is a war of Obama's choosing. This is not something the United States actively prosecuted or wanted to engage in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Governor, should Steele say goodbye?
TIM KAINE, DNC CHAIRMAN: Well, you know, Larry, I'm going to leave that for the Republicans, but let me say this, my reaction to the comments. The comments were outrageous to say that the Afghanistan war was a war of Obama's choosing, ignores 9/11, ignores President Bush going to a bipartisan Congress and getting their support for going after the terrorists who did us harm, ignores the international coalition that joins with us. But in another way, as outrageous the statements are, they are also, I think, a logical extensions of what the Republican Party's game plan is which was blame the president for anything and oppose him on everything.
Earlier this year, as you know, the chairman wrote a book, Chairman Steele wrote a book, the subtitle was "Ten Ways to Stop the Obama Agenda." That is the Republican playbook right now. That's why I think he actually is probably going to survive this because I don't think you can get fired on their side for saying something negative about the president. That's all they do.
KING: Yes, but he is also disagreeing with the policies supported by the Republicans.
KAINE: Right. And you have had Republican members of Congress and others who have come out and said this was an unfortunate statement, it was an unwise statement. They have called him to task on the statement. But you do not see a ground swell of support within the RNC to fire him. And again, I think the main reason is it is a logical extensions of a game plan that from day one has been, you know, break the president, make health care his waterloo, fight against him on anything he proposes.
KING: Doesn't it seem odd to you that the president -- the area he is most supported is in the Afghanistan policy where many Democrats disagree with him? KAINE: There is paradox and irony in that. The president said very plainly during the campaign that he viewed Iraq as a war of choice and it was the wrong choice, but Afghanistan is a war of necessity. And there are those who don't agree with it. But just as in Iraq where the president by August will have taken American troop strength from about 140,000 down to 50,000 in combat troops, you are going to see him pursuing the same patient and careful strategy in Afghanistan, to create a stable situation so that Afghanistan doesn't threaten other nation and then draw American troops down, beginning in the summer of 2011.
KING: Let's ask it this way, if you are chairman of your party and you make a statement contrary to what your party feels, should you be asked to leave, if it were Tim Kaine?
KAINE: Larry, I wouldn't survive something like that in my party. No I wouldn't survive it.
KING: You would not?
KAINE: No, I would not. But when the policy seems to be anything's fair game if it's blaming the president or getting in his way, I have to -- I have to feel -- my prediction is that Chairman Steele is going to survive it.
KING: What do you think of the Afghanistan policy?
KAINE: Well, I think, again, the -- you look at Afghanistan much like you look at what you look at what the president has done in Iraq. The wars were for very different motives. I think the president was right that Iraq was a wrong choice and I applaud the way he has brought the troop strength down. He has laid out a plan going forward that calls for a reduction of battle troop strength in Afghanistan beginning in 2011. He has accomplished what he said would do in Iraq and I think the American people are going to see that he will accomplish what he said he would do in Afghanistan.
KING: How do you think your party's going to do this fall?
KAINE: Larry, I'll be honest, it's going to be tough. The average midterm, I tell Democrats all over the country, since Teddy Roosevelt was president is the presidential party loses 28 House seats, loses four Senate seats and we are not living in average times.
People are hurting, the economy is tough. That makes it a volatile electorate. But I also tell Democrats this. So we assume we are running into a headwind and we assume it is tough. Nevertheless we don't mind tough and we don't mind running an uphill battle. We have a successful president who is taking huge steps with Congress to do heavy lifting, even when it's unpopular to turn the economy around.
We have signature achievements, health care, financial reform, women entitled to equal pay for equal work, I think as time wears on, the American public is more and more appreciative of our party doing the heavy lifting. So I think we're going to do a lot better than most people think but we have to assume it is going to be challenging, we've just got to outwork and outsmart the other guys.
KING: Since history is against you, obviously, what's the strategy?
KAINE: Well, I think the strategy, you know, kind of from a message standpoint is basically to tell the American people in 2009, we were in a ditch, the worst economy since the 1930s, jobs being lost at 700,000 a month, GDP shrinking. Today, a year and a half later, GDP is growing, we are adding jobs. We are not where we want to be yet but for gosh sake, we are finally climbing again. We ought to keep climbing rather than go back in the ditch. Let's not embrace the policies or the candidates who would put us back there. So that's the message.
KING: One other thing, Justice Department legal challenge filed today to Arizona's law. You agree with that?
KAINE: I do I think the Arizona law, it comes out of a frustration with a broken federal immigration policy, but the way to fix it is for senators and House members of both parties to do what they said they had been doing, they should have done years ago and come up with a comprehensive immigration policy at the federal level.
The solution isn't for states to go one-off and enact harsh policies that really, you know, show a real xenophobic face about who we are. We need to fix this, fix it at the federal level, that is what the president is set on doing.
KING: Always good seeing you, governor, thanks.
KAINE: Great, thank you so much, Larry.
KING: Governor Tim Kaine, chairman, former governor of Virginia, chairman, Democratic National Committee.
Back with Marc Lamont Hill and Michael Reagan, don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Joining us, Michael Reagan, chairman of the Reagan PAC. Information about his many activities can be found at reagan.com and he's of course the son of the late president Ronald Reagan. And in Philadelphia, Marc Lamont Hill, professor at Columbia University, contributed to theloop21.com.
Start with you, Michael, GOP Senators McCain, Graham, DeMint, others, are others sharply critical of Michael Steele. Are you, and if you are, should he keep his job?
MICHAEL REAGAN, CHAIRMAN, THE REAGAN PAC: You know, welcome to politics. This is such a political game that's being played. Today, it doesn't matter what you say, somewhere, somebody is going to cover it and they're going to take it and turn it into what it is tonight, we're on the "Larry King" show talking about it.
Right now, I'm looking at this country saying what are we going to do to get this country back? Michael Steele is not the problem with the country. Michael Steele says things that may not be the smartest things to say, he's getting attacked by Lindsay Graham or the John McCains or whatever. But that isn't the issue.
I'm not voting for Michael Steele to be the president of the United States or to be my congressman or my senator. Right now the Republican Party is winning. You don't change horses in July going into a November election. I'm sure Governor Kaine would love to see the horse change and put somebody else in there. The fact of the matter is now is the not the time. And the governor said listen, he would be fired if he said something stupid. They had Howard Dean for how many years and how many stupid things did Howard Dean say? And yet, he still maintained his position.
KING: In every off-year election, you know the other party wins in the first -- after the first two years of a presidency.
REAGAN: From your lips to God's ears.
KING: What, it's going to be unusual? You would be shocked if they don't win, right? Marc, what you make of Steele's remarks and whether he should keep his job?
MARC LAMONT HILL, PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Well, Michael Steele obviously made some comments that were unfactual, a historical to suggest that Barack Obama initiated a war in Afghanistan or that President Bush somehow didn't prosecute this war or didn't want to prosecute a war in Afghanistan is just completely untrue.
I think in the subsequent days though, Michael Steele has attempted to make a better argument, which is simply that Barack Obama campaigned as a peace candidate when, in fact, he advocated the war in Afghanistan. And this is his strategy and he should be judged on it.
I think Michael Steele's comes were irresponsible to suggest that this is an unwinnable war while our troops are over in Afghanistan is a dangerous thing to do. Would I love him to see him in office? Well as a leftist, as a Democrat, I'd love to see him stay in office because I think he does a great deal of service to the Democratic Party right now. I think I understand why the right wants him out. I mean, it complete sense to me. When you have someone undermining the troops and undermining the unified message of the Republican Party, you can't have them in a leadership position.
KING: What, Michael, to you, is winning in Afghanistan? How do you win? What's victory day?
REAGAN: Yes, that's a very good question. Nobody has in fact sat down and defined that, what victory is. I know victory isn't setting a date certain and saying we're going to be leaving on this day and allowing the enemies to in fact set that up.
KING: Having said that, what -- how do you win?
REAGAN: That is a good question. I love to talk to General Petraeus about it, love to talk to the president of the United States about it. Yeah, we need to win there. Is winning there having the people who have freedoms, like we have many freedoms, be able to vote, choose their leaders and what have you without the worry of being blown up while they are in line waiting to go to the store or waiting to vote? I mean, there is a lot of things in fact can happen. But right now, I think the world and Afghanistan needs to know that America is on their side and we are going to be there to try to make that a better country to live.
KING: Marc, how does the president win this?
HILL: I'm not sure that you can. If winning means stabilizing the region, creating peace and imposing an American vision of democracy, even if we conceded those things are good things, I'm not sure that that is a winnable project. If the idea is to cut down the amount of American lives that are lost, that is a winnable project.
If the idea here is to stabilize the region politically and support our own strategic interests, that's possible. How does the president do that? By not continuing to send troops there but to begin to stabilize the region, to begin to hand over the reins to people who can lead themselves and to begin to again, back U.S. troops out very quickly.
REAGAN: But you're not going to be able be to stabilize the region if, in fact, you don't send more troops there and have them there for General Petraeus.
KING: That's Catch 22.
HILL: Well, what you don't want is to have a limitless number of troops going into Afghanistan and to say that we will send 500 -- excuse me, 100,000 more troops or 50,000 more troops. But many military experts have said that the number of troops we have right now is sufficient for stabilizing the region.
KING: I will ask you both, because we only have about a minute left, we asked Governor Kaine, we will ask you, what do you make of the Justice Department filing suit against the immigration?
REAGAN: It's not a surprise that they're going to file suit, what have you. I think they are going to find they are wrong because basically what Arizona did was codify a federal law that's already in place.
All they are going to do is in fact live by the law the federal government has in place. That's what they are doing. The federal government is at fault here for not doing anything. There is an answer, I suggest people go to redcardsolution.org. There is an answer, this is not going to court.
KING: What do you think?
HILL: Michael and I are probably in agreement that this isn't -- that the lawsuit isn't the answer here. I do agree that the federal government has to do something. Having a draconian, xenophobic immigration policy in Arizona is not the answer. What we need to do is a comprehensive immigration reform. If we don't do that, we will continue to have states like Arizona take rogue action. I think that the lawsuit is necessary but it is nothing but window direction and posturing if we don't back it up with real immigration reform in the very, very, very near future and Obama has a certain leadership for that to happen.
REAGAN: People say that this is anti-immigration law. This is an anti-illegal immigration law, not anti-immigration.
HILL: But Michael, we all would --
KING: Thank you very much. Thanks Marc, we'll have you back, we always do. Marc Lamont Hill and Michael Reagan, always good seeing you.
The incredible turn of events in the case of the missing boy in Portland, now a hitman may have entered the picture. That's next.
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KING: By the way, you can still help the gulf. Ante up for SOME great auction item at CNN.com/LarryKing. Click on the charity buzz link. The auction ends this week. Get your bids in now.
Let's check in, Sanjay Gupta sitting in for Anderson Cooper tonight. What is the lead, Sanjay?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well Larry, as we do every night on "360," we are going to be keeping them honest. You know, before this happened, BP actually filed papers promising regulators it could skim and remove 491,000 barrels of oil a day from the Gulf. Numbers matter here and they said 491,000 barrels.
Just how believable is that? Right now, as we speak, up to 60,000 barrels are escaping from the bottom of the Gulf and BP isn't able to collect that amount which is an eighth of what they said they could handle.
Also we're going to get up close on the effects of the spill on mental health. First, there was Katrina, then the recession and now this. Many here have reached the limit on what they can take. Got those stories, much more as well, Larry, at the top of the hour.
KING: Thanks, Sanjay, 10 Eastern, 7 Pacific.
It has been more than a month since 7-year-old Kyron Horman disappeared from his Oregon schoolhouse. Investigators say his stepmother, Terri, is the last person known to have seen the little boy. And now, a bizarre twist involving that stepmother. Maxine Bernstein is a reporter for the "Oregonian." She broke this incredible new development, which is what Maxine?
MAXINE BERNSTEIN, OREGONIAN: Hi, Larry. As we reported in the Sunday "Oregonian," investigators had tracked down a landscaper that had worked for the Horman household in the rural home in rural northwest Portland. And the landscaper told investigators that Terri Horman, who is Kyron's mom, had offered to pay him to kill her husband. Investigators further learned from the landscaper that this murder-for-hire scheme was presented to him about six to seven months before Kyron's disappearance.
KING: Now this is who -- who wants him killed? The stepmother or the mother?
BERNSTEIN: The stepmom who is Terri Horman, who Kyron has lived with.
KING: Right. She supposedly wants to hire someone to kill her husband. Any reason for this? What's the investigation showing?
BERNSTEIN: They didn't divulge the motive. There's some suspicions that there were problems in the marriage, but I don't think they have nailed down the exact motive.
What investigators did have the landscaper assist their investigation and had him go back and contact Terri Horman, who is Kyron's stepmom, and this time he was accompanied by an undercover officer and he wearing a body mike.
And in the recorded conversation, he wanted Terri Horman to pay him $10,000 so he wouldn't go to police. But apparently Terri Horman was pretty wise to what was going on and cut off the conversation fairly quickly.
KING: All right.
BERNSTEIN: But authorities --
KING: Go ahead, I'm sorry, go ahead.
BERNSTEIN: Investigators thought what the landscaper said was fairly credible, was credible and serious enough that they shared it with Kyron's dad. And that was on June 26th. And within two days, he obtained a family law attorney and filed for divorce and a petition for restraining order.
KING: Anything new on the missing boy?
BERNSTEIN: There's no word of Kyron's location. There has been no arrest in the case and the investigation is continuing.
KING: That's Maxine Bernstein, reporter of the "Oregonian." Breaking a good story, an amazing story.
Pam and Craig Akers are the mother and stepfather of Shawn Hornbeck. Shawn was kidnapped on October 6th, 2002, while riding his bike. He was 11-years-old. He was found alive in the apartment of his abductor February 12th, 2007, after 4.5 years of captivity. They join us tonight from St. Louis. I guess, Pam, your message would be to everyone involved, keep hope alive, right?
PAM AKERS, SON ABDUCTED, FOUND: Keep hope alive until something is brought to them to prove differently, there's always that hope out there. And keep them prayers going.
KING: What do you make of this case, Craig? Kid goes to school with his stepmother, a stepmother who has a master's degree in education, apparently loving to her little stepson and gone. What do you make of it?
CRAIG AKERS, SON ABDUCTED, FOUND: It's really baffling. Initially, it was -- I was dumbfounded how someone in that type of situation can disappear so fast, right under so many people's noses. It seemed to me like there just had to be more to the story than what we were hearing.
KING: How did you not -- did you ever give up, Pam, about finding your boy?
P. AKERS: No, I never did. There were times that when I got real depressed and got alone, I thought maybe I was fooling myself for not giving up that hope but then something would come back to me or a memory, a scent, a song or something that would just tell me I have to keep that hope going because I knew he was still out there and I knew he was still alive.
KING: Were either of you under suspicion?
C. AKERS: No. That was one of the things that we did early on. We cooperated fully with the police and the FBI. We were polygraphed by the FBI. And in that way, we were able to clear ourselves so they could really focus on what they needed to be focusing on, instead of taking time out of their schedule to look at us.
KING: What happened to his abductor, Pam? Was he convicted?
P. AKERS: Oh, yeah. He got multiple, multiple life sentences. He'll never see the outside again.
KING: When we come back, we'll find out how Shawn is doing. This kid was away from age 11 to age 15, extraordinary. Don't go away.
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DANIEL STATON, SHERIFF, MULTINOMAH COUNTY, OREGON: There is no indication whatsoever for us to believe, other than the fact that Kyron is still alive. We have the potential opportunity to still bring him home. And until that evidence has been produced to me, we will continue under that premise.
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KING: We're talking with Pam and Craig Akers in St. Louis. His biological parents, Kyron's biological parents have not done many media appearances. Is that wise, Pam?
P. AKERS: Well, you know, at the very beginning when Shawn was taken, I didn't do too many of them either. I just emotionally could not do that. That's why Craig handled the majority of them.
But after awhile, they will have to start doing the appearances if he is still missing out there, because they're the ones that are going to have to make sure that his name and his picture and what's going on with his case is still out there.
KING: How was his abductor found, Craig?
C. AKERS: That is really going to take some really good detective work. Unraveling the timeline and figuring out exactly where he was at what points in time are going to be critical to determining what --
KING: Is that what they did in your case? How was your -- Shawn's abductor found?
C. AKERS: We actually were very fortunate. His abductor got greedy and decided to abduct another young boy. He did and this time there was a witness who was able to provide a detailed description of the vehicle to police, which led police to the abductor a few days later where they found both boys together in his apartment.
KING: How tough was the adjustment period, Pam? You hadn't seen him for four years. He had been with an abductor. How did that go?
P. AKERS: At the very beginning, you know, it was -- it wasn't hard that he was home again, but it was hard to understand what he might have been going through or what he was going through and to make sure that we got him the right education he needed and the right therapy that he needed.
For me to even let him out of the room from where I was at, I would say, for about the first year, that was really hard to adjust. And you just eventually have to give him a little bit more space and a little bit more space and you just work on it with, you know, therapy and time and time heals everything.
KING: How is he doing now, Craig?
C. AKERS: He's doing awesome. He met his high school graduation requirements a semester early. He has graduated from high school now, has a semester in of college, pursuing a degree in criminal justice. He's working, dating, driving, your ordinary, average 19-year-old boy. You would never know that anything had ever happened.
KING: Does he often talk about what happened to him, Pam?
P. AKERS: No, not at all. We talked about it in therapy. He talked about it with us just a little bit. We don't ask him any questions. If there's something on his mind, he may say something to us. But he doesn't really ever talk about what he went through. We may be in an area that he used to ride his bike in or skateboard in or go shopping in, and he would mention, you know, things like that, but that would be all, really, that he would mention to us.
KING: And again, your message to the parents and others involved, don't give up hope. Right?
P. AKERS: Never give up that hope.
C. AKERS: Absolutely.
KING: You are classic proof. Thank you both very much, Pam and Craig Akers.
Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, is our special guest tomorrow night. And Friday night, Queen Latifah. Now, Sanjay Gupta and "A.C. 360." Doctor?
