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Baghdad: Will Weapons Inspectors Return to Iraq?; What Happens After Saddam Hussein?

Aired February 05, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE ARRAF, CNN ISTANBUL BUREAU CHIEF: Hi, I'm Jane Arraf in Iraq. This is the country that sparked one of the biggest wars in modern history. One of the most powerful countries in the region and once again at the center of a simmering conflict over weapons of mass destruction. We are going to explore all this as we go LIVE FROM BAGHDAD.

ANNOUNCER: Their leader is hated in the West. Their country is on President Bush's short list.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: States like these and their terrorist allies constitute an axis of evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is Saddam Hussein shaken up enough to let weapons inspectors back into country? Today, a possible breakthrough, plus, a rare glimpse of life in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARRAF: A few years ago, this street didn't even exist, but now despite everything, new shops and restaurants are opening all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Despite that, Iraq says economic sanctions are having an impact. And, a look ahead. What happens after Saddam Hussein? You'll meet a man who hopes to have input in that decision.

LIVE FROM BAGHDAD with Jane Arraf.

ARRAF: It's a week later, but Iraq has formally responded to those comments by President George W. Bush, that it's part of an axis of evil. A foreign ministry spokesman says the U.S. knows that it's not developing weapons of mass destruction. Now, despite that war of words, there is still a real war going on here in the north and south in the no-fly zones. In the north on Tuesday, Iraq reports that four of its citizens were killed when U.S. and British planes attacked after what the U.S. called a provocation by Iraqi surface-to-air missiles and anti-air defenses.

Here in Baghdad, all is calm but perhaps not for long. There's a feeling that that calm may not last, as the dispute continues over whether to let in weapons inspectors. And the fear grows that the U.S. might be serious that it might do something about it. Let's take a look at the mood in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF (voice-over): Some things about Baghdad you might never have suspected. Get in the car, turn on the radio, you'll hear almost all the latest hits. Even though Iraq is under sweeping sanctions, if you have money there are plenty of places to spend it. On Baghdad's equivalent of Fifth Avenue, Arasaso Hendia (ph), you can buy Swiss watches, Italian lingerie, imported whiskeys and even brand name tires.

(on-camera): A few years ago, this street didn't even exist, but now despite everything new shops and restaurants are opening all the time.

(voice-over): The owners of this men's clothing boutique are doing well enough to open a new branch. Here, Italian and Turkish suits start from $125. Across the street, a women's version specializing in the latest Turkish fashions.

(on-camera): You can also get shoes made in Italy like these ones, which are -- how much? 125,000 dinars, which are about $60.

(voice-over): That's more than a government official makes in about three months. But people who buy these clothes aren't living on government salaries. These shops cater to Iraq's upper class. Before the Gulf War and the sanctions, they might have traveled to Paris or at least Beirut. But now they're spending more money at home.

Satellite dishes are band by the Iraqi government but televisions are a hot item, including new South Korean made flat screen TVs. Imported via Jordan, they're used mostly for watching boot legged DVDs.

Hassir Tassir (ph) says most people buy TVs worth about 200 or $300. He hasn't sold any of these $17,000 wide-screen sets, but he's sold quite a few of the $2,000 versions. Poor people come here, too, Tassir's (ph) says, but mostly they come just to look.

Leaving this fashionable neighborhood, it's clear some here thrive but most are just surviving. Across town, looking for bargains is a preoccupation. Fatim (ph) and her mother come by bus to this used clothing market. Here you can buy a shirt for 50 cents, jeans $2.

"The prices are cheaper here," she says. Her father's salary, as a policeman, has doubled lately, but he still makes less than $10 a month. The market is in the shadow of a mosque whose domes have been recovered in gold by the government. (on-camera): This is Patdamia (ph), one of the oldest areas of Baghdad and the site of one of the holiest shrines for Shiite Muslims. Two of the 12 lemans (ph) thought to be intermediaries between man and God are buried here.

(voice-over): For almost 20 years since the start of the Iran- Iraq war, this shrine and others in Iraq were cut off to Iranian pilgrims, but the Iranians and their hard currency are back. No Italian leather shoes in this neighborhood. They're plastic, uncomfortable and less than a dollar. Televisions are black and white.

In poor and rich neighborhoods, when evening falls, Baghdad comes to life. Posh restaurants are rarely full but they stay in business. In other parts of town, taking your family out is more affordable. At cafes like this, a hamburger and soft drink is less than $1. It's an unimaginable luxury for millions of the poor but affordable for what's left of the middle class.

And what's happened to old Baghdad? This seventh century guesthouse was a weigh station for travelers on the caravan route. It still caters to businessmen. The only diners enjoying the entertainment this weekday were a group of Syrians taking advantage of Iraq's newly reopened border.

Despite the hardships over the past decade, there's no embargo on laughter. Iraqis pack theaters to see homegrown plays that are a mix of comedy and pathos. This one about a car repairman who got sucked up into outer space to be told he has to confront an evil tower on earth. They don't say it but the evil in this play, by the way, isn't Iraq, it's America. Some things haven't changed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: In reporting from Baghdad, it's important to let you know what you're not seeing. This is one of the most closed countries in the world. Given that, it's rather surprising the access we do get, the images it that story, the street scenes, the ability to talk to people is somewhat surprising in a country that feels 11 years after the Gulf War that it is still under threat, that it is still at a state of war. However, there are a lot of parts of the city that we can't show you, the palaces, some of the monuments even, a lot of the buildings, the public buildings are -- have sensitive sights, according to the Iraqis and any pictures taken are taken with the approval and with the authorization and accompaniment of an official from the information ministry.

Now, having said that, CNN has been the only western news organization with a permanent western correspondent here since the Gulf War. And for the past four years, we've operated a bureau here and we are able to go out in the streets so we can give you a sense of what things are like but we can't show you the full picture.

Here in Baghdad, though, one thing that is clear is that the government is being very, very careful, as it's always been with what it says and what it tells its people. Now, that caution is coming primarily from the feeling that it has to tread very carefully, that it may very well be under threat from the United States. Its placing its hope on overtures that it's made to the U.N. to open direct talks again, which speculation says may lead to the return of the weapons inspectors.

Now, to see how that's playing out at the U.N. directly, we're going to go to CNN's Richard Roth.

Richard, what is the feeling there? Is there optimism that these talks could lead to something?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jane, several weeks ago, a Security Council ambassador told us that the Afghanistan angle is passing. Iraq will be the new adventure. And now, some spice added to that perhaps by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, who, using a messenger, the former Egyptian foreign minister, Amre Moussa, he went to the United Nations to say that Iraq was ready to enter into a dialogue without any preconditions.

The secretary general, Kofi Annan, who met with Amre Moussa yesterday, indicated he was prepared now to receive a delegation from Iraq. But we've seen this before, a round of talks. Similar dialogue ended one year ago. There was just no progress being made. The U.N. spokesman Fred Eckhard speaking for Kofi Annan says, "The secretary- general believes that this round should be more substantive."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: The secretary-general's preference is, of course, that these talks be somewhat more focused than the first round of a year ago when Iraq went into considerable detail to lay out their case. And substantial documentation was presented and was passed on to the Security Council after that.

Now that that is behind us, I think the secretary-general hopes we can go to the next step, which is to talk about more specific issues, such as the return of the inspectors to Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: But there is caution on the side of Annan. When it was first announced, they said the secretary-general must first check his calendar to find a convenient date -- Jane.

ARRAF: Richard, you've also spoken to U.N. weapons inspectors who have been essentially sitting around for the last several years. They say ready to go in. Are they optimistic something's going to happen?

ROTH: They've kind of been waiting for the big game now for four years practically, since they've been out of Iraq. They have about 40 staff members here, and they're ready to bring in 120 more who've been undergoing training. They just don't know when they're going to go in. They've been compiling an inventory on what they don't know, what they need to know. They try to stay out of the politics. They just wait for the signal to go in there. ARRAF: Richard, thanks very much.

When we come back, we're going to go to Washington for the U.S. reaction to these Iraqi overtures and we'll hear some Iraqi government comments.

ANNOUNCER: Also ahead, a man who can't wait for Saddam Hussein to be toppled from power. We'll talk to an enemy of the Iraqi regime.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ARRAF: Well, there's no word from Iraqi President Saddam Hussein on George W. Bush's comments, branding Iraq, part of that axis of evil. He's believed to consider it unseemly but his vice president, Taha Yassin Ramadan, did have this to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAHA YASSIN RAMADAN, IRAQI VICE PRESIDENT (through translator): This behavior cannot be in harmony. It is the position of the president of the world's largest state, the president of the state with the world's biggest military and economic capacities, as well as with the responsibility of maintaining peace and stability in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARRAF: Now, whether it's true or not, a lot of Iraqi people, I'd say almost all the Iraqi people, as well as the Iraqi government, believe that nothing will happen unless the U.S. wants it to happen, whether it's with its dialogue with the U.N. or anything else. For that U.S. view on Iraq's new overtures, we're going to go to David Ensor in Washington -- David.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Saddam Hussein will not be permitted, say U.S. officials, to use talks with the U.N.'s Kofi Annan to wriggle out of giving up his weapons of mass destruction.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: It should be a very short discussion. The inspectors have to go back in under our terms, under no else's terms, under the terms of the Security Council Resolution. The burden is upon this evil regime to demonstrate to the world that they are not doing the kinds of things we suspect them of.

ENSOR: Officials note the offer to talk to the U.N. without preconditions came only after President Bush's tough talk in the state of the union speech.

BUSH: States like these and their terrorist allies constitute an axis of evil.

RICHARD BUTLER, FORMER U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: I think that this is Iraq's attempt to head off what was threatened in the president's state of the union speech.

ENSOR: What may have Baghdad worried is that the speech suggested Mr. Bush now agrees with hawks in his administration, like Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, who have argued that the war on terror should include military action against Saddam Hussein. Secretary Powell, in the past leery about taking on Iraq for fear of dividing the international coalition against al Qaeda, is also talking tough.

POWELL: It does remain U.S. policy to try to achieve regime change.

ENSOR: The Iraqis may be worried about the closer cooperation between Russia and the U.S. since September 11. Until now, Russia has blocked attempts at the U.N. to impose so-called "smart sanctions on Iraq," tighter sanctions to stop weapons technologies from reaching the Iraqi missiles and weapons programs while easing the plight of the Iraqi people.

Now, U.S. and Russian officials are talking about how Russia might be able to recoup billions in debts Iraq owes from Soviet times in exchange for supporting the new tougher arms inspection regime.

(on-camera): The administration's strategy for now, keep Baghdad guessing as to what it may do and when. Some analysts predict the administration may push for arms inspectors who can go absolutely anywhere in Iraq and then say anyplace they are denied entry would be bombed.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: And increasingly what this seems to be about is not about Iraq's links to terrorism and whether it has weapons of mass destruction, but toppling President Saddam Hussein. With us tonight is Sharif Ali Bin Al Hussein, a member of the Iraqi National Congress, one of the main opposition movements in the United States and a member of the ruling family, the royal family that ruled Iraq before it was toppled in 1958.

Sharif Ali, thank you for being with us.

SHARIF ALI BIN AL HUSSEIN, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: Thank you.

ARRAF: The main question here is how can someone, who has not been here in decades perhaps, know what is going on in Iraq? And how could someone who has that little knowledge of the country, people say in the region, feel that they could be competent and able to rule this country?

HUSSEIN: Well, like many millions of Iraqis who have been forced to leave their country because of the policies of Saddam Hussein, we all want to return, but we can't return because all of us would be killed by Saddam Hussein. And unfortunately, it seems like Saddam Hussein is once more leading the Iraqi people, the long-suffering Iraq people into a yet another war.

And that is what our objective is, to save Iraqi people. It's not about who is competent and who is going to rule Iraq. It's about saving the Iraqi people from the madness of Saddam Hussein's regime.

ARRAF: How exactly is the opposition and the INC, which is getting money from Congress going to save Iraq in your words, Sharif Ali?

HUSSEIN: Well, of course, we are working together with the Iraqi people inside Iraq. And that is where the real battlefield is and because the vast majority of the Iraqi people want to overthrow Saddam, including the Army, even the Secret Police, the Bak Party (ph), are all fed up. And this is the source of our strength and our support.

And we -- our objective is to give them greater strength and leadership and logistical support and develop their abilities to confront the regime finally and to end this nightmare, which everybody has been suffering.

ARRAF: Thank you. I just can't let you go without asking how you know that there are signs of that strength here.

HUSSEIN: Well, it's clear even since 1991 when 14 provinces fell to the Iraqi population and we could have swept away the regime had international conditions been different. And then, in 1995, when we were able to repulse the Iraqi forces or should I say be able to win the support over of all the units that we were facing. Clearly, the Iraqi people, to us, wish that Saddam will be overthrown and they're waiting for the moment that that can happen, and we are here to help them.

ARRAF: Sharif Ali Bin Al Hussein, thank you very much for joining us.

HUSSEIN: Thank you, it's a pleasure.

ARRAF: When we come back, we're going to take a look at Iraq's Oil for Food Program, one of the biggest U.N. programs in the world. And the question we're going to try to explore is why are Iraqi children still dying?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ARRAF: One of the strangest new things in Iraq's strange economy are being sold on the dusty streets of Baghdad. They're pink flamingos and they come interest western Iraq. Obviously, lost and forlorn, they're sold in pairs, $25 a pair to anyone who will buy them. And the man who sells them, Mohammed Abdullah (ph) says they only go to good homes. But on this day, he couldn't sell them and he tried to flag down a passing taxi with a bird under each arm. He stuffed them in the trunk, closed the lid and drove away hopefully to sell them another day.

There are many mysteries in Iraq and one of the biggest is why, after all this time, after all the oil sold, after all the money coming in, children here are still dying at such high rates. CNN's Rym Brahimi takes a look at the program that was supposed to help stop all that and why it's not working so well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the biggest humanitarian program ever administered by the United Nations, more than $10 billion a year. But six years after the program began, the U.N. says Iraqi babies are still dying in alarming numbers.

PIERRETTE VU THI, UNICEF: The child mortality in Iraq has increased eight times more than countries that are heavily affected by the HIV/AIDS epidemic in Africa.

BRAHIMI: The so-called Oil For Food Program was supposed to be temporary. It allows Iraq to sell oil to buy badly needed food and medicine. It's helped improved the quality of these government rations that have kept millions of Iraqis alive through more than a decade of sanctions. But six years on, say UNICEF officials, the program has only kept things from getting worse. It hasn't made things any better.

UNICEF says more than one in five children suffers from malnutrition. Preventable diseases account for 70 percent of the death rate. The real reason children are still dying says the U.N. is dirty water and poor general infrastructure and health facilities.

Oil For Food continues despite the protest resignations of two U.N. humanitarian coordinators who believe the program is extending the suffering.

(on-camera): It's a bit of a catch 22 situation. The Oil for Food Program makes sanctions sustainable. The program, however, says the U.N. can never be a real substitute for a normally functioning economy.

(voice-over): But without it, the U.N. says there's no doubt more Iraqi children would die. Iraqi officials insist they could manage without it. They say it's inefficient and the United States and Britain are to play.

Iraq, backed by a few allies, has been hoping to get sanctions lifted all together, but, say the U.N. Security Council members, unless Baghdad allows weapons inspectors back in, that's not going to happen.

Rym Brahimi, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: Rym earlier asked Iraq's health minister about what Iraq would do without the U.N.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) OMED METHAT MUBARAK, IRAQI MINISTER OF HEALTH: We are reevaluating the health situation and you have to differentiate between the preventive and the therapeutic measures. You know the preventive measures is much more important than the therapeutic measures because you know, it's the preventive medicine.

This can be achieved through -- by only providing the whole population with good calories of food stuffs and with electricity power, with water supply system, as it was before, and garbage collecting systems and other systems, which is very important. The sewer system also is very important. That's why the infectious diseases are still high.

BRAHIMI: That means there is no money for the sewage systems, for these kind of infrastructures. There seems to be, for instance, in Baghdad, when you look around a lot of new roads being built, lots of new mosques being built and obviously, one of the accusations of many governments abroad is that a lot of these things are being built but the money isn't going into the health system. What would your response be to that?

MUBARAK: Regarding the buildings, which are established nowadays, you know, all of them are being built and rehabilitated by the local Iraqi currencies and this is available, of course. This is available also for the health system. We are not having any shortages in the Iraqi currencies or the local currency to rehabilitate our hospitals, dispensaries, schools and everywhere.

But what I'm talking about is the general sanity of the situation needs hard currency to be repaired -- the spare parts, new instruments and new facilities. Without this -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) understanding, they are not allowing us to have it and they are holding all of the contracts regarding these facilities or spare parts of them.

Now, everybody knows that the procedures of this memorandum of understanding is quite different from having these resources, which is from this memorandum, by hard currency to go through all the other requirements of the Iraqi population. So what we are in need of just to let us have our resources freely manipulated and then to use them on all the other facilities like other countries.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: This country has been at war for pretty well most of the past two decades, whether it's the Iran-Iraq war, the Gulf War, the ongoing low grade war in the north and south, in the no-fly zones or the ever present threat of war that hangs over the city and hangs over this country. And through it all, people here are pretty well powerless or at least feel that they're powerless to do anything about it. The only thing they now feel is that their fate is in the hands of two people, two presidents, each of whom believe that the other is evil.

I'm Jane Arraf. Thank you for joining us LIVE FROM BAGHDAD.

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