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Jerusalem: Israeli Tanks and Troops Continue to Move on the West Bank

Aired April 01, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Israeli troops and tanks on the move across the West Bank. Another day, another suicide bombing, this one in Jerusalem. Another death, another funeral, this time, an Israeli Arab killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber. One-on-one with Israel's defense minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BINYAMIN BEN-ELIEZER, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER: My strategy is to try and to reduce as much as possible the very often terror activity to calm the situation.

ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, Christiane Amanpour.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, HOST: The noose is tightening against Yasser Arafat in Ramallah, and the Israeli defense forces are expanding their military operations in the West Bank cities. We have been hearing helicopter activity in the sky for the last several hours and an Israeli defense official spokesman confirmed that at least two operations are under way right now, one of them at the headquarters of the security chief at the West Bank, Jubril Rajoub.

Jibril, can you tell us exactly what is going on at your compound right now?

JIBRIL RAJOUB, PALESTINIAN WEST BANK SECURITY CHIEF: Two hours ago, the Israelis opened fire through Apache and artillery and tanks and heavy machine guns on my headquarters and through one of the gates, they are using civilians as shields in order to storm inside the building. Still now, the bombing, the shelling continues.

AMANPOUR: Jubril, the Israeli spokespeople have told us that they deny categorically the human shield charge, but can you tell us, there are some 400 people, you say, inside your compound. The Israelis saying that some of those are suspected terrorists. What orders have you given those people inside your compound? Are they resisting?

RAJOUB: First of all, the Israelis are object liars. This is a big lie. If you want to make ramifications, could you send an American? Could you send anyone and see the human shields used by the Israelis? This is a big lie and I hope that the Americans do understand how much the Israelis are lying to them. They can't - yes, I give clear cut instructions to resist those occupiers, those attackers, those (UNINTELLIGIBLE). This is the only choice in front of us. The Israelis are pushing us to the corner. We will resist. We will resist and we will win.

AMANPOUR: In your compound right now, is there a firefight going on, or what exactly? Is there a battle or are they just coming in?

RAJOUB: There is a battle. There is confrontation. They are exchanging fires and there are casualties. And the situation is very, very difficult and there will be a catastrophe in this compound.

This is a shame on the face of everybody and to those who are supporting the Israeli unilateral war against the Palestinian people. I hope that Mr. Bush will recharge his mentality and reconsider his policies and understand that this will lead to original deterioration, this will destroy and harm the American interests in the Middle East and all over the world.

AMANPOUR: Jubril Rajoub, thank you from Ramallah.

You heard the charges. The Israelis say they are expanding their military operations around the West Bank in order to root out terrorism. Today, there were more tanks, more soldiers going into other cities in the in the West Bank, in Tulkarem and Quolykeya (ph), for instance. There are also operations under way around the Bethlehem area. According to Israeli spokespeople, that operation has been going on this evening.

Of course, this comes on a day when there has been yet another explosion inside Israel. This one in Jerusalem. A car approached a checkpoint, according to police sources. The policeman tried to check this car, knowing that -- thinking that it was suspicious and at that time the car exploded. The driver inside the car was killed and the policeman was seriously wounded. We're not sure whether he has in fact succumbed to his injuries or not.

At the same time, earlier this evening, I spoke to the Israeli defense minister, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer. He told us that he would give this operation about a week to judge its effectiveness or its success. He told us that that he wasn't a 100 percent sure whether or not this would be effective and successful, and that none of this can be stopped without political negotiations eventual eventually. He also told us that Israel would go wherever it needed in whatever town in the West Bank and maybe even eventually in Gaza to do what he has planned, and that is to try to minimize terrorist activity.

Here's our conversation with him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN-ELIEZER: Well, we are already in Biet Jala. If you ask me if we are going to deepen our presence in Bethlehem, it would be every place and everywhere where we -- it's required in order to guarantee our security.

AMANPOUR (on-camera): Can you please tell me the exact strategy?

BEN-ELIEZER: Of course. The strategy, first of all, is to try and to destroy as much as possible, the terror infrastructure, any place, anywhere. Secondly, by that lead, to a political solution because I, as a military man, also as a minister of defense, I do not believe that there's any possibility that through military we can reach anything.

Now, it's true that there were some different views, those who were exile Arafat. I was against it. I was against it because I thought to exile Arafat is not exactly going to help the situation here. I was with those who think that he should remain here. I was against those who want to close to somehow to way to that will destroy the Palestinian Authority. I thought that we have to do -- maybe it will happen, but we have to do everything in order to still keep the Palestinian Authority, someone to speak with, someone to be responsible. And -- but all the government, I can tell you, from (UNINTELLIGIBLE) rifles governed, any consensus where you cannot just sit and say to Arafat, thank you for the very often massacres that happen every day.

AMANPOUR: But how long do you think the isolation will last, two weeks, a month?

BEN-ELIEZER: I don't know. I really don't know. It will last as long as it's required, ma'am.

AMANPOUR: But what is required? What is your strategy? What is your end game?

BEN-ELIEZER: What is required - listen, my strategy is to try and to reduce as much as possible the very often terror activity, to calm the situation. That's why it probably will cause us entering every place in the territories, but it's not meaning that we are going to capture. No. I want to say that very clearly. We have no - any interest to keep area eight. And if we will be there, we will be there in order to fight and to destroy the terror infrastructure and then to pull back.

AMANPOUR: So you're saying that you probably will enter every city, town...

BEN-ELIEZER: Any place...

AMANPOUR: ... camp in the West Bank?

BEN-ELIEZER: Any place required that I'm sure that it is required, I will do that.

AMANPOUR: And Gaza?

BEN-ELIEZER: I don't know. I don't know yet, but I am telling you, I'm not happy to do that. I'm doing that because this is the only thing that remains. I have to guarantee the security of my people. I have to guarantee the security of our kids. It's impossible to keep the situation as it is. I think that Arafat is making for the -- I don't know, third or fourth time, a very bad mistakes again. He think that by adopting the Lebanese example or model, that through terror, he can reach a political solution. He will not reach that. He will not reach that.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe that humiliating and isolating Yasser Arafat will reduce terrorism in Israel or increase it, as it has been over the last several weeks and months?

BEN-ELIEZER: Right now, maybe, there is a chance. This is not going to solve the problem, no. But it might reduce. I mean by putting somehow - by disconnecting Arafat from the other organizations, maybe there is a slight possibility that the situation will be reduced. As much as possible, at least we can work three in the ground and try to do our job and maybe this can help the situation.

AMANPOUR: In the past three days, four days since you've invaded Ramallah and tried to isolate him, it's gotten worse. Every single day, there is a suicide bombing attack.

BEN-ELIEZER: It's too early. It's too early to judge it. I think we needed to - in terms of time; we need one week to tell - one week's time to see what will be the consequences. I mean from such operation like this, you cannot check it from today until tomorrow, no. Don't forget one thing, we are - we are fighting what? Suicide bombers, suicide shooters. Those that have been prepared and sent in the air, what we call, all right?

AMANPOUR: How will you stop suicide bombers with tanks? How?

BEN-ELIEZER: No way. No way to stop it with tanks. But in those who that have been recruited, I mean those kids that have been recruited, I hope, that why are we dealing with the commanders, with the leading figures, those who are attracting those kids, the fact they are really sorry about them. Those will start to do that, I hope.

AMANPOUR: You know very well that the March operation, invasion, into the territories was essentially derided by your own people. There were plenty of politicians, plenty of military people who briefed the press that the last operation was essentially for show, that didn't work, that even now, people are saying this current operation was - quote - "a stupid decision." I've read where Israeli generals or people in charge of units are saying, "I don't even know what to tell my soldiers. What are we here to do?"

BEN-ELIEZER: Well, I can tell you about the people that I am meeting. I mean the soldiers, the commanders. They are free to say to me at least whatever they feel. I just finished a discussion, a big one where everyone had the feeling that you can say everything you want. And we have gone through a very important discussions through what going to happen, how things will develop, what next, what are going to do in case of escalation, et cetera, et cetera. And I must tell you that I am proud that I am surrounded with people, that they are able to say whatever they think. I didn't ignore the fact that there is a change of views between - in the Israeli society and the Israeli leadership. But I can tell you one thing, today, there is a consensus when it's come to the Israeli people.

AMANPOUR: What is next? What if there is escalation? What if this policy doesn't work?

BEN-ELIEZER: Well, I hope that there's no escalation anymore.

AMANPOUR: So you've just been discussing it. So what is next?

BEN-ELIEZER: Well, I hope for the better because we are trying - you know, once you know what can be - what can escalate the situation, then you can just go and take some measures and means in order to try and avoid that as much as possible.

AMANPOUR: But what if there are more suicide bombings inside Israel? What do you do next?

BEN-ELIEZER: Listen, even if I will tell you that we are going for the separate operation, what they call, just put fences, I don't think that this will really close the way from those who want really to penetrate to Israel.

I think I've said we have to work very, very hard simultaneously, to work to our operation. We have to convince the Palestinian people as much as possible that our intention was and still to live with them together, to coexist with them together for better future, for the kids. I am ready to say more than that, but I am one of the few in the country that have accepted, for example, the Saudi proposal as a basis.

AMANPOUR: So if you, as defense minister, believe that and promise to Sharon, as prime minister, does not believe that...

BEN-ELIEZER: OK. Then I will move with this government until the minute that I will feel that I am prevented to do something that can achieved. I hope that I - you understand me. I will continue to be a partner in this government, in this coalition until the minute that I would realize that the breakthrough is possible and the fact that I am there, I can do that. Then I will quit, will go. All the labor party, we'll move out of this government.

AMANPOUR: But...

BEN-ELIEZER: I want you to know that I, through my service -- I used to be the ministry governor of the West Bank and government coordinator. I know hundreds of families and I feel sorry about them, really sorry. I want you to know that I care exactly as I care about our kids; I care about their kids as well. But someone have to come from the other side and listen to us and try to find a way how to sit and to find a solution. AMANPOUR: Do you care that your soldiers go house-to-house and arrest little children's fathers and humiliate them? Do you care that your soldiers went into hospitals and separated nurses and doctors and kept patients unattended while they even removed injured people from their beds to check? Is that right?

BEN-ELIEZER: No, that's wrong. That's wrong. First of all, no one have prove it to me. I know my people. I know my sources. I think they are the most moral soldiers, but in such operation, such big operation, I cannot ignore that some accidents happened from - it's a war. It's happened. It is not right and I can assure you more than that. The firs indication that someone makes something wrong, we stop it, we just stop it.

AMANPOUR: And what would happen if it was proved right?

BEN-ELIEZER: Someone have to be punished.

AMANPOUR: You warned Syria and Lebanon not to make any, I think you said, adventure in the north.

BEN-ELIEZER: Right.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe that's a possibility?

BEN-ELIEZER: Well, they're trying. They're trying every day. I mean the one who try to escalate the situation is Hezbollah. Anyway, they cannot do that without a blessing of Syria.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe this will lead to a wider, regional war?

BEN-ELIEZER: Well, potentially, yes. Potentially, yes. I mean if they will continue to try to -- so far I try to isolate that and to response locally and to not to let this happening go for more escalation.

AMANPOUR: You and your government have said publicly that Mr. Arafat is not personally going to be harmed or killed and yet one of your commanders said, "This is a war. We can't guarantee his safety."

BEN-ELIEZER: Well, let me just put it in my way. I spent hours and hours on putting clear-cut instructions, briefing people, briefing the commanders, briefing everyone. We have no interest, no - any interest to harm him. In the country, we want to keep him alive. Why? We don't think that this is the way, to deal. Although, I realize that he is the troublemaker.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: When asked, the defense minister would not be drawn into what his red line would be, what would cause, if anything, the Israeli government hardliners to actually want to move from isolating to exiling Arafat.

We'll be back with more of our report after a short break. ANNOUNCER: Coming up, under siege in Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY LEWITT, JERUSALEM RESIDENT: Looking around all the time and looking over your shoulder, looking around at the people, seeing if anybody looks suspicious. If we're going somewhere, just looking out and seeing if there's enough security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The fear factor, when LIVE FROM JERUSALEM returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Time for your opinion. Should the U.S. become more involved in resolving the conflicts in the Middle East? To take the quick vote, head to CNN.com. The AOL keyword is CNN. A reminder, this poll is not scientific.

AMANPOUR: Terror has seized both sides, the Palestinians and here the Israelis, ordinary people who are caught up in this violence. Jerusalem has born the brunt of most of the suicide bombings. CNN's John Vause reports on what it's like for ordinary people to live here these days.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi.

N. LEWITT: Hi, Hi, guys.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At home and under siege, the Lewitt family, typical of so many in Israel.

N. LEWITT: There is no safe any more.

VAUSE: Because now the suicide bombings are so random, so unpredictable. When going out at night, they eat at restaurants that are off the street and up a flight of stairs.

N. LEWITT: The thinking in the head is, OK, well, if a terrorist comes, well, it's not right on the street, and they probably are not going to think they'd have to go up a flight of stairs.

VAUSE: The husband, Ron, a salesman, used to have many clients in the Palestinian village of Biet Jala, but no more. He says it's now too dangerous to drive there. When he does take his family out there's an ever-present fear of attack.

RON LEWITT, JERUSALEM RESIDENT: To tell you the truth, I don't know what I'm looking for, but we're looking. Do you know what something suspicious is? You don't know until you see it.

VAUSE: They have two teenage boys who now spend most of their free time at home with friends. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We go down there and there's no one. It's like -- I feel like Jerusalem is a ghost city.

VAUSE: Nancy carefully chooses her supermarket based on the level of security, especially after a suicide bombing at a Jerusalem shopping center last week. She goes to a market that has two or three private security guards instead of only one.

N. LEWITT: Looking around all the time and looking over your shoulder, looking around at the people, seeing if anybody looks suspicious. Before going somewhere, just looking out and seeing if there's enough security.

VAUSE: Dr. Ahyeh Shalev is in charge of psychiatry at Jerusalem's Hasiasah (ph) Hospital. In December, he says, they treated a 1,000 people for post-traumatic stress. He believes the number has more than doubled in recent months.

AHYEH SHALEV, HASTIASSAH (ph) HOSPITAL: Israel is a society - it's a society of denial. We have been denying that for decades and at this point in time, it's not working very well for us.

VAUSE: Like many others, the Lewitts say they try to live normal lives because to give into fear, they say, is to give in to terror.

(on-camera): But what's normal? Just hours after we spoke with the Lewitt family came this, a car bomb in down town Jerusalem, a familiar scene of police, ambulance crews and emergency workers. In so many ways, this is the new normality in Israel.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And when we come back, the fallout from Haifa, a scene of one of the latest, big suicide bombings where Arab Israelis were among the victims.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Israeli Arabs, those Palestinians who all those years ago chose to stay in Israel and take Israeli citizenship have been caught up in this intifateh like never before. And in that bombing, that suicide attack in Haifa yesterday, they were among the victims. CNN's Ben Wedeman visited Haifa and has the pain of that community there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a small community, the loss of one is a loss for all. The Arab Israeli village of Turan was home to 32-year-old Souhail Adoue (ph), killed when a Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up in a Haifa restaurant.

In an area were lines are starkly drawn, Souhail (ph) criss- crossed those lines, an Israeli Arab who worked in a restaurant owned by Jews, managed by Arabs, where most of the customers were Jews.

Friends and relatives recall Souhail (ph) as a practical man, whose prime concern was to make a living for his young family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He hated politics. He never discussed politics. He worked in a restaurant, which presented co-existence between Arabs and Jews.

WEDEMAN: Souhail leaves behind a wife, eight months pregnant, and a 3-year-old son, Youseef (ph).

"We all know that violence begets violence," says Maha Rudel (ph), a relative. "It just causes bloodshed. No one wins. Arabs and Jews, all our blood is red."

Here, rage runs deep when Arab kills Arab.

"They killed my brother. Of course, I'm angry with them," says Souhail's (ph) brother, Muvail (ph), referring to Hamas.

Despite that anger, there is no love lost in Turan for Israeli Prime Minster Ariel Sharon, widely seen as an extremist.

"There's been enough killing on both sides," says Souhail's cousin, Mamoud (ph). "One side will never be able to get rid of the other. The only solution is for us to sit around a table and find a solution."

Until Sunday's bombing, Turan had been spared with trauma of the ongoing bloodshed.

Souhail's (ph) family asked that no Israeli official attend the funeral. Customers from the restaurant, including Jews, sent wreaths.

(on-camera): Another death, another funeral. Souhail Adoue (ph), like hundreds of Arabs and Jews, was an innocent victim of a conflict without mercy, seemingly without end.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Turan, in northern Israel.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So the tears and the blood keeps flowing and even amongst those in the Israeli establishment, the jury is still out as to whether this military operation will work. But even as we speak it it expanding, it is widening, it is deepening. That's our report for tonight. I'm Christiane Amanpur in Jerusalem.

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