Return to Transcripts main page

Live From...

Jerusalem: Israeli Forces Roll Into Bethlehem; Major Palestinian Headquarters in Ruins

Aired April 02, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Israeli forces roll into Bethlehem, as fighting with Palestinians rages in the city where Jesus was born.

In Ramallah, a major Palestinian headquarters lies in ruins.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): The sounds of battle last night told us that this was a ferocious assault. Daylight proved that correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Israel's leader offers Yasser Arafat a way out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: It will be one-way ticket. He will not be able to return.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: As the violence flares, a warning from the Palestinians.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAEB ERAKAT, PALESTINIAN CHIEF NEGOTIATOR: Christiane, I'm not scaring anyone, but I'm telling you, if this continues, we haven't seen the worst yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, Christiane Amanpour.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, HOST: As Israel's military incursion widens by the hour, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon caused quite a stir today when we went to the occupied West Bank and met with some of his forces there. He said that he had been approached by some international mediators to see whether they could go and visit Yasser Arafat. His answer, "yes, but you can take him out and don't ever bring him back."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHARON: I suggested, and I told them, that if they would like, that we will bring him somewhere or they will come with helicopter and will take him from here. But first of all, I will say that three things. One, I have to first bring it to the cabinet. It should be approved. Second, he cannot take anyone with him because they are wanted and murderers surround him there, and the third thing, it's going to be one-way ticket. He will not be able to return.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now, later, apparently unaware that the cameras were still rolling and his voice could still be picked up, Ariel Sharon was in conversation with his chief of staff, Lieutenant General Shaul Mofaz. And those two, in Hebrew, exchanged words; apparently shoot from the heart words on planning to kick Yasser Arafat out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GEN. SHAUL MOFAZ, ISRAELI CHIEF OF STAFF: Kick him out.

SHARON: Yes, I know.

MOFAZ: We have to take advantage of this opportunity now. There won't be another like it.

SHARON: You have to be very careful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Well, that proposal, certainly is a non-starter not only with most of the Israeli cabinet who have already had this idea floated before them and have decided against exile at the moment and for this isolation strategy, but also with Palestinian officials, who deride and dismiss that notion saying that Yasser Arafat will never leave and he, himself, Arafat, from his besieged headquarters told Arab television, al Jazeera, that he would never leave and that he would rather be martyred. The same thing he's been saying for the last five days of this incursion.

As we said, it is widening. Right now, reports that Israeli tanks are in Jenin, the West Bank northern town. Apparently, also tanks surrounding and overlooking a refugee camp there, a camp that Israelis believe many of the suicide bombers come from. Perhaps we will see a full-scale incursion as we've seen in other cities and towns by the time morning comes around.

Bethlehem has been the scene of the latest fighting and Israeli activity there. At The Church of The Nativity, where Jesus Christ was born, according to tradition, there is an ongoing situation with Palestinians holed up inside, apparently seeking sanctuary. According to some reports, there are injured people and the nuns inside are trying to care for them. Although we are told some are seriously injured and apparently, ambulances at this stage are not able to get there. We don't know exactly who else is inside. Some have mentioned armed Palestinians, others have said, yes, they were carrying arms because they were part of the security services. The Israeli defense force spokesmen won't tell us about what's going on. They say they won't do that as long as this operation continues.

And of course in Ramallah, on the fifth day of this military incursion, additional, stepped-up, Israeli military activity there and that's where we find Michael Holmes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES (voice-over): Sounds of gunfire and tank shells coming from the direction of the Palestinian Preventive Security headquarters in Ramallah. At dawn, helicopters fire at the compound. Israel says there was return fire from inside.

We drove the to the headquarters through mist and rain. At one point, an Israeli soldier stopping our journey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to film that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't go in that way.

HOLMES: Another route, and we found ourselves at the compound.

(on-camera): The sounds of battle last night told us that this was a ferocious assault. Daylight proved that correct.

(voice-over): Inside here, the previous night, perhaps 300 people, Palestinian prisoners, security forces, also civilian workers and claim Palestinian officials, some children of those workers in a day care center.

Sources tell us a deal brokered by the CIA saw the firing stop, and those inside allowed to leave, taken to an Israeli military facility in the West Bank for processing and questioning. What was a significant Palestinian facility rendered all but useless, and it was empty. Israel says those not on their wanted list will be released, including Palestinian security officers. Israel also says perhaps dozens of wanted terrorists were inside this place. Palestinian officials say they were prisoners here, but the compound, after all, includes a prison.

Those officials said many of the prisoners who were here were arrested at the request of Israeli and American security officials. But one senior Palestinian source we spoke with acknowledged there were prisoners on Israel's wanted list inside the compound, prisoners who hadn't been handed over.

In any event, after those here, including casualties, had left with Israeli troops, what was left behind was the smoldering office of the security chief, Jabril Rajoub, administrative offices. Bearing the scars of tank shells and rockets, this building housed the prison and a hospital.

At the Ramallah hospital, a mile away, a welcome sight, a United Nations humanitarian convoy, the U.N. negotiating with Israel to travel here from Jerusalem with badly needed blood and medical supplies.

Across the road, in a car park, a makeshift grave is dug. The reason is simple, the morgue is full. Two bodies on trays built for one. Perhaps 27 people here, some on the floor. There was simply no more room.

For tens of thousands of Palestinians cooped up in their homes for nearly five days, some relief, an announcement that the curfew had been lifted for two-and-a-half hours, what Israel called a humanitarian gesture to allow people to get food, water, milk. Those we spoke with said they needed it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No milk, no bread. This is the most important thing for us because we have kids in the house. No milk, no bread, no eggs, no -- nothing to eat. Nothing to eat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Milk...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Milk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... for children.

HOLMES: Before dusk, the curfew reimposed. Warning shots from armored vehicles sending people back to their homes for another night behind closed doors.

Michael Holmes, CNN, Ramallah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Next, a message to Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERAKAT: We need some -- to see some action by President Bush.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Christiane goes one-on-one with the Palestinian's chief negotiator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERAKAT: We condemn suicide bombing.

AMANPOUR: Is it justified?

ERAKAT: Christiane, I am a father of four children, and it breaks my heart to see Israeli children killed, to see Palestinian children get killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM is back in two minutes. But first, would exiling Yasser Arafat resolve the crisis in the Middle East? To take the quick vote, head to CNN.com. The AOL keyword is CNN. A reminder, this poll is not scientific.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Israeli and Palestinian sympathizers came to blows at a Paris airport Tuesday while awaiting the return of a militant French farmer. That farmer had slipped into Arafat's compound, before being detained, then expelled by Israeli soldiers.

AMANPOUR: Many people are asking whether there is yet any tangible results of this massive military operation. Today, according to Israeli sources, according to Israeli IDF spokespeople, the seventh possible suicide attack in seven days was narrowly averted as police and officials and soldiers at a checkpoint stopped a man looking suspicious. As they were checking him, he blew himself up. No one was killed, except the potential suicide bomber.

We went to Jericho today, a town on the West Bank, where Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erakat lives. He can't come into Jerusalem. He can't leave Jericho because of the Israeli closure. But we wanted to ask him about the ongoing operation. He made an impassioned plea for the U.S. to get involved. He made an impassioned plea for help. And he also said that he was surprised at the Israeli incursion of that Preventive Security headquarters in Ramallah, given that even the Israelis reveal that Jabril Rajoub is one of the few Palestinian officials who have in the past cracked down on militants.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERAKAT: As a matter of fact, I was assured by the Americans, by the Europeans, by many others, that Mr. Sharon, Mr. Bel-Eliezer and the Jew staff of the Israeli army (UNINTELLIGIBLE), have made a clear- cut commit not to attack Jabril's premises.

AMANPOUR: They say there are people holed up inside there who are on their suspect list, on their wanted list.

ERAKAT: Well, Christiane, last night - because (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mind, my ministry. I'm the minister of local government. All the planning and zoning of the West Bank, maps was burnt. I'm sure that they were find a pretext that somebody was hiding there.

AMANPOUR: Palestinian officials get very angry when it's suggested to them that they need to arrest those who are wanted, those who are known to have committed terrorist or violent acts. Why are you so angry about that? Why can't you just arrest these people?

ERAKAT: It's not that we're angry because we don't want to arrest these people. We are angry because either Sharon is destroying our communication centers, our command centers, our security headquarters. He's rounding up our security personnels. We don't -- I don't know if we have any authority anymore. At the end of the day, either we are relevant or President Arafat is relevant and he's accountable or Sharon says he's irrelevant, but they can't hold him accountable.

AMANPOUR: Well, let's talk about that moment on Wednesday, when a lot of people were saying that progress was being made, Americans were saying it, people in the region were saying it, towards a cease- fire arrangement. And then, many newspapers subsequently have said that it broke down because you, the Palestinians, insisted on a sentence linking cease-fire to a political track. Is that true?

ERAKAT: That's not true. I think President Arafat said that Thursday night, that he's willing to go to an agreement Tenet and a cease-fire unconditionally.

And I was sitting with General Zinni on Wednesday. We had a very successful meeting. We said to him, we are fully committed to the implementation of Tent.

AMANPOUR: No wiggle room?

ERAKAT: We're fully 100 percent committed to the implementation of Tenet.

AMANPOUR: In its purest form?

ERAKAT: In the way it was written. In everything, in every obligation that is there for us.

AMANPOUR: Arrests?

ERAKAT: In all obligations. It's - the indictment, the arrests, the maintenance of the one authority, the no tolerance to the parallel authorities to us, those...

AMANPOUR: Rounding up weapons?

ERAKAT: ... who go around collecting illegal weapons. All these obligations are there on Tenet, OK?

At the same time, there are, in Tenet, by the way, Israeli obligations like not conducting proactive -- what they call proactive attacks on our buildings and security headquarters -- and security headquarters, also arresting Israelis who commit attacks or plan attacks against Palestinians, stopping the incitement.

And I said to General Zinni, "On behalf of the Palestinian Authority, on behalf of President Arafat, sir, we are 100 percent committed to the implementation of Tenet with no additions, no omissions, no conditionality, and we hope that the other side will make the same commitment.

AMANPOUR: So just to be sure, you did not link implementation of Tenet to any concessions by the Israelis, any pledges to have political talks at that particular time?

ERAKAT: No, no. That the whole thing Zinni said that he's coming to the Tenet, then Mitchell, then the political horizon. And he said, "This is my mandate," and we agreed on this. Therefore, it was agreed. It was no problem. It was never put this question of going from Tenet to Mitchell to -- it was never a problem in the negotiations. AMANPOUR: There are many people who watch what's going on right now, certainly many people in America and in the west, who don't understand why Palestinian leaders, Arab leaders, have never been able to come out and just condemn suicide bombing.

ERAKAT: We condemn suicide bombing.

AMANPOUR: Is it justified?

ERAKAT: Christiane, I'm a father of four children, and it breaks my heart to see Israeli children killed, to see Palestinian children get killed. Nothing justifies what goes on out there in terms of suicide bombings or in terms of Israeli killing Palestinians.

AMANPOUR: What is the shortest way out of what appears to be the deepest abyss that this region has seen in 50 years?

ERAKAT: I think the shortest way now is to have a sense of direction, and I will address myself to President Bush, and to the prominent members of the Security Council who passed the Resolution 1402 just two days ago.

This resolution has all the ingredients that are required to deescalate and deconflict, one, the element of the cease-fire, the Israeli withdrawal, the implementation of Tenet and Mitchell and that political resumption of negotiations.

And this resolution mentioned Zinni's name. And I would say to President Bush, there are three American names that are mentioned in this Security Council resolution, General Zinni, George Tenet and George Mitchell. We need some -- to see some action by President Bush. We need to see some sense of direction when President Bush says that the Sharon -- what Sharon is doing on the ground, which in my opinion is death terror and war crimes in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of defense, President Bush, you are wrong. There are 3.3 million Palestinians caged like animals in their villages, towns, refugee camps. They are always taking part of from them. Their life is being destroyed.

And Christiane, I'm not scaring anyone, but I'm telling you if this continues, we haven't seen the worst yet. We have not seen the worst yet. Palestinians and Israelis need help and the international community must step up its intervention and President Bush has the responsibility to take command, to show some sense of direction, by beginning the implementation of Resolution 1402.

AMANPOUR: President Bush and the administration appear to equate what's happening here with the war on terrorism. They're very clear when they talk about the Palestinian responsibility to curb the terrorism, as he says, to rein in the violence. Do you buy that comparison?

ERAKAT: No, ii don't buy this comparison, and I don't think -- first of all, I don't think the Americans, other than in Afghanistan, are destroying a nation. As a matter of fact, I see the Americans are rebuilding a nation in Afghanistan, building a school, sending girls back to school, putting water pipes, electricity and so on. All the Israelis are doing here is destroying a nation, destroying the infrastructure we've been building with American money, by the way. We build the water supplies, the physics supplies, the road supplies, mainly with European, Japanese and American money and other donors. That's what Sharon is doing now, is destroying all. And I don't think that President Bush does realize, and he should realize, that Palestinians will not live under occupation for the rest of their lives.

I was 12 years old when the occupation came to my hometown, Jericho. Now, my daughters -- my twin daughters are 20 years old, born and raised under occupation. I need to show them some hope that one day they will live as normally as President Bush's daughters, free.

AMANPOUR: Are there still moderates on the Palestinian side? In other words, is there still any hope that there are moderates on each side that can reach out to each other?

ERAKAT: There will always be moderates. I'm a person who lived all his life believing that all we need is a practical solution and a Palestinian state must exist next to the state of Israel. And there are moderates in Israel. And at the end of the game, we will prevail. I know that.

AMANPOUR: You said you believe in a political solution for your future, but there are many who watch the suicide bombings and who have concluded now that the Palestinians believe that the only way to statehood is through blood, through death, through martyrdom, as they call it, a violent cycle to victory.

ERAKAT: You know I'm not saying that the moderate Palestinian camp is not shattered. I'm not saying that we are not weakened. I'm not saying that hope is evaporating from Palestinians' minds. When they see Sharon in one year adding 34 new settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, when they the confiscation of land, when they see Sharon's men attempt to sustain and maintain and deepen the occupation, people like me and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) moderate camp, is really the shattered. But as long as the sun will shine, Palestinians and Israelis need peace more than any people on this earth. And the only way, at the end of the game, is a meaningful peace process that would lead to ending the Israeli occupation, to establish a Palestinian state next to the state of Israel. If we don't do it this year, it will be done the year after. If we don't do it the year after, it may be in 10 years time. But the question to those out there, the Sharons and his like, how many lives of Palestinians, and Israelis, will it take to convince you that there is no military solution to this problem?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: There's, in fact, no sign of any solution at the moment although General Zinni, the American mediator remains here. There are no talks between Israelis and Palestinians. Some insiders are saying perhaps the only new point of departure to get out of this mess would to be try to implement that latest U.N. resolution calling for a cease-fire and a withdrawal. And when we come back, the Bush administration under increasing fire for staying on the sidelines.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Where next for the Bush administration? And what kind of signals is it sending to the players here? On the same day that the Israeli prime minister offers Yasser Arafat a one-way ticket out of here, Secretary of State Powell rebuffs that idea and President Bush re-establishes his vision of an independent Palestinian state. What appears to be clear is that this is an administration increasingly on the defensive about its handling of this crisis. Kelly Wallace reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Vision for the Middle East, Israel and a Palestinian state living side by side.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So that Israeli boys and girls can grow up in a peaceful society. I feel the same thing about the Palestinians. I hope that they can have their own peaceful state at peace with their neighbor, Israel.

WALLACE: Mr. Bush does not address his critics, leaving that to his secretary of state.

POWELL: I can assure you that I am deeply engaged every day, for hours of the day, as are my colleagues in the Bush administration, to include the president.

WALLACE: Yet, there is growing criticism that the president himself has not done enough, including not speaking directly with the Israeli and Palestinian leaders since Israeli tanks stormed into Palestinian areas.

ALBRIGHT: I regret very much that this administration has not been as fully involved as we were.

WALLACE: The Bush administration has made no secret, it believes that President Clinton pushed too hard during the Camp David talks, but some Mid East observers believe Mr. Bush has been two hands off.

LEE HAMILTON, WOODROW WILSON CENTER: Certainly, the impression throughout the Middle East and I think throughout the world and now throughout this country is that the president really has not made a high priority of the Middle East conflict.

WALLACE: Even members of the president's own party believe Mr. Bush could do more, including dispatching Powell to the region to negotiate a cease-fire linked to discussions of political issues.

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: We need to elevate it to the level of secretary of state and to have a broader - on an overall settlement as well as on security. WALLACE (on-camera): For now, U.S. officials don't see inclined to send Powell to the region, believing the focus should be on Mid East Envoy Anthony Zinni's cease-fire negotiations. U.S. officials though are certainly worried about the situation getting worse, but are also concerned that any more involvement brings with it an added risk of failure.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, Media, Pennsylvania.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Well, with no negotiations going on and the crisis only deepening, many people are beginning to ask does Arafat, does Sharon, even want a political settlement?

That's our report for now. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com