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Jerusalem: Israeli Soldiers Ambushed on West Bank; Secretary of State to Meet With Yasser Arafat

Aired April 09, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Another brutal and bloody day in the West Bank. Meanwhile, Colin Powell says he will meet with Yasser Arafat. Israel says it won't even talk to the Palestinian leader. Will anything get done this weekend? We'll look at that and more. I'm Bill Hemmer. LIVE FROM JERUSALEM begins now.

ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM: Ambush In The West Bank. The West Bank offensive continues, but, at a price.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIEL SHARON, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL (through translator): This is a difficult day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Other difficulties, making peace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: It is in their interest now to do everything they can to control their passions, to control the violence, to bring it down so that we can get a political process moving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: See the big picture, such a small space, yet so much conflict.

Plus, the view from the street in a land where walls once came tumbling down. They're going back up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It wasn't my dream, of course but this is the reality. We live in Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM: Ambush In The West Bank. Now, CNN's Bill Hemmer. HEMMER: And good evening once again from Jerusalem. We come to you tonight where a lot of people thought that partial military withdrawal might bring a slow end to the bloodshed, but tonight you have every reason to think again. Israel suffered perhaps its worst military setback yet, 13 Israeli soldiers killed after they were ambushed in a West Bank battle earlier today. Also, late on Tuesday, Israel was showing off what it believes is solid progress in its current campaign in the West Bank. That's where we begin tonight, in Jenin, and CNN's John Vause.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are the weapons the Israeli military says belong to Palestinian militants and the reason behind the operation on the West Bank, a staggering collection of automatic and semiautomatic rifles, RPGs and mortars, bomb-making equipment found inside a house in the Jenin refugee camp. There's no way to verify the Israeli Army account because the area is closed to journalists. All these pictures were provided by the Israeli Defense Force. This is how the Israelis say they're dismantling the terrorist network. The house was wired with explosives and destroyed.

But after a week of fighting, the Israeli losses are beginning to mount. According to the military, a group of reservists were caught in an ambush, a blast from a suicide bomber setting off explosions in nearby homes, which had been booby-trapped. Palestinian gunmen then opened fire on the wounded.

SHARON (through translator): This is a difficult day. There was a very tough battle between the IDF forces and the terrorist organizations.

VAUSE: In all, 13 Israeli soldiers were killed. Palestinians claim the Israelis set off the explosion, not knowing their own troops were nearby. And the Palestinians say their losses now total more than 150 and hundreds of Palestinian civilians have fled Jenin for Ramallah, looking for shelter.

Along Israel's northern border, Israel says Katyusha rockets were fired by Hezbollah militants into the northern Golan Heights. Two missiles landed near civilian settlements, but there were no injuries. Israeli air force and artillery units returned fire.

And in the small town of Durah, the Israeli offensive rolls on. Tanks and troops supported by helicopter gun ships on a mission to arrest more suspected militant and seize more weapons, a mission the Israelis say is now complete in two West Bank towns, in Tulkarm and Qalqilya.

As the heavy armor and soldiers pulled out, Palestinians began cleaning up after the weeklong occupation. Israel says the pullout is proof they are wrapping up the operation, but at the same time, insisting it will be in their own time, in their own way and without bowing to international pressure.

The Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon says this is a fight for the survival of the Jewish people.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And now, the job for the Secretary of State Colin Powell. He will be here in Jerusalem in about two day's time, but frankly, his job has gotten tougher by the day. We now know Colin Powell will meet with Yasser Arafat, which should make for a pretty interesting picture inside that besieged compound in Ramallah. Israeli troops and tanks still surround the Palestinian leader.

Again, Colin Powell will be here in two days. Tonight though, he's in Madrid, Spain, so, too, is Andrea Koppel, traveling with Colin Powell. Here's Andrea now on the day for Colin Powell next - soon to be meeting here in the Middle East.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like an engineer trying to plug a leaky dam before it overflows, Secretary Powell arrived in Cairo eager to win Egypt's support for an Israeli/Palestinian truce, as well as an end to Palestinian terrorism even before a full Israeli withdrawal from West Bank towns and cities is under way.

POWELL: I would ask all parties now to speak out against this kind of activity. I would ask all leaders of Arab nations, all Palestinian leaders to say to their people and to say to people throughout the world, this is the time to stop this kind of activity.

KOPPEL: But faced with some of the biggest demonstrations Egypt has seen in decades, since it became the first Arab state to sign a peace treaty with Israel in 1979, Egypt's president has already moved to end most official contact with the Jewish state. And echoing statements by other Arab leaders, President Mubarak also told Powell in the words of one Egyptian official, "It takes two hands to wash a face."

With Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, under siege and most West Bank cities controlled by Israel, Mubarak and his deputy said the next significant move must be Israel's.

AHMED MAHER, EGYPTIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Security cannot be achieved through force, through the use of force, but through the creation of an environment that is helpful to create confidence between the parties.

KOPPEL: As proof there's cause for some confidence, U.S. officials point to Israel's sudden decision to allow Arafat's deputies to see him in Ramallah this week and to the beginning of a withdrawal from the West Bank.

POWELL: Nevertheless, the president hopes that Prime Minister Sharon will end this operation quickly and start to remove the forces now. KOPPEL: People are more willing to do things in private, explained a senior aide traveling with Powell.

(on-camera): And so, the second day of Secretary Powell's Mid East peacemaking mission ends on a similar note, as did the first, with yet another Arab leader telling the United States the ball is in Israel's court.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, Cairo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Now, from the White House tonight where President Bush has said for days now for the Israeli military to withdraw its troops. We saw a partial withdraw again about 24 hours ago from two towns in the West Bank. But still at this point, Ariel Sharon says he is convinced that the military operation is making headway and it will not end until its mission and its goals are met.

To the White House now with more reaction from John King, who's there now on the Front Lawn.

John, curious to know what these repeated calls from the White House to the Israeli government -- how are they feeling, knowing in large part, their message has been, frankly, ignored, publicly anyway?

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bill, yesterday, we heard the president's frustration in what he did say. He said he meant it when he asked Prime Minister Sharon to pull back those troops and he wanted it to happen tonight as the frustration, some aides here say irritation as the White House grows.

It was how the president didn't say it. He had an appearance here at the White House with the NATO secretary general, Lord Robertson. The two men talking about NATO's coordination with the United States in the war on terrorism. As they finished their statements, a reporter asked the president, "Are you upset with Prime Minister Sharon because he has not heeded your call to pull back the troops?" The president left the room. He clearly heard the question. He refused to answer that question. Top aids say he does not want to get into a daily sparring match with a man he considers to be a friend and an ally, but certainly, a great deal of tension in the relationship right now.

U.S. officials saying even privately, that ambush in the West Bank would not have happened had Prime Minister Sharon heeded the president's advice and pulled back his troops - Bill.

HEMMER: John, we just heard from Andrea Koppel with Colin Powell. How much of his message to the Palestinian leader is to denounce in Arabic to the Palestinian people -- denounce terrorism and take a cooling off period in order to work anywhere toward a meaningful cease-fire? How much of that is the message in Ramallah letter later this week here?

KING: We are told, Bill, it will be a very blunt and pointed message. Secretary Powell, number one, will say he is meeting with Mr. Arafat not because the administration believes Mr. Arafat has done what it has asked of him. Remember, not only frustration with Prime Minister Sharon here at the White House. What Secretary Powell will say is, "I am here to meet with you, sir, because you are the leader of the Palestinian people. But we think you should heed our calls to arrest people and hold them when you arrest them, don't just let them go. You must make public statements in English and more importantly, as you noted, in Arabic repeatedly denouncing terror and violence as a tool of your confrontation with Israel."

So the administration says, yes, it must meet with Yasser Arafat because he is the leader of the Palestinian people. Yes, Secretary Powell is facing a great deal of pressure from Arab nations to go ahead with that meeting. But President Bush said it perhaps best, representing the White House view. In an interview with the "Wall Street Journal" yesterday, he said, "Some ask me if Mr. Arafat has lost my trust. He has never earned it" -- Bill.

HEMMER: Wow! John, then -- if Colin Powell is backed into a corner and Yasser Arafat does not heed that message, what's the plan at that point?

KING: Well, one of the things we are already hearing from the administration, as you noted, the trip has become more difficult by the day, if you will, Secretary Powell's trip. Administration officials who now said the goal was a cease-fire - who at the beginning, said the goal was a cease-fire, now saying they cannot even say with any certainty that Secretary Powell will be able to broker a cease-fire. They say that is why it is so important that he meet with the Arab leaders, so important that he meet with the European Union officials and the U.N. secretary-general, he will see in Madrid. They say he has to think about the long-term here in case there is no progress or not enough progress to get a cease-fire in the short-term.

So you can see as the violence continues, as the new attack on the Palestinians, the continuing Israeli military offensive, here in Washington and those traveling with Secretary Powell trying to dramatically lower the expectations. They say they can't even guarantee a cease-fire by the time he leaves Jerusalem this weekend.

HEMMER: Got it, John. Thank you. John King at the White House. A rainy Washington D.C. John, thanks for your time tonight.

Unclear right now if indeed Colin Powell may extend that trip if he feels he's not making any progress. John mentioned a few days on the ground right now on the schedule. We are told that could be extended depending on the amount of progress or the lack thereof.

To the U.N. now, east side of Manhattan, in New York City, where the U.N. Security Council, once again, for the second straight day debated the crisis here in the Middle East. Arab countries now pushing for a resolution to put more pressure on Israel to withdraw its troops in the West Bank.

The U.S. though says it will veto any resolution saying two things -- previous resolutions supported by the U.S. have produced nothing on the ground here and Colin Powell, they say, needs time on the ground to talk with both parties, Yasser Arafat included there.

Meanwhile, more harsh words from Iraq today. From Baghdad, yesterday, it said it would suspend oil production for one month's time. Today, the U.N. says at two loading terminals, they saw no oil being pumped, one in the Persian Gulf, and the other one in Turkey.

Baghdad, today, he says the U.S. will be punished for its support of Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. AMER RASHEED, IRAQI OIL MINISTER: We have to have -- to harm the American economy in one way so that the American administration will realize that supporting Zionist regime, it also will suffer economically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: To date, no other Arab countries have followed Saddam Hussein's lead on this. Oil industry analysts say if no other countries do, the net effect of Iraq's move basically will amount to nothing.

We'll be back. LIVE FROM JERUSALEM continues in a moment here.

ANNOUNCER: Coming next, perspective, a world of conflict in an area the size of New Hampshire. Plus, another view, how the world media is reporting the ongoing crisis.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: The West Bank covers about 2,263 square miles, an area about the size of the U.S. state of Delaware. It has a population of more than two million people.

HEMMER: One thing that visitors always notice firsthand here in the Middle East is how small the geography is. In fact, we're in Jerusalem, only six miles from Bethlehem, only 10 miles from Ramallah and just about a 30-minute drive from Tel Aviv.

We're going to start a new series tonight and run it throughout the week to introduce you to more insight here in the Middle East. Tonight, Bill Schneider has a look at the big picture, a big picture in such a small and sacred land.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on-camera): This deadly conflict has been going on for over 50 years, longer than the Cold War. What's it all about? Real estate, a very small piece of real estate.

(voice-over): Two peoples, one land. How much land? Let's take the whole of Israel in the West Bank and Gaza and fly it overseas, dropping it on top of the United States. It's not much bigger than the state of New Hampshire. Now, compare the populations. Israel, the West Bank and Gaza nearly 10 million people. New Hampshire? Just slightly more than a million. Big difference. About the same small amount of land as New Hampshire, but eight times as many people, fighting over it.

If you separate the territories Israel captured in 1967, Israel is even smaller than New Hampshire. The whole country is less than 300 miles from north to south. At its widest, just 85 miles across. At its narrowest, Israel is about eight miles wide, eight miles.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For a Texan, a first visit of Israel is an eye-opener. The narrowest point, it's only eight miles from the Mediterranean to the Old Armistice Line. That's less than from the top of the bottom to Dallas/Ft. Worth Airport.

SCHNEIDER: Within those pre-1967 borders, including Jerusalem, Jews make up 80 percent of the population. One-fifth of Israel citizens are Arabs. The West Bank and Gaza are overwhelmingly Arab. Add them in and Jews make up only a bear majority of the overall population.

Now, consider this -- the birth rate among Israeli Jews is 2.6 children per family. That's high by U.S. and European standards. For Israeli Arabs, the birth rate is more than four children. For Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, the birth rate soars, an average of six children. At that rate, Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza by the year 2020, which is one reason why many Israelis have come to favor a separate Palestinian state.

Israel is a democracy and if it has a majority Arab population, it cannot remain a Jewish state for long.

(on-camera): But if Israel withdraws to its 1967 borders, as Arab states demand, can the security of such a tiny state be defended against the overwhelming population of the Arab world? Imagine if the rest of the U.S. were to declare war on New Hampshire.

Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And for the record, Israelis like to think that Israel is roughly the size of New Jersey. We have all felt that was a bit of an overstatement. Nonetheless, you get the picture. Here in the Middle East, the picture is very small in terms of land.

Throughout the coverage here in the Middle East since this conflict began, frankly, 12 days ago, journalists have found themselves in the middle of the story far too many times. Once again, today, on Tuesday, another journalist found himself in the center of the story. Near the town of Nablus, a French photographer with the France II Network, shot and wounded there, traveling at the time with a CNN crew. The photographer was hit in the collarbone, not life- threatening injuries. He was traveling with a medic fortunately. The Kevlar, the bulletproof jacket saved his life. It is not clear tonight which side fired that shot. And if nothing else in this part of the world, opinions are varied and are numerous. In fact, many people have many opinions about how we are covering the story here throughout the Middle East. Ask a different side, and you'll get a different answer as to how fair they believe we are being.

Tonight, we're going to take a step outside of CNN for another view, frankly, to look at other television networks around the world other than CNN to see how they are covering and watching the same stories we are. We have two reports in a moment. Israel I television will be second. Tonight, we begin with the Arab Language Network, Al Jazeera.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Any information on the ambush that led to the killing of 13 soldiers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Our fighters used booby traps in a house and they ambushed the soldiers and they acknowledge that 13 soldiers have been killed in action.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Is it possible that there is more than 13 soldiers, since we know the Israelis don't declare the correct number?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, the Israelis don't declare how many people they have lost because they don't want to tell people what is going on here. They are cowards. When they lose one soldier, everybody starts screaming. There are hundreds of people killed and injured here and nobody has said anything.

We want an international intervention to protect innocent civilians. There are tens of people lying dead on the ground. Ambulances have been barred. There are injured people. There are women and children and innocent people. Where is the international community? Where are the Arabs? Where is the human rights?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): In Jenin, fighting continues. The Commander of The Central Command, Mushakitan (ph) says that dozens of Palestinians are still fighting and the IDF is refraining from using fire from the air, using helicopters, et cetera in order to avoid civilian casualties.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We have many casualties. The hard fighting in Jenin is the result of the fact that, in this refugee camp, exists the infrastructure for suicide bombers for the Hamas, from the Islamic Jihad and for the Fateh.

The reserve force operating here went into a compound of houses. A suicide bomber was probably hiding inside, and when the soldiers got in, the suicide bomber detonated himself and also detonated a series of booby traps, and all of the houses collapsed in the process.

A rescue force that came was also hurt. Only hours later, most of the soldiers were rescued, were evacuated. Three of the soldiers still stayed behind, under the ruins. They were only evacuated later in the afternoon.

The amount of the explosives inside the houses, inside of the refugee camp, forces us to fight from door to door, very slowly in order to reduce the risk to our forces.

In the evening hours, there was still fierce fire exchanges between the IDF and the Palestinians. The option of firing from the air was ruled out in order to spare civilian casualties. This entire area, there's a mixture of a passive civilian population of women, children, elderly people, who are mixed with the terrorists, and, therefore, an operation from the air would have caused serious casualties among civilians. So the solution of using bombs from the air, an air raid, that is not possible in this kind of fighting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Next, risking their lives for peace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yesterday morning, a soldier said, "I'm going to shoot you then." And I said, "Then shoot me."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: One couple's commitment to a difficult way, when LIVE FROM JERUSALEM continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Welcome back as our coverage continues again LIVE FROM JERUSALEM tonight. We have moved and extended our show to one hour this evening. Given the events of the day today and anticipating the events throughout the week, we will continue a one-hour special as our coverage rolls on throughout the week here.

Coming up half past the hour, the quick update on the events we are watching at this hour -- Israel confirms now that it has entered, for the first time in this operation; it's entered the Gaza Strip. They say Palestinian gunmen fired at Israeli soldiers working a road just outside a settlement in Gaza. The Israeli troops went in there to take out the gunmen. They say they got away, but a house where the shots were fired was blown up in Gaza.

Ariel Sharon says he's in a fight right now for Israel's survival. His comments made today again, after Israel says it will press on with its operation, chasing down Palestinian militants and until they are defeated. That speech came a day after Ariel Sharon addressed the Knesset.

And also, shortly after 13 Israeli soldiers were killed in the West Bank town of Jenin, Israel says they were ambushed. Thirteen dead there. Nine others injured. The Palestinians say they've lost a 150 so far in Jenin alone.

Colin Powell will be here in two days' time and yesterday, he said that he plans to meet with Yasser Arafat, and today he confirmed that. He will meet with the Palestinian leader inside of his compound in Ramallah, which should make for a very interesting picture.

Yasser Arafat still holed up in what is left of that besieged compound in Ramallah. Inside, there are about 40 peace activists who moved in about 10 days ago. Peace (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from around the world have made their way to Ramallah and as Michael Holmes now reports, peace in this part of the world is a tough thing to find.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can't be so arrogant as to go out there...

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some call them the odd couple, the American Jew, his Palestinian-American fiancee. Instead of planning their wedding in the states, they're challenging the Israeli Army in the West Bank.

HUWAIDA ARRAF, ACTIVIST: My family is extremely worried. My mom calls me every day to come home.

HOLMES: During our interview, gunfire. They don't even notice.

ADAM SHAPIRO, ACTIVIST: I feel good about what I'm doing and I think it's the right thing to do at this moment. So, you know, if a bullet were to hit me and this was to happen, at least I feel secure, and I think my family feels secure and people who know me know that I'm doing what I feel is right, to be doing at this time.

HOLMES: They're among dozens of foreign nationals in the West Bank defying curfews, delivering food taking, what they call nonviolent direction action, hoping white vests and bravado will keep them alive.

(on-camera): A day after the tanks rolled into Ramallah, they started appearing on these empty streets, from Europe, the United States, even from Israel, supporting, they say, Palestinian civilians and opposing occupation.

(voice-over): They're still arriving. This, a strategy meeting for new arrivals, advice for the uninitiated.

ARRAF: I can tell you when I'm standing in front of a tank who has just fired, you know, and you're determined not to move, it's really -- you're holding onto the just nature of this struggle and believing that you're right is stronger than their might.

HOLMES: Perhaps no better example of their audacity, some say foolishness, than when this group strolled past tanks, soldiers and warning shots to enter Yasser Arafat's office last week. Some 30 or so are still there.

Chivvas Moore born in Missouri delivers food to houses, among other things. To do so, she walks past soldiers trying to enforce a 24-hour a day curfew. CHIVVAS MOORE, ACTIVIST: Yesterday morning, a soldier said, "I'm going to shoot you then," and I said "then shoot me."

HOMES: Are you prepared to take a bullet for this cause?

MOORE: Yes, I am. I'm prepared to die. To me, to be alive and do nothing against what I believe is wrong is worth nothing. I would rather be dead.

HOLMES: The risks, despite some obvious Israeli restraint are enormous. After the fighting died down at this apartment loft, activists literally play a tug of war with an injured Palestinian. The army won, but nothing seems to deter these people.

HUWAIDA ARRAF, ACTIVIST: People that I think are motivated and moved to come and put their lives at risk are operating basically on, you know, the fundamentals of humanity that we would hope everyone, that would motivate everyone to act.

HOLMES: For Adam Shapiro, who has lived in Ramallah for six months now, the price is not just his safety but that of his family in New York.

ADAM SHAPIRO: My family has faced death threats. They've had a very small march on their home, but it's become very difficult for them. They have to have police protection.

HOLMES: He, too, has had death threats. There's going to be plenty of people who say, "look, you just shouldn't be here. You're setting yourselves up and if you get shot, well it's your own fault."

SHAPIRO: I'd say that's true. We do take responsibility for ourselves and we don't seek to, you know, lay that responsibility if we get hurt.

HOLMES: Adam Shapiro is keenly aware of his Jewish name, not he says in Ramallah, but when he crosses Israeli military checkpoints.

SHAPIRO: When soldiers see my name and I'm crossing a checkpoint and coming into Ramallah and they find out I live here, I think it forces them to question for a second like how I can exist and live here perfectly normally and not have any problems when they're trained to think that this is a hotbed of terrorism and that, you know, that the Jews, the people here want to kill all the Jews and it's just simply not the fact.

HOLMES: For now, the odd couple are staying put. They will leave, but only because Adam's visa expires soon. Michael Holmes, CNN, Ramallah.

HEMMER: Ramallah also will be the scene, we anticipate, later in the week when Colin Powell says he will meet with the Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat. Israel says Arafat is irrelevant, so how then does the Palestinian leader fit in the current scenario? We'll debate that with two guests, coming up when our coverage continues, LIVE FROM JERUSALEM. ANNOUNCER: Ahead, we've all seen the pictures. Would you like to come visit? They did. Plus, the wall and why they want it that way. LIVE FROM JERUSALEM continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Yasser Arafat was born on August 24, 1929. In 1971, he became the commander-in-chief of the Palestinian Revolutionary Forces, and 23 years later, he won the Nobel Peace Prize with Israeli Leaders Yitzak Rabin and Shimon Peres.

HEMMER: Earlier today in Cairo, Egypt, the Secretary of State Colin Powell once again said he will meet with Yasser Arafat when he arrives here in Jerusalem later in the week.

Israel has said that it will not talk with the Palestinian Leader. Earlier it called Yasser Arafat irrelevant. There are questions now. Yasser Arafat still inside that besieged compound in Ramallah.

He's been there now for 12 days running with tanks and troops outside from the Israeli side. March 29th, the date where Yasser Arafat was surrounded. How relevant then is he? Let's talk about that with two guests tonight.

First, Daniel Pipes is our guest from Seattle, editor of the Middle East Forum. And, also from Washington tonight, Mark Perry is our guest. He's a Washington correspondent for "The Palestine Report." Gentlemen, good to see you all tonight, and thank you for coming on. It's 3:30 here in Jerusalem. It's 8:30 in Washington and 5:30 in Seattle. We're crossing a lot of time zones this evening.

Mark, first to you. Colin Powell, we are told, will tell under no uncertain terms to Yasser Arafat that he must publicly in English and in Arabic denounce terrorism. Is he ready to do that, Mark?

MARK PERRY, "THE PALESTINE REPORT": I don't know for sure, but I think that he ought to be ready to do so. Clearly, the bombings in Israel are not defensible. The bombings in Israel take innocent lives. We've seen that today in the West Bank.

I think Mr. Arafat should step up to the line. He should denounce terrorism. He should denounce the targeting of innocent civilians, but I think he also has to tell Mr. Powell that he needs a political horizon, some political hope for his people, a political program, and I hope that Colin Powell arrives with such a political program.

HEMMER: Here's what I want to know from you, Mark, before I go to Daniel. It has been my observation here in the Middle East that it's very difficult for these two leaders to truly admit in their hearts that they want peace for their own people. First to you, Mark on Yasser Arafat. Do you think he has that in his heart to do that?

PERRY: I think he does. He almost signed a peace agreement in Taba (ph) two years ago. He didn't get control of his own borders or his own resources and he really -- he turned away from it.

We had Ariel Sharon marching on the Temple Mount. I think that in the end, he knows that the vision for peace includes a Palestinian State. You're not going to get there by suicide bombing, and you're not going to get there by having the Israelis invade the West Bank. There has to be some political hope and there has to be a program on the table.

HEMMER: Yes, there's truly a scenario to this developing in the Middle East that's quite confounding if you really want to look at it, Daniel. Israel says it won't even talk to Yasser Arafat. Colin Powell will. What's the net outcome of this meeting this weekend, if one side says forget it, you're off our table, and the U.S. is coming here and saying essentially here's one more chance for you.

DANIEL PIPES, MIDDLE EAST FORUM: Big fat zero. Nothing's going to come of it. I'd bet my mortgage on it. I can't see how anything will come of this, Bill, because the whole structure of these talks is essentially irrelevant. There is a war taking place.

For the last half hour, we've been hearing the details of it, dead here, dead there. I just reckon that the number of Israelis killed in the last 16 or year and a half has been two-thirds of that that were killed in the 1967 war. This is war.

So somebody comes wandering in with a peace negotiating plan, diplomatic initiative. Nobody pays attention to him. Now, since he's Secretary Powell, he gets everyone's respect. Everyone welcomes him, but it's completely irrelevant.

HEMMER: If that's the case then, if the net effect is zero, where does Israel hope to go at this point then, given the fact that the Palestinians say Yasser Arafat is the only address in the Palestinian world today?

PIPES: Well, I don't say quite what you attribute to me. What I'm saying is, it is a war, and the Israelis have their aspirations for the war and the Palestinians have theirs. The Israeli aspiration clearly is to signal to the Palestinians that the use of force is not going to work, and that it's going to be counterproductive so stop it.

The Palestinian aspiration is to demoralize the Israelis, and as clear from all the mosques and the media and the Palestinian Authority and elsewhere, to eliminate Israel, destroy Israel, so you got a war.

HEMMER: I guess the point of my question, the area to where I was going was, if Yasser Arafat is not the man that Israel will talk to, then who is? And perhaps, Mark, you can answer that question for us. Is Yasser Arafat serving his people in the best interest of the Palestinians right now, or is there someone else there that has not come to the surface that we need to start paying attention to?

PERRY: Well, I understand the importance of your question, but it's not a question that I can answer or Daniel Pipes can answer or anyone else can answer, certainly the Israelis or the Americans. This is a question that the Palestinian people need to answer. The truth of the matter is that Yasser Arafat is now more popular in the Palestinian Authority than ever before. He is the elected leader of the Palestinian Authority. The United States should not be in the business of replacing national leaders. We should be able to negotiate with the leaders that are there.

Certainly, Mr. Arafat has proven to be a very capable leader of his people. He is an elected leader of the Palestinian people. Mr. Powell has said that he's going to meet him. I think that's a good decision. There is no one else there to deal with. We have to deal with the facts, the political facts. He is a political fact.

PIPES: Bill, may I take another crack at it?

HEMMER: If that's the case - yes, you sure can, Daniel, go ahead.

PIPES: My position would be that just as we didn't seek out someone to negotiate in the Taliban regime and we're not looking for someone in Saddam Hussein's regime, we shouldn't be looking for someone in this failed, corrupt, aggressive Palestinian Authority. We got to start over again, just as we did in Afghanistan, and presumably will be doing in Iraq. This is a terrorist outfit that has to be done away with.

PERRY: It's not up to us. It's not up to us to choose.

HEMMER: I'm running out of time here, Daniel. I want to get back to Mark in a second here. But in the interest of fairness, Daniel do you believe Ariel Sharon in his heart has the ability to say to the Jewish people here in Israel, the Palestinians are OK after all?

PIPES: Once the Palestinians show over a period of time that they're willing to coexist in harmony with Israel, for sure, but that's not the case unfortunately.

HEMMER: Mark Perry, final word here before we have to wrap this up.

PERRY: There was a chance for peace three or four years ago when Yitzak Rabin was the Prime Minister of Israel and he reached across the table in a gesture of peace to Yasser Arafat, and Yasser Arafat responded, and we didn't have terrorism against Israelis. We had Israelis and Palestinians working together for peace.

The extremist here is not Yasser Arafat. It's Ariel Sharon. The depredations that are going on right now are being conducted by the Israelis. What the United States has to do is reengage in this conflict, separate the two sides, stop the terrorist bombings and stop the violence. If Colin Powell can do that, we've made some progress.

HEMMER: And we shall all see that possibly through the weekend, depending on how long Colin Powell stays in the area. One Israeli government source earlier today told me that what the place needs is a babysitter, much like Warren Christopher or Henry Kissinger has done over the past several decades. We will see if Colin Powell can fit that bill this weekend. Thanks to my guests, Daniel Pipes in Seattle, Mark Perry in Washington, D.C.

PERRY: Thank you.

HEMMER: I don't know if we moved the ball very much for you, but it's been a very difficult struggle certainly on the ground and you men know it just about as well as anyone. Gentlemen, thanks again.

Our coverage continues tonight. We're one hour this evening LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, back in a moment here.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, a city that is a beacon to tourists, now blanketed under tight security. See who's still visiting when LIVE FROM JERUSALEM returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: In 2000, almost 2.7 million tourists visited Israel. Of that, roughly six of every 10 visitors came from Europe, and two of every 10 came from the United States.

HEMMER: You know, one way to judge the current conflict here and the impact certainly is just to watch the streets of Jerusalem. One tour company actually fired 95 percent of its tour guides simply because there was no business. You see taxi drivers sitting idle in the streets of Jerusalem. Some hotels have closed their doors because there is no business.

There are not many tourists here, but we have found a few. Chris Burns now on a few and why they came to Jerusalem.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Mount of Olives, where the Bible says Christ ascended to the heavens. Where believers from around the world used to flock -- no more.

(on camera): This tourist overlook here on the Mount of Olives was built especially for the millennium tourists. And there were thousands of them. Hundreds on a nice day like this, you could see, just filling this area right here, coming in busloads every 15 minutes. Now what you see is a very empty place, with a beautiful view of the Old City.

(voice-over): Two rare visitors are Francois and Beatrice, from Paris. And they didn't come as tourists. They came to visit their daughter, a journalist who works here.

(on camera): Do you go to cafes?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. We avoid that.

BURNS: You avoid that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We avoid the cafe.

BURNS: How do you enjoy yourself here? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are enjoying visiting the city.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The city is very interesting.

BURNS (voice-over): On to the Old City, a place under tight security. At the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, the site where Christians believe Christ was crucified, Israeli soldiers are the biggest tour group. At the Western Wall, a trickle of believers. And above, at Islam's Dome of the Rock, access is highly restricted by Israeli authorities.

(on camera): This is the sixth station of the cross on the Via Della Rosa. No tourist to be found here at all. Just some kids playing marbles.

(voice-over): Shopkeepers in the Old City's winding passages spend more time playing games than tending to customers.

(on camera): I'm the first person here in a week?

NASSER BARAKAT, SHOPKEEPER: Yes, sir.

BURNS: Well, I have to buy something then.

BARAKAT: I hope so.

BURNS: Why so futurists here? One explanation is this U.S. State Department travel warning, which urges Americans to defer travel to Israel. And if they come, to avoid such locations as restaurants and cafes, shopping areas and malls. That doesn't leave many other places to visit.

(voice-over): Most visitors we run into come in defiance, like Jonathan Matkowski, a Jewish New Yorker.

JONATHAN MATKOWSKI, TOURIST: On September 11th, as a New Yorker, I remember listening to Bush say the way to win the war against terror is, you know, from inside as much as the front lines. By living our lives as ordinary -- as we ordinarily would. And that's what I'm going to do.

BURNS: Deborah Lynch is a pastor from Bellingham, Washington.

DEBORAH LYNCH, PASTOR: This is the time to come.

BURNS (on camera): So you're on a mission. You're not here as a tourist.

LYNCH: No, I'm not here as a tourist.

BURNS (voice-over): Back on the Mount of Olives, it's a lonely life for Nasser Mahmoud and his camel, Kojak.

MAHMOUD NASSER, CAMEL OWNER: Business one week, I don't make one penny.

BURNS: Nasser says all he can do is hope, helplessly, for himself and for Kojak, for peace to come.

Chris Burns, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Once, walls meant ghettos. Now, here, they mean something else.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's about living here in Israel and living with our neighbors, the Palestinians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Walled in by choice, when LIVE FROM JERUSALEM returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Absent a lasting peace deal here in the Middle East, there are those within the Israeli government also floating the idea already about building a wall, a wall that literally separates the West Bank from Israel proper, the Palestinians from the Israelis.

If you think that the idea is a bit crazy, you might want to stop in the Israeli town of Bat Hefer. This is a town in Israel, not a settlement. Residents there are already taking steps to keep the violence on the outside.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Twelve feet high, almost 2 miles in length, solid concrete. Some argue this is the solution for peace in the Middle East. On the Israeli side of the border here, the tiny community of Bat Hefer, population 5,000. Over there, the West Bank town of Tulkarem, just across open field and within easy eyesight of this neighborhood.

The Israeli government built this wall 5 years ago. They also put up two fences. The army is here 24 hours a day. There's a guard to check your ID at the front gate. In Bat Hefer, residents have barricaded themselves by choice.

"On a day-to-day basis," this woman says, "I don't see the fence or look at the wall. We live our lives." This is life inside a fortress, an armed neighborhood. Construction, prompted after random shootings from the other side.

(on camera): Since the intifada began 18 months ago, people living here say they feel less safe and less secure. So two months ago they added on to this wall, putting three more feet up top. That way they can cut down on direct fire from bullets on the other side.

(voice-over): No one has been killed here by sniper fire, but families tell us they feel safer -- safer, in a neighborhood where guards stand sentry outside a day care center. So then, why choose to live here? Residents say it's impossible to escape the threat of random violence, but it's cheaper here and less crowded than city life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not -- it wasn't my dream, of course. But this is the reality we live in Israel.

HEMMER: Doron Stern moved here about four years ago with his family of five. For him, the wall is about survival.

DORON STERN, BAT HEFER RESIDENT: It's not just about the wall. The wall is just a thing, just a fence. This is not just about the wall. It's about living here in Israel, and living with our neighbors, the Palestinians.

HEMMER: Some argue, without peace, separation is the answer, where street lights run parallel to spotlights. Will it be here forever? That depends on whom you ask. But for now, in the fortress known as Bat Hefer, security is defined by a concrete slab.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): Colin Powell is here in two days. Some say he has a miracle to work, but then again, the Middle East has seen a few of those in the past, fingers crossed.

I'm Bill Hemmer. See you again tomorrow LIVE FROM JERUSALEM.

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