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Jerusalem: Suicide Bombing Rocks Jerusalem Market; Colin Powell Postpones Meeting With Yasser Arafat

Aired April 12, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: There is a reason they call it terror. It is random. It is confusing. And today, yet again, it was deadly. A woman blew herself up in central Jerusalem earlier on Friday afternoon. Chunks of human flesh are not supposed to be lying around city streets, but, again, this is the Middle East and this is how far we are right now from the peace process.

I'm Bill Hemmer. We have a lot to cover in the next hour. It begins right now.

ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM: "Suicide Blast Targets Peace."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: By this point...

(EXPLOSION)

BELLINI: Grab the tripod.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: With cameras rolling, a race into the sights and sounds of chaos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's one woman in front of me who's hurt. She's bleeding.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was an explosion. We were the first ones to get there. We saw some bodies, some people with no arms, with no -- with no heads. I mean, blood all over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Now what?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I condemn the terrorists for this act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Now what?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He condemns in the strongest terms possible this morning's homicide attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Now what?

LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, "Suicide Blast Targets Peace." Now, CNN's Bill Hemmer.

HEMMER: Once again, welcome back to Jerusalem. Another day here in the region and absolutely another day of devastation. We saw it firsthand today along Jaffa Road, right about 4:15 earlier today. Colin Powell has waded knee deep right now into the thickness of the Middle East peace process. And at this point, it appears to be an extremely difficult and long walk out.

We've got a lot to cover tonight. First, the headlines right now from the region. The much anticipated meeting between Colin Powell did take place earlier today, that first meeting taking place with Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister. That meeting lasted for about four hours' time. But that was before yet another suicide attack here in Jerusalem.

It happened in a crowded market about 4:15 local time. Six are dead, plus the female suicide bomber. Dozens were injured, some say at least 65 injured from that attack today.

Also, the charges and the countercharges continue over what really happened in that Jenin refugee camp. Palestinians again today insist that it was a massacre, saying hundreds were killed there. Israel says no, that is not the case. Much more on all those stories straight ahead here as our coverage continues.

First up tonight though, the terror that hit west Jerusalem on a rather peaceful Friday afternoon, about two hours before the Sabbath was to begin, on a crowded marketplace. Dozens of shoppers there picking up their final food items before the day of rest here in Israel. All that quiet and peacefulness shattered, though, in a moment's notice. The woman, we are told, wandering toward the market was turned away by security guards. At that point, she picked her target at a nearby bus stop. John Vause now on the devastation on Jaffa Road.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In downtown Jerusalem, utter panic. Ambulance crews rushed the seriously wounded to the hospital, others are treated on the sidewalk, many left bloodied, stunned. Amid the chaos and confusion, one thing is certain: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's 100 percent a suicide bomber.

VAUSE: Moments before the blast, CNN's Jason Bellini reporting less than a block away.

BELLINI: By this point...

VAUSE: The suicide bomber, a young woman from the Jenin refugee camp, blew herself up in a doorway of a commuter bus. Earlier, police nearby had turned her away from the city's main market, a frequent target in the past. This blast was so powerful, it left storefronts mangled, blew out car windows and sent metal and glass flying in all directions. The street was crowded with shoppers just hours before the start of the Jewish Sabbath, also tragically familiar to so many.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

VAUSE: Overhead, a helicopter carrying Secretary of State Colin Powell flying over the scene twice on a trip to and from the border near Lebanon. A gruesome reminder of what's at stake as he searches for peace. Everywhere here, the walking tended the wounded, this woman helping an injured girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She signed to me and she said today is my 17th birthday, how could this happen? How could this happen? And I was crying with her and I just said, thank God you're alive.

VAUSE: But at least six others did not survive, seven including the bomber, all lives lost on another Friday afternoon in Jerusalem.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Now then, what are the implications for Colin Powell right now? His first full day in the country earlier today, a four- hour meeting with Ariel Sharon. Late tonight, we do know that Colin Powell will not meet tomorrow in Ramallah with Yasser Arafat. That meeting has been postponed. On the search for peace for the secretary of state, Andrea Koppel now reports from here in Jerusalem.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): News of the Jerusalem attack reached Secretary Powell only moments before his helicopter had lifted off for a tour of Israel's northern border. By the time he touched down, his peace mission was on the fast track to failure.

POWELL: I condemn the terrorists for this act. It illustrates the exceptionally dangerous situation that exists here and the need for all of us, everyone in the international community, to exert every effort we can to find a solution.

KOPPEL (on camera): The original purpose of Powell's visit to this army headquarters, only 12 kilometers from Israel's border with Lebanon, was intended to highlight U.S. concerns about prospects for a wider regional war.

(voice-over): As if to illustrate the point, Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon fired on Israeli soldiers, even as Powell was briefed on the volatile situation by Israeli generals.

The day had already gotten off to a bad start. Following a marathon meeting with Israel's prime minister, Powell walked out empty handed, Prime Minister Sharon defiant, refusing repeated U.S. demands to immediately withdraw Israeli troops from West Bank towns and cities.

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Israel is conducting a war against the Palestinian infrastructure of terrorism and it does hope to conclude this shortly.

KOPPEL: But with Palestinian and Arab anger over Israel's continued military occupation growing by the day and no end to this cycle of violence in sight, Powell's plan to pull both sides back from the brink hinges on cooperation.

POWELL: We do understand what terrorism is. As we have responded to terrorism, we know that Israel has a right to respond to terrorism. The question is, how do we get beyond just the response? What is the next step? How do we get past that?

KOPPEL: Within hours, Powell got an answer, but not the one he wanted. Another Palestinian suicide attack in the heart of Jerusalem had dealt another blow to Powell's mission, forcing the U.S. to put Powell's meeting with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat on hold.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Quickly after that bombing, the White House quick to respond condemning the attack in Jerusalem. And also calling it, instead of a suicide bombing, the White House right now refers to it as a homicide bombing. From the White House tonight, Kelly Wallace, more reaction from there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ignoring reporters' questions, President Bush heads off to the Camp David presidential retreat while his administration says it is now reassessing the scheduled meeting between Secretary of State Colin Powell and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Senior U.S. officials stress they are looking for action from Arafat.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president believes that Yasser Arafat needs to publicly come out and condemn today's attack, that this is terrorism, this is murder, and Yasser Arafat needs to renounce it and renounce it soon.

WALLACE: Complicating the decision, pressure from the Israelis, who say such a meeting would reward terror, since the Al Aqsa Martyr Brigades, linked to Arafat's Fatah organization, claimed responsibility for the bloodshed.

On the other side, pressure from Arab leaders and the Palestinians, who say Arafat deserves Powell's ear. Some analysts say there's more to lose by snubbing the Palestinian leader.

GEOFFREY KEMP, THE NIXON CENTER: It will appear that the secretary of state of the most powerful country the world has ever seen is cutting and running in the wake of terrorism. And that will send a terrible message.

WALLACE: The administration says Arafat has not done enough to crack down on terror. Now U.S. officials say the Israelis have given them document, documents the Israelis say they seized from Arafat's Ramallah headquarters and show Arafat's top aides financed attacks by Palestinian militants. The Israeli military has been showing some of those documents on its Web site.

U.S. officials say they are determining if the documents are authentic, but do say there is broad agreement within the administration that Arafat's top aides or Arafat himself were involved in the purchase of weapons that may have been used in terror attacks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): President Bush was in the middle of his daily national security council briefing when an aide handed him a note alerting him about the latest Jerusalem attack. The president then, through his spokesman, immediately condemned what the White House, Bill, as you said, is now calling a homicide bombing and said he would not be deterred from seeking peace.

But tonight, Bill, I can tell you U.S. officials acknowledging this bombing definitely making what was already going to be a complex mission for the secretary of state increasingly more difficult -- Bill.

HEMMER: Boy, indeed you are right there. Kelly, about the changing of the language, a homicide bombing, what's behind that at the White House?

WALLACE: Well, you know, we asked U.S. officials about that, asked them if they are responding in some way to criticism, lots of criticism that the administration has been too tough on Israel and not tough enough on the Palestinians and Arab states. U.S. officials say, no, it's not in response to criticism. They say they simply think this is the most accurate way to describe what is going on. They believe these are acts of murder against innocent civilians and not independent acts of suicide by these individual bombers -- Bill.

HEMMER: Kelly, there has been some criticism coming down from Capitol Hill against the White House for this meeting not to take place with Yasser Arafat. Again, it is still planned in two days' time, or a day and a half, local time here. To that criticism, the White House says what, Kelly?

WALLACE: Well, you know, Bill, you know this White House pretty well. The White House says it does not respond to this criticism, that the president and his top advisers will act in the best way they see fit. It was a couple of weeks ago when the president got a letter from about 52 senators who said that Vice President Cheney should not meet with Yasser Arafat. You will remember last month, he was considering a meeting with the Palestinian leader. There is pressure coming from Capitol Hill that the administration should not meet with Yasser Arafat, that he has not done enough. The word we're getting is this is really a decision for Secretary Powell. He's on the ground. He will be talking to both sides to determine if such a meeting should take place -- Bill.

HEMMER: You bring up an interesting question, Kelly. One more for you then. The president himself, how much involvement is the White House telling you that he has right now regarding this Powell mission?

WALLACE: Well, certainly he's been talking to Powell. We believe he's been on the phone with Powell every day. He's getting his briefings, of course, from Condoleezza Rice, his national security adviser, who I believe is with him at Camp David and will be briefing him throughout the weekend.

But we've been asking U.S. officials if the president is going to put forward a recommendation to Secretary Powell about whether or not this meeting should take place. And the message I'm getting is that the president believes Secretary Powell has good judgment, that he has great faith in his judgment, that he is the one on the ground, that obviously other advisers will be weighing in, but that he is the one on the ground, he will make that decision.

Bill, it certainly does give the president a little bit of distance, because you know he has -- the president has said he does not believe Yasser Arafat has earned his trust, that he has not done enough. But at the same time, this administration has said that Yasser Arafat is the leader of the Palestinian people, and Secretary Powell believes the person he needs to talk to in order to get a deal -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you much. Kelly Wallace there on the front lawn of the White House there in Washington, D.C.

Back in the region now, what are they saying in Ramallah tonight? Again, that is the location where Yasser Arafat, two weeks now and counting, he's been holed up inside that compound, what's left of it anyway. Want to check in now with Michael Holmes about this meeting that will take place, we expect, on Sunday, for more reaction from there tonight. Michael, good evening to you. It is late. Hello again.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill, our time. Yes, that's true, the meeting that should take place on Sunday, delayed 24 hours, we're told. However, there really is no certainty that it will take place in 24 hours. We're told by Palestinian sources that Colin Powell has booked his hotel room through to Wednesday and not literally, but that he'll be in the region until that long if necessary.

Now, this is what we're hearing from very senior Palestinian sources, that Colin Powell, of course, has condemned in the strongest possible terms what happened in Jerusalem today, and that he expects Yasser Arafat to do likewise. That's part of the reason for this 24- hour postponement of the planned meeting.

Now what we're being told is that if he's expecting Yasser Arafat to condemn the terrorist attack in Jerusalem and to other likewise incidents, he's going to be disappointed. We're told that senior Palestinian officials may well offer that condemnation, that rejection of the killing of civilians in that manner. However, we're also told that it's not likely to come from Yasser Arafat himself, which of course is what the Americans want to hear, and preferably in Arabic. This is going to further perhaps complicate Colin Powell's mission, whether he waits and demands that before he meets with Yasser Arafat remains to be seen. It's not clear that the demand that Yasser Arafat condemn these attacks is a pre-requisite for a meeting. But, certainly, our sources very high up in the Palestinian Authority are telling us that Yasser Arafat is not likely to make the condemnation personally. However, other senior officials may well do that.

Now, it was a busy day for Yasser Arafat, I should tell you. He had visitors today. The Egyptian foreign minister dropped by, and later reported that Yasser Arafat was fit and well and in very good spirits despite the lack of water, the lack of sanitary conditions, bathrooms that don't work and the like. You see him there being greeted by Palestinian officials and Yasser Arafat there. Also, Saeb Erakat was there a little earlier in the day too. He -- this is Ahmed Mahar, who is the foreign minister. He was there for well over an hour, and he came out and he also said that Yasser Arafat remained defiant in terms of wanting the world to condemn what has happened in the West Bank and the loss of Palestinian lives.

Now, I'll tell you, Bill, we spent the best part of a day in Ramallah yesterday afternoon when the curfew was lifted here, as it is roughly every three days for about three hours, and we tried to gauge from people in the street what they expected from Colin Powell's visit.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): On a day when the curfew in Ramallah was briefly lifted, the people ventured out to shop, and talk of the visit of Colin Powell.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God created for each human being, two ears to listen to both sides, two eyes to see both sides, and to be fair. Really. And it's about time. Enough is enough. Really.

HOLMES: Their city may be in tatters with soldiers still here, but there remains some hope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We expect that the peace process will start and the violence will stop and the incursions will end. And peace will prevail again. HOLMES: But plenty of doubt, too, that Colin Powell will achieve much.

(on camera): What do you want from Colin Powell? What do you hope for?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope a lot from Colin Powell. But I see nothing will change the situation here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want peace. Arabs want peace. But the Jewish want war. And Colin Powell support the terrorist of Sharon military action.

HOLMES (voice-over): In the heart of Ramallah, troops watching. An Israeli flag flying. A small demonstration, perhaps 20 people, mainly women. It ended with tear gas fired by nearby Israeli troops. Some saw the incident as a metaphor for Colin Powell's mission.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually I don't like his political movement because I feel that he and his administration give the Israeli government a cover to continue their military operation and war against us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They just pressure the Palestinian side and they just relax when it comes to Israel. So we don't expect too much.

HOLMES: Some told us they had faith in the Americans, faith they could influence Israel. That faith eroded as the tanks, far from withdrawing without delay from Ramallah, remained firmly in place.

(on camera): If you could speak with Colin Powell, what would you tell him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I want to talk to someone. I want to talk with someone that have feeling. But I think Colin Powell don't have feeling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even though, as an American I'm opposed to terrorist activity, me, my children and my husband are subjected to living in our houses, not getting to work. Only going out when they are allowing us. I feel like I'm in prison. And we have done nothing wrong.

HOLMES (voice-over): During one interview, a stun grenade. Palestinian civilians getting too close to the watching troops.

(EXPLOSION)

HOLMES: The woman barely flinches.

(on camera): What would you say to Colin Powell if you could speak with him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, to push the issue forward and stay in the area as much as he can.

HOLMES (voice-over): And then the curfew returned and the streets went quiet once more.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): So, Bill, some hope there on the streets of Ramallah, but I've got to tell you, the general feeling, low expectations. And let's remember, this was before today's suicide bombing in Jerusalem, the delay of the meeting with Yasser Arafat. And just repeating, not likely that Yasser Arafat is going to personally condemn that attack. And just again repeating also that the Palestinians telling us that they want the U.S. and the rest of the world to condemn the loss of Palestinian life -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right. Michael, thanks. Michael Holmes in Ramallah late tonight. Again, it will be another long weekend in that West Bank town. Michael, thanks to you.

In a moment also, back to Jenin in the West Bank. Ben Wedeman will check in with us. We'll have that for you from the West Bank a bit later here.

In a moment though, back to Jaffa Road and the reporters who became eyewitnesses today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BELLINI: Images don't tell the whole story. By this point...

(EXPLOSION)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: The Sabbath was shattered Friday afternoon. Back with that and more in a moment.

ANNOUNCER: We've seen it up close. Does terror work?

Also, a difficult task gets even harder. Is anyone up to the job?

LIVE FROM JERUSALEM is back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Everyone has a story. We know that. Here is my story now. Earlier today, just about 4:00, I was in a taxi on my way heading down Jaffa Road to our bureau here in Jerusalem like we have, my colleagues and I have, just about every day for two weeks running. The place today here in Jerusalem was beautiful. It was calm. It was somewhat peaceful. There was very little traffic at the time, just a few hours before the Sabbath was to begin.

And as we went down Jaffa Road, we could see the market off to our left-hand side. Dozens of shoppers inside there, working their way through the fruits and vegetables. Five minutes later, I was inside of our office when the explosion rang out. Minutes later, I was back on the scene, this time on foot, this time to see a scene of devastation.

The injured wheeled away on gurneys by the dozens in front of us. And what we saw there was truly a horrific site. A number of people walking away with chunks of human flesh dripping off their clothing. They were far too close to an explosion that killed six plus the suicide bomber, and injured about 65 others. Also near that scene was CNN's Jason Bellini. In fact, Jason was working on another story inside the actual marketplace. This is what his camera caught earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BELLINI: The images don't tell the whole story. By this point...

(EXPLOSION)

BELLINI: Grab the tripod. Grab the tripod! Grab the tripod! I'm here. Stand by. Stand by. Oh, my God. Igor (ph), Igor, it's Jason.

There's one woman in front of me who's hurt. She's bleeding. I'm trying to get a little bit closer to see what's going on. There was a loud explosion that happened about four minutes ago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Part of what the camera and Jason Bellini caught earlier today. Jason is with us live tonight here in Jerusalem. Good evening to you, and what a day it was.

BELLINI: What a day.

HEMMER: Yes, that marketplace is buffered by two ends, one on Jaffa Road, then it has an outlet at the other end as well. And there are a lot of different alleyways in between there. Where were you inside the marketplace?

BELLINI: I was pretty square in the middle when I heard the blast. And being in that position, I didn't have a choice of going one direction or the other. And to be honest, it wasn't completely clear where the sound of the blast was coming from because within those walls, within those market stalls, the sound resonated and people started moving in both directions. Everyone just wanted to get out of that confined space out on to the street.

Well, it turns out the street is where the explosion occurred. And I made my way in the direction of the blast. We went past barricades, and you saw that in the video. Barricades -- and I remember going through them when I entered the market because there were two very large guards standing there with very large guns. They weren't there as we were exiting. I mean, we had to squeeze through those barriers.

And as I was going out, someone was coming in my direction, a woman who -- and I think you may have seen her in the video as well -- she was badly, badly injured. And you can see the blood all over her face. She was screaming. Just a horrific, horrific scene.

HEMMER: Yes. We talked about this earlier tonight, and a couple of thoughts came to my mind. How quickly the police responded, how quickly the ambulances were there. And also we mentioned the word confusing, how disorienting it can be because essentially there are sirens everywhere and oftentimes you do not know, as you mentioned, which direction to go.

BELLINI: For several minutes, I waited before reporting -- reporting what the blast was because I just didn't exactly know what had happened there. We knew there was an explosion of some kind. We saw these injured people, but where it had come from, it was very unclear until I saw a bus with shattered windows, and then it was obvious what had occurred. I wasn't sure whether it happened on the bus itself or nearby. But it was obvious that was the point of detonation.

But your point is well taken. These people are scrambling in all different directions, some people trying to get away, some people actually coming forward to help the injured and to help take them away. I saw -- did you see some of those instances as well where civilians were there, helping out, using water to pour water on people's wounds, helping out in whatever way they could.

HEMMER: Neither of us have had this experience before in our lives prior to 4:15 this afternoon, Jerusalem time. It is searing, the images, still in my mind tonight. And I'm curious to know, is it the same way for you?

BELLINI: Absolutely. And I think it's the kind of experience I think that takes some time to settle in, of course. Right after the blast, I was on the phone with our colleagues in Atlanta, reporting what I was finding out, trying to get as many facts out there as I could. So, very much...

(CROSSTALK)

Well, very much in job mode, and also with the camera trying to capture whatever images we could. But an absolutely powerful, powerful experience.

HEMMER: Good to see you tonight, and good to see that you're safe, OK.

BELLINI: Thank you, Bill.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jason. Jason Bellini on the scene earlier today with his camera here in Jerusalem.

In a moment, our coverage will continue. Back in a moment.

ANNOUNCER: For an in-depth look at the crisis in the Middle East, log on to "Centuries of Conflict" at CNN.COM. Take an interactive look at the tumultuous history the region, learn who's who in the Israeli and Palestinian governments and much more. The AOL keyword: CNN. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Since March 5th, there have been 12 terror attacks in Israel, killing at least 85 people.

BILL HEMMER, CNN NEWS, JERUSALEM: Terror is random, and terror is confusing, and clearly that was the event today in (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

But now we want to take a look at this issue a bit closer, and ask the question, does terror work?

Bill Schneider now, on the record.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, SR. POLITICAL ANALYST, CNN NEWS: Is terrorism -- the intentional killing of unarmed civilians -- legitimate?

That's a horrifying question, with an obvious answer -- no, never. But in the Middle East, nothing is obvious.

SCHNEIDER: President Bush made his position on terrorism absolutely clear last September.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it and destroy it where it grows.

SCHNEIDER: The problem is that many Palestinian supporters believe terrorism works.

KING ABDULLAH II, JORDAN: There is the feeling, whether rightly or wrongly, in the Arab street that that is the only mechanism that the Palestinians have in retaliating.

SCHNEIDER: That was what former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu meant when he made this startling assertion.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Contrary to popular belief, the motivating force behind terror is neither desperation nor destitution. It is, in fact, hope.

SCHNEIDER: What Palestinians hope for is the end of Israel's occupation, and their own state. After nearly 35 years of occupation, many believe violence is the only way to get it.

Israel refuses to discuss any political agenda until terrorism is eliminated.

NETANYAHU: There can never be a political solution for terror. There can never be a political solution for terror for a simple reason. The grievance of terrorists can never be addressed through political concessions.

If you offer terrorists political concessions, you encourage them to engage in more terror. SCHNEIDER: The answer from the leadership of the Palestinian cause -- until Palestinians see a clear political future, terrorism can't be controlled. They have to be linked.

KING ABDULLAH II: And the root of the problem is that the Israeli government looks at this as a security problem. And it's never been a security problem. It's a political one.

SCHNEIDER: The United States now seems to take that position.

COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We recognize that we have to link security and a political process together so people can see not just a cease-fire, as important as that is, but something beyond a cease-fire -- a political settlement that will move us in the right direction to the creation of a Palestinian state.

SCHNEIDER: To Israelis, that's making concessions to terrorists.

Now listen to what President Bush recently said.

BUSH: Blowing yourself up does not help the Palestinian cause. To the contrary, suicide bombing missions could well blow up the best and only hope for a Palestinian state.

SCHNEIDER: Some might hear that message as, stop the violence and you may get your state.

Hard-line Palestinian radicals who are responsible for much of the terrorism don't just want their own state. They want to destroy the State of Israel.

That's why so many Israelis support their government's tough line.

Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.

HEMMER: And as Bill was pointing out, clearly Colin Powell right now looks at this situation knee-deep, essentially, being waded into this situation late last night.

Want to talk more about his mission, and more about Powell's tactics as a person, in a climate such as this.

Retired General Wesley Clark is our guest tonight. He is live in Little Rock, but knows Colin Powell all too well.

And, General, curious to know from your perspective, how familiar or unfamiliar is Colin Powell, given the environment here?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, (RET.) FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Well, I think Colin Powell is the kind of person that relates very quickly to people and to situations. He's an outstanding communicator. He's got a tremendous grasp of the issues.

Remember, he's worked these issues for years and years and years. He was the National Security Advisor. He had Condy Rice's position at the end of the Reagan administration.

And so he's very familiar with the people, the issues, and I think he's in an outstanding position to be able to do something, if anybody can.

HEMMER: Yeah. Well, on a personal level, how does he behave behind closed doors as a mediator, as a peacemaker of sorts?

CLARK: Well, he's got a variety of -- well, so to speak -- I mean, he can be, he can be funny. He can be warm. He can be distant. He can be hard. He can be brusque if he has to be.

But, he's got a tremendous aura about him that draws people in. And really, this may be the most important asset that Colin Powell has, is his enormous personal charisma.

Ultimately, these two parties have to want to make peace. And he's an ideal personality to help them want to do that.

HEMMER: Now, then, General, let's talk about another issue that's been talked about throughout the week here in the Middle East.

Do (ph) U.S. observers or U.S. interveners, or however you want to use the term here, to be working on the ground in the West Bank -- how do you view that? What is the U.S. role? And is it advisable at this time, given the climate?

CLARK: I'm really against it, having thought it through and having worked with observers in Bosnia and in Kosovo before the air campaign in 1999.

I think what we need to do is look at the model that was applied in Bosnia.

It's what really Colin Powell is saying, if the administration can move in this direction, and get Arab support to do so.

You've got to get the overall framework of the peace agreement agreed. From that framework, and from the interest that both parties have in reaching an agreement on that framework, you then draw out the details, including the cease-fire.

And once the authorizations are in place, the consent of both parties, then it makes sense to put people on the ground, operating with the consent of both parties.

If you do it the opposite way with peacekeepers on the ground right now, they won't be any more effective in stopping terror than the Israelis are -- much less so.

But they will be blamed and they will end up being manipulated by both sides as they struggle to gain political objectives.

So get the political issues out of the way first.

HEMMER: Yeah, 15 seconds, General. Do you see a day sometime either soon or in the distant future, when U.S. observers will be involved in places like the West Bank and Gaza?

CLARK: Only if we can persuade Yasser Arafat -- the Arabs can persuade him -- that he can't win with terror, and he wants peace, and that he can (UNINTELLIGIBLE) now.

Then there'll be a framework for peace, and in that framework it'll make sense to have some observers on the ground.

HEMMER: OK. Got it. Thank you, General.

Wesley Clark, live again in Little Rock. Always a pleasure, sir. Thank you very much tonight.

In a moment, Ben Wedeman checks in from Jenin. We'll have that story for you when our coverage continues -- LIVE FROM JERUSALEM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Want to get back to the West Bank now, specifically in the town of Bethlehem.

Still no give there at the Church of the Nativity. The Palestinian gunmen still holdup inside. Israeli troops still ringed around Manger Square on the outside.

The fighters there have been holdup for two weeks and counting. Monks are inside. Civilians, as well, inside.

Those forces outside say they will wait them out on the inside.

That famed church is built on the spot where tradition says Jesus was born. Israelis say the building will not be damaged, no matter how long that conflict lasts there in Bethlehem.

Meanwhile, in the northern section of the West Bank, in the town of Jenin, there have been conflicting reports throughout the week.

Strong allegations from the Palestinians, now, about what they say was a massacre that took place inside that refugee camp.

It has been very difficult for us to get independent verification on the ground, simply because the Israeli military will not allow our reporters into that camp.

Earlier today, though, Ben Wedeman and his crew tried yet again. They report now on the refugees who have now been abandoned, pushed out of Jenin. And they have a lot of stories to tell from inside.

Here's Ben.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN NEWS (voice-over): Hundreds of Jenin residents respond to Israeli orders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (IN ARABIC) WEDEMAN: They said everyone between 15 and 60 must go down to Haifa Street, says this man.

Scenes like these have been repeated throughout the West Bank. Men rounded up for questioning, as Israel continues its search for people it describes as terrorists.

Elsewhere, the streets of Jenin are deserted.

Hundreds who fled the nearby camp have found refuge in this crowded, chaotic building in the city of Jenin -- the old, women, the young, the very young -- all crammed together.

Many desperately seeking news of husbands, brothers and fathers.

Ten-year-old Mujahed Souz (ph) was separated from his mother and father during the fighting.

MUJAHED SOUZ: (IN ARABIC)

WEDEMAN: I've been for five days without my mother or father, or anyone, he says.

Eighty-year-old Nefa Bazour (ph) says soldiers forced him to strip and leave the camp, or he would be shot.

The Israeli government says Jenin is a city of suicide bombers.

UNIDENTIFIED ISRAELI MILITARY SPOKESMAN: We paid a high price with the lives of our soldiers in Jenin, because we tried to ferret the terrorists out of the civilians. But we understand that there are at least 100 Palestinian terrorists who have been killed.

WEDEMAN: The camp was the scene of fierce fighting, which claimed 23 Israeli soldiers.

Those who were caught in the fighting say they feel abandoned and ignored by the outside world.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the camps, we will die in the camps. And God will help us. God will help us.

WEDEMAN: Supplies of food and medicine are running low. The city water supply has been cut. Workers here say they only have enough for another day or two.

Many of the people here seem to be in shock -- silent, stunned, and listless.

From camp residents we heard dozens of stories of mass graves, of hundreds dead. But the Israeli army isn't allowing any of the media anywhere near the camp.

Without full access to the camp, there is no way to confirm those stories. The Israeli government calls them Palestinian lies. And at this point, it is unclear whether the full truth will ever come out. Ben Wedeman, CNN, inside Jenin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: The sun will be up here in the Middle East in about two hours time. Our colleagues will certainly try and get back inside that refugee camp when the sun comes up and the day begins here on Saturday, on the weekend in the Middle East.

In a moment, a guest will talk to us. She has quite a bit of experience about conflict resolution.

Should Colin Powell meet with Yasser Arafat? And if they do not meet, who loses ultimately?

We'll have that for you when we continue LIVE FROM JERUSALEM here in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: One of the headlines from the evening certainly is that Colin Powell meeting with Yasser Arafat.

Right now we have word that it'll take place Sunday morning in Ramallah.

But what happens between now and then is a wide-open issue, like so many things on the ground here in the Middle East.

Let's talk more about that meeting right now. Our guest from New York is Nancy Soderberg.

Back in the late 1990s, Nancy Soderberg worked at the U.N. as a U.S. rep for political affairs. And we say good evening to you back in New York City.

NANCY SODERBERG, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE TO THE U.N.: Good evening.

HEMMER: Tell us this. If Colin Powell -- can he afford not to meet with Yasser Arafat at this point?

SODERBERG: No, he's obviously going to do it, and whether there's a delay of a day or two is not really the question.

He's going to have to engage directly and try and negotiate a settlement here. But right now, he has nothing in his hip pocket.

What the United States needs to do is get off the sidelines and come up with a comprehensive plan, put it on the table, sell it, and show both sides that they will gain more from negotiations than by this vicious cycle of violence that they're engaged in at the moment.

HEMMER: Boy, they tried that again -- they tried that before in the summer of 2000 and it didn't work.

Look at where we are now, sitting here tonight.

Do you change that approach? Do you add to it? And if so, what are the changes?

SODERBERG: Well, you know, any negotiations is often referred to as a bicycle. You have to keep the momentum going or it falls over.

Well this bicycle has fallen over, crashed and burned. And you need to get a new one going, have a road towards a final settlement here that they can see it.

What the administration needs to do is end its step-by-step process. The incremental approach put forward by the Tenet plan and the Mitchell plan are really past their by-sell dates.

They are long -- they were perhaps relevant a year ago, but they're no longer going to work in this situation.

And the United States has pretty much sat on the sideline for the last year.

And the only way to break the cycle of violence right now is to put a comprehensive plan on the table, get the U.N. behind, get the key European and Arab leaders behind it.

And I think you're also going to have to put a presence on the ground in the region. The trust between the two parties is just not there anymore, and you're going to have to have some internationalization of the settlements as it moves forward.

Colin Powell has none of that in his back pocket, so it's not clear what he's going to be able to achieve.

HEMMER: What happens, though, if Yasser Arafat does not condemn the bombing that we saw take place here today, knowing the U.S. wants him to do that, not just for this event, but for a series of events in the near future.

He says, he will not do that until the other side condemns the killing of Palestinians in the West Bank.

How much more complicated did the events of today make this matter, Nancy?

SODERBERG: Well, I don't think, as horrific as it is, it's not surprising that the violence is going on, because there's been no alternative put forward.

I think the chances of Colin Powell achieving significant progress on this particular trip is close to zero.

He may get an incremental step here and there, but it will get him engaged in the process, and that engagement is going to have to continue for the months to come.

It's the only way to have progress. The only time you'll have progress in the Middle East is when the U.S. leads.

And this is the beginning, I hope, of the U.S. leadership. But Colin Powell is an enormously talented individual. And he can begin to engage in this, but ultimately, President Bush is going to have to do it.

And like it or not, they're going to have to pretty much pick up where President Clinton left off 18 months ago.

HEMMER: We shall all see very soon. Devastating day today.

Nancy, thanks. Appreciate your comments tonight.

Some people suggest that this is just the first (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for Colin Powell ...

SODERBERG: I think that's right.

HEMMER: ... to the region here.

SODERBERG: I think that's right.

HEMMER: Nancy Soderberg, live in New York. Thank you much. You got it. Have a good weekend.

We'll be here throughout the weekend, and we'll be back in a moment here with a final thought.

LIVE FROM JERUSALEM continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: The events of today certainly were shocking for Israelis, and we're hearing from Palestinians that their anger continues to grow literally by the hour.

There's a late report tonight in Jerusalem that the Israeli Supreme Court has ordered the military not to move a body in Jenin until a hearing is conducted on Sunday morning.

Apparently, that story will continue to grow throughout the weekend here.

Colin Powell is here. He is a very talented man. He will need to incorporate all of those talents to find some sort of success here in the Middle East.

We'll be here to watch it. Hope you are, too.

Thanks for watching tonight. I'm Bill Hemmer, once again. Have a good weekend and good night -- LIVE FROM JERUSALEM.

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