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Live From...
Jerusalem: Powell's Search for Peace
Aired April 13, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, HOST: We are live in Jerusalem once again this evening. We now know the meeting will take place in Ramallah tomorrow. The secretary of state and the Palestinian leader will sit down, but frankly, there is not a whole lot of hope and a number of doubters as to whether or not that meeting will have success in the next hour on our special report on this Saturday evening. It is early Sunday morning already here in the Middle East.
A full examination from our team of correspondents as we begin tonight, our coverage, once again, here in the Middle East.
ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM: POWELL'S SEARCH FOR PEACE. Tonight, the countdown is on. Secretary Powell, Chairman Arafat to meet after the Palestinians issued a statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Condemnation of all terrorist acts against Israeli and Palestinian civilians. A strong condemnation of yesterday's bombing in Jerusalem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: We'll look at the players.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arafat is the only Palestinian leader at this time who can actually still legitimize a deal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Colin Powell is the kind of person that relates very quickly to people in the situations. He's an outstanding communicator. He's got a tremendous grasp of the issues. Remember, he's worked these issues for years and years and years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The chances, the hurdles, the history.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER (voice-over): May 14, 1948, Israel declares its independence, but less than 24 hours later; the Jewish state is attacked by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan. (END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: And the violence that continues today.
LIVE FROM JERUSALEM: POWELL'S SEARCH FOR PEACE. Here now, Bill Hemmer.
HEMMER: And good evening once again. We are exactly eight hours away from that round table in Ramallah when the secretary of state will make that much anticipated visit with the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat. Over the next hour, a complete examination about what is expected, anticipated and for all the doubters out there, we will try and find out if Colin Powell may have a glimmer of success in that meeting on Sunday.
First, though, tonight, here in Jerusalem, a day after the peace was shattered once again when a suicide bomber blew herself up right along Jaffa Road. At the end of the Sabbath tonight, people came back out on the streets slowly. It was quiet today in Jerusalem and that was a very good thing. No bombings today, but yesterday, six dead, plus the bomber, a 20-year-old Palestinian woman. Sixty-five others injured. Jerusalem has struggled to maintain some sense of normalcy. And frankly, many times it is difficult to find that anywhere here.
Our team of correspondents have fanned out throughout the region. We will have complete coverage up here in the next 60 minutes. First though, the headlines tonight from here in the Middle East. And first up, once again, our top story, Secretary of State Colin Powell will meet with Yasser Arafat. The Israelis don't want to see it happened, however, it will take place. They'll meet at the compound in Ramallah. That meeting postponed by a day. It was originally set for earlier on Saturday. It was put back on track though; the meeting was, after the Palestinians issued a statement earlier today condemning terrorist attacks against Israelis and Palestinians. There's the statement. We'll talk a lot about that over the next hour as well, condemning yesterday's suicide attack in Jerusalem.
On another front, the controversy over what happened on the ground in Jenin. It continues again today. The Israeli Supreme Court issued an injunction blocking the burial of anyone killed there. Palestinians say it's the site of an Israeli massacre. Israel calls that propaganda. Our reporter is back on the scene near Jenin. Their report coming up here in a moment.
Our top story, the on again meeting with Colin Powell, his search for peace in the region will continue, again, when the sun comes up in several hours time. Andrea Koppel now on the mission for peace and the secretary of state.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From Yasser Arafat, a public statement in Arabic condemning all terrorist acts against civilians, including Friday's suicide bombing in Jerusalem "whether they are Israelis and Palestinians and whether this terrorism is sponsored by a state, group or person." For Secretary of State Colin Powell, the statement was just enough to end 24 hours of uncertainty and unrelenting U.S. pressure and put his trip to Ramallah back on track. But when the two men meet Sunday, Powell's aides say, he'll push the besieged Palestinian leader to put his words into action.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: The secretary will work with Chairman Arafat and the Palestinian leadership to show leadership and to help make these statements a reality.
KOPPEL: But Palestinians say the reality for them is that Israel's ongoing siege of West Bank towns and cities has made life unbearable. And they Arafat, in turn, will press Powell to publicly condemn the Israeli military offensive.
On Saturday, Powell underscored growing U.S. concern over the rapidly deteriorating situation in the Palestinian territories during meetings with relief and religious workers where he offered an additional $30 million in emergency U.S. aid.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Clearly, there are humanitarian needs in a region...
KOPPEL: In order to break the Israeli-Palestinian impact, senior U.S. officials tell CNN Powell plans to focus on indeed a standoff between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen holed up in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity. He'll start by urging Arafat to tell the men to surrender. Explained one official, "Powell believes if he settle that issue, other things will flow."
As an incentive, Powell will assure Arafat that in exchange for a Palestinian cease-fire, the U.S. will accelerate political negotiations with Israel to include the end of Israel settlements and guaranteed borders of a Palestinian state.
MARTIN INDYK, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: That would enable Powell to go to Mr. Sharon and say, "Well, all right, I've got Palestinians ready to sign up for this, now, let's talk about ending your operation and withdraw." That's the best case. I'm afraid that he won't be able to get that from Arafat.
KOPPEL (on-camera): But with powerful voices back in Washington and in the White House already eager to write off Yasser Arafat and blame the secretary of state for putting U.S. credibility on the line, Colin Powell can't afford to leave the region empty handed.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: From Jerusalem now to Ramallah in the West Bank, a town there just about 10 miles from our location. Tomorrow, Colin Powell will arrive at what is left of that compound. It's been bombed out and bullet-riddled now for about 15 days' time. Yasser Arafat has been confined inside since December. On the eve of that meeting now, here's Michael Holmes in Ramallah. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): Our sources in Ramallah tell us that there was enormous pressure on Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian leadership to get Chairman Arafat's name on that declaration condemning terrorism. That pressure didn't just come from the United States. We're told, it came from European nations and interestingly, also from two Arab nations that is Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Both putting in calls to Yasser Arafat to urge him to put his name to the document.
Now, in the last few hours here, we have reports from inside the compound, inside Yasser Arafat's own building, telling us that Israeli bulldozers have been moving around outside clearing obvious debris from the immediate area outside the building. They tell us they are saying that that is because of Colin Powell's visit and attempts being made to clean the area up somewhat. But they won't be able to clean up the buildings themselves around Yasser Arafat's office. Those buildings marked by fire, by tank shells and by heavy caliber machine gun.
There is a sense of optimism tonight among some Palestinian officials we've spoken to that Colin Powell will be able to achieve anything on this mission. They feel that there needs to be a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from the West Bank before much can be talked about in substance.
Now, we're also told that Palestinian officials are just very keen to get Colin Powell into the compound, into Yasser Arafat's building and into his own office simply to see the conditions under which Yasser Arafat and several hundred other people are currently living -- sanitary conditions, conditions regarding food and medical supplies. Whether Colin Powell will be able to walk out of that building with much of an advance in terms of a process towards a cease-fire is doubtful at the moment.
Michael Holmes, CNN, Ramallah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: We shall all know tomorrow when that meeting gets underway and perhaps afterwards, we will get a much better idea about what the two men talked about. And then, we will know whether or not the ball has been moved here in the Middle East.
From the White House now, there are some in Washington throwing a lot of cold water, frankly, on this trip. There are nay sayers there in D.C. saying that the secretary of state will not have much success here. They're also saying that the presidency and the political clout now on the line for President Bush. At the White House tonight, here's Kelly Wallace once again.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Exactly one week ago, a confident President Bush said the Israelis would adhere to his demand to halt their military offensive and withdraw from Palestinian areas without delay.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think they will heed the call.
WALLACE: But they have not. Neither have the Palestinians heeded Mr. Bush's call to take concrete steps to prevent Palestinian suicide bombers like the bloodshed Friday in Jerusalem. Calls to Arab leaders to put pressure on Yasser Arafat and stop incitement of terror on state-owned media have, it appears, also gone unheeded.
So nine days after demanding results in his Rose Garden speech, Mr. Bush doesn't have many results to tout other than this public statement by the Palestinian leader Saturday condemning terror. Critics say the president has put his personal prestige and American influence in the region on the line. White House aides say Mr. Bush is not worried.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president doesn't look over his shoulder. He doesn't look left. He doesn't look right. He doesn't worry on a day-by-day basis about what people are saying. His focus is on how to bring the parties together to achieve peace.
WALLACE: But some lawmakers think the president, who was reluctant to get deeply immersed in the Middle East, needs to get even more involved and consider new initiatives, such as convening an international conference to bring the parties together.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Because something drastic has to happen to get us off this dime that we're on now, this vortex that's just sucking everybody in and making, I think, the president look not as effectual as he -- as he can be.
WALLACE: For now, the administration focuses on Secretary Powell's mission. But even some of the president's biggest supporters say the chances of success are slime.
SEN. JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: People kept saying to the president, "You've got to engage. You've got to get involved in this." And I think reluctantly he said, "All right, I'll do my best." But I don't think they expect him to necessarily pull off a miracle.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: And the White House distanced itself just a little bit from tomorrow's meeting between Secretary Powell and Yasser Arafat in that U.S. officials offered little comment other than to say, President Bush has given Secretary Powell -- quote -- "maximum flexibility" for this mission. There is a lot riding on this mission now, a lot riding on this president, Bill, as he steps up his engagement but so far has little to show for it -- Bill.
HEMMER: And Kelly, we have talked now for a week about this phrase, "maximum flexibility." In hard-core terms, has the White House said at any level what they're willing to put in Colin Powell's pocket that he can take out and then give to Yasser Arafat as some sort of incentive in this?
WALLACE: Well, you know, two things -- a "maximum flexibility," those words important in that really Secretary Powell is the one driving this mission, that he is the one sitting in those meetings, that he is really not going there with any big agenda and any preplanned mission, that he is going to be in there, in those meetings, calling the shots, if you will. But as you heard reported really by Andrea as well, he is going there trying to impress on the Palestinian leader to agree to a cease-fire. The incentive really is that he will then go the Israelis and think that he has a commitment from the Israelis to expedite political discussion for a settlement, for a Palestinian state and a settlement of all those other final status issues.
Obviously important from the secretary today, announcements of more aide, trying to work together with the international community to get aide to the Palestinian people especially after that military offensive in those Palestinian areas and look again -- you heard Secretary Powell today urging restraint, look for some words coming from the secretary again tomorrow, again probably calling for more action on the Israelis to pull out of those Palestinian areas -- Bill.
HEMMER: Kelly, thank you. Kelly Wallace, Front Lawn of the White House, late this evening with us tonight. Kelly, thanks to you.
So then, what do the two sides, the two principals in this, look for in this meeting here in the Middle East? We'll talk about them now, first, the Israeli side, then the Palestinian side. Danny Ayalon is our guest tonight, chief foreign policy adviser to the Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
Good evening to you. We know and have known for some time that Israel does not want this meeting to take place. It's going to happen. What's the best hope on the Israeli side that could come out of it?
DANIEL AYALON, CHIEF FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER TO ARIEL SHARON: Well, unfortunately, we will not have any expectations from Arafat. He is a terrorist. He has adopted a strategy of terrorist and his conduct, he's a terror and you don't cut deals with terrorists, like you wouldn't cut a deal with Osama bin Laden or with the Taliban. However, we do hope that the mission of the Secretary Powell, whom we respect very much, will succeed and it may succeed if the Palestinian leadership would relinquish for good, the strategy of terror and the conduct of terror.
HEMMER: I know earlier today, you did not give much credence to the statement condemning the terrorist bombing here yesterday in Jerusalem. Is it from any perspective though, within the Israeli government, a good start?
AYALON: Well, you have to look, you know. Actions speak louder than words. And even the words of the condemnations, I would say, were very faint. And you also have to look at the manner. You know, when he calls -- when Arafat calls for a million shaheeds (ph), a million suiciders to explode in Jerusalem, he does this in his own voice very emphatically, very -- with a lot of accent to his people. And here, we saw just the facts, which were sent to media rooms around the world. This cannot be convincing.
HEMMER: Within the Israeli government though, is it not being considered right now, as long as the secretary of state and the United States still is going to go forward with the meeting with Yasser Arafat, is there thought given to the reality that at some point, the Israelis are going to have to deal with Yasser Arafat because he is the leader of the Palestinian side?
AYALON: Well, it's a dilemma because of his conduct and strategy and we have given him so many chances in the past and he failed them all. We have no allusions for the future. However, if there is Palestinian leadership who would change the strategy, who would come forward with dismantling the terror organizations, with collecting the illegal weapons, stopping the incitement and really stopping the orders to explode in our midst, then we can have a chance.
HEMMER: Ariel Sharon had a four-hour meeting yesterday with Colin Powell. After that, the secretary of state and your prime minister did not have much to say to reporters. Can you say to us tonight that they made progress and in which area?
AYALON: Well, Bill, this was a private meeting. I think it was a very good meeting. It was a meeting between friends and allies. We share the same interests, the same goals, with common values. And we see -- we have this common vision for the region and also for the conflict. This was discussed in much details and now, as I said, it has to remain to be seen what will the Palestinians do.
HEMMER: I want to move onto Jenin right now. As you know, there are public accusations, strong allegations against your military and the movement operation that carried it out. The Palestinians say this was nothing short of a massacre. You have not allowed reporters to get into the refugee camp for several days running right now. Publicly, this is a PR nightmare for your government, why then not open up the refugee camp and allow our folks and other news networks to get inside?
AYALON: There is one reason and one reason only. There are still hundreds of explosive charges thrown all over the place. Jenin was a center or terror, the toughest. Throughout this operation, defensive war, the fiercest battles were in Jenin. We lost 23 of our best men there. So it wasn't any contact with civilians, on the contrary, with diehard terrorists who were booby-trapping every corner, every alley, every door. This is what we have to face and this is what we're facing now.
HEMMER: Two questions, pointed questions -- are there mass graves going to be discovered by journalists there?
AYALON: Not at all.
HEMMER: How many people were killed on the Palestinian side?
AYALON: The numbers I have are around a 150 and these are basically terrorists. There may be some civilians, very few who were caught by a terrorist as human shields.
HEMMER: The Palestinians, as you know, say up to 500 lost their lives there. Are you saying that is not the case?
AYALON: This is not the case. They have been saying many things, not now. The propaganda and the fighting of the youths is, in a way, to stir up the Arab streets, to destabilize the region and this is again part of a strategy.
HEMMER: We're going to go to the Palestinian side here in a moment here, but I want to know when journalists will be allowed in that refugee camp? At this point, as we stand here at 3:30 in the morning, Sunday morning, when will they be allowed in?
AYALON: Well, as soon as possible. As I said, you know, it's a matter of neutralizing all the charges, all the explosive. And there are hundreds of charges there.
HEMMER: Two days, three days?
AYALON: I would say days, in a matter of days.
HEMMER: All right, Danny Ayalon, we much appreciate it if you'd let our crew in tomorrow, meaning Sunday.
AYALON: Thank you, sir.
HEMMER: Thank you, sir, for your time tonight.
From the United States now, Hasan Abdel Rahman is back with us once again. He's the Palestinian representative to the United States and we want to get the Palestinian perspective right now. Sir, good evening to you. Nice to have you with us...
HASAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE TO U.S.: Good evening.
HEMMER: ... on a Saturday evening back there in the U.S.
RAHMAN: Thank you.
HEMMER: What is Yasser Arafat willing to give Colin Powell in this meeting that will take place in about seven-and-a-half hours' time?
RAHMAN: Well, first, it depends on what Secretary Powell is bringing to Yasser Arafat. Remember, that it was a Security Council resolution adopted two weeks ago, unanimously by the United Nations, calling on Israel to halt its engagement and withdraw its troops from the Palestinian territories and lift the siege. Israel has not done so.
Therefore, if Secretary Powell is coming empty handed to us, what can we give him? Therefore, the...
HEMMER: Well, let's take a different tack on it then. What do the Palestinians want from the secretary of state?
RAHMAN: We want him to implement the resolution of the United Nations and insure that the demand of President Bush to the Israelis is respected and he will find, with the Palestinians, on the Palestinian side, a very important imperative side that want him to succeed in his mission and that is to proceed immediately to the implementation of the Tenet Plan and the Mitchell Plan and engage Israeli in political negotiations.
So we are very, very clear on what we want. And what is demanded from Israel is to respect the words of the President of the United States and the international resolutions.
What then...
HEMMER: What if Secretary -- what if Secretary Powell -- I'm sorry, there's a satellite delay there. I apologize for the interruption.
RAHMAN: Go ahead. Go ahead.
HEMMER: What if Secretary Powell goes there tomorrow and wants once again to get a continued condemnation of terrorist activity and suicide bombings, will you agree...
RAHMAN: He wants another statement, he can have another statement. That's no problem. The problem is not the statement. The problem is...
HEMMER: What if they wanted it in Arabic on television as opposed to a written statement that we saw today? Would you agree to that?
RAHMAN: Well, listen, Bill, I don't think this is a big problem. If they watched the television today, it would have been on television. So that's not the problem. The problem is you have an engagement underway today. As the secretary of the state is in Jerusalem, there, the Israeli Army is continuing to invade Palestinian cities and towns, continue to kill people, continue to impose a state of siege on the Palestinian people.
What Danny Ayalon said about Jenin is an outright lie. How can he say that there are booby traps in the refugee camp of Jenin when the people in the refugee camp are still there? This is absolute nonsense. Today, the Israeli Army wanted to carry the corpses of the Palestinians who were killed and bury them secretly in what they call an enemy cemetery. And fortunately, the Israeli Court of Justice put a restriction on the Israeli Army. They want time to cover the crimes that they have committed in the refugee camp. Democracies do not hide. If it...
HEMMER: All right.
RAHMAN: Yes?
HEMMER: We are about to all find that out in the coming hours possibly, for sure, in the coming days. We, the media, will be able to determine whether or not there were the allegations and whether or not...
RAHMAN: That's after the fact, Bill.
HEMMER: ... now to the Arafat meeting tomorrow. I -- no, no, no, the evidence will still be there.
RAHMAN: After the fact. Two way street.
HEMMER: There were mass graves. The bodies will not be in a grave...
RAHMAN: Two way...
HEMMER: ... based on the Supreme Court ruling here.
RAHMAN: Two weeks later.
HEMMER: I only have another 30 seconds left. I apologize for that, but here's my question, my final question -- is Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian leadership willing to help Colin Powell succeed?
RAHMAN: Yes, we will do our utmost, but Mr. Colin Powell cannot act just an adversary for Israel. He has to act as the Secretary of the United States. He has to act as the representative of President Bush and he has to act also forcefully with the Israelis. If he is bringing the message from Sharon, he is not going to succeed. But if he is coming with the implementation of what was asked from Israel by the United States and by the international community, I assure you, we will cooperate and we will do our utmost to make him succeed.
HEMMER: Thank you, sir. Hasan Abdel Rahman, Palestinian negotiator to the U.S., again live back in Washington, D.C. Thanks again. We'll talk, I'm sure, many times in the days and weeks to come.
In a moment here, our coverage will continue, LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, after a quick break.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, peacemaker or terrorist? Just who is Yasser Arafat? Later, what goes on behind closed doors? Negotiating 101. First, more fighting around the Church of the Nativity and more controversy over the battle of Jenin. LIVE FROM JERUSALEM will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: The West Bank covers about 2, 263 square miles, an area about the size of the U.S. state of Delaware. It has a population of more than two million people.
HEMMER: We picked up a bit more information about the Palestinian bomber yesterday in central Jerusalem. She was a woman, 20 years old, we now know. And the woman came from Jenin, inside that refugee camp; the Al Aqsa Martyr Brigade took responsibility for that attack.
A newly released videotape, on the tape, that woman says she choose to say with her body what Arab leaders have failed to communicate. Reading from a piece of paper, she added, "My body is a barrel of gun powder that burns the enemy." The woman set off that blast on Jaffa Road, a busy street, just about 4:00 in the afternoon. More than 60 bystanders were injured, six others were killed, plus the 20-year-old woman.
The incursions, meanwhile, in the West Bank continued once again on Saturday. In one town, there was a withdrawal, however, two others did see Israeli tanks rolling in. Also, there were allegations tonight from the Palestinians regarding the town of Nablus. We'll get to all that information right now as Israeli troops roll into more West Bank villages. They arrested 40 today.
Several Israeli tanks shelled the Palestinian government complex in Nablus, ripping large holes in the wall there.
Also, in Nablus, Palestinians rescued two people from a building, they say, was demolished by Israeli bulldozers. A relative of a survivor said the collapse of the building crushed eight other members of the family, including a pregnant woman. The Israeli military says it's unaware of the collapse there in Nablus.
Also, the standoff at one of Christianity's holiest sites, Christian leaders met on Saturday with Secretary Powell. This is -- Palestinians were killed, one Palestinian rather, killed in the compound of Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity. Palestinians say Israeli soldiers entered a hostile adjoining the church and fired several shots, hitting a civilian in the neck.
The Israeli Army said soldiers did not shoot at the church. Israeli forces have surrounded that church in Manger Square ever since the first of April when Palestinian gunmen sought refuge inside the Church of the Nativity.
As you well know by now from our interviews in our last segment here at LIVE TONIGHT, you know the town of Jenin continues to be a focal point for controversy. And frankly, reporters have been kept well away from inside that refugee camp. Some journalists though, in some areas, have gotten a glimpse. From a distance now, Sheila MacVicar near the camp earlier on Saturday.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): On the road to the Israeli checkpoint that leads to the occupied territories in the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli peace activists marched on Saturday. They are demanding an end to Israel's military incursions and demanding to know what happened in Jenin.
URI AZNERY, GOGH SHELOM: The offensive by the Israeli Army was terrible because all means were used to minimize not on the Israeli side, maximize not on the Palestinian side. MACVICAR: For nine days now, Jenin refugee camp has been all but inaccessible. The fighting there fierce. In that area, 22 Israeli soldiers dead and no one yet knows how many Palestinians.
(on-camera): The longer Jenin camp remains closed off, the more many people, especially Palestinians say they are convinced something terrible has happened there. People here are talking about massacres, about hundred of people killed. There is no way to confirm any of these stories, no way until international observers are let back into the camp.
(voice-over): One of the few journalists to have made it into the camp is Michel Scott, the French TV network, TF1. This is what he saw on Friday. In crowded alleys, evidence of heavy fighting. Israeli bulldozers leveling buildings in the center of town and very little evidence of human life until a young woman appeared in a doorway.
Endeera Harb (ph) does not know where her brother is. She has been trapped for nine days in her house with her mother and three small children.
"I didn't see anyone killed in front of my eyes, but in my sister's house across the alley, there are five people dead."
The bodies lie in two rooms. No one has been able to move them. It is not safe to try to take them out. The neighbors say they were not fighters.
Another woman called out. In a nearby courtyard, the body of her brother-in-law shot by an Israeli sniper, she says, six days ago. Her family has had to leave his body in the shed where he crawled to die.
"He went to get water for his children from the well," she says, "and he got shot. They did terrible things to us."
Families have sheltered together, unable to go outside, they say, for fear of Israeli snipers. People in the camp themselves do not know how many people have died.
"No one has accurate information," says this man, "but we hear at least 300 dead, maybe more."
MICHEL SCOTT, TF1 CORRESPONDENT: Actually, the bulldozers aren't actually -- they are really, you know, flattened some very wide areas in the center of the camp itself. So it's very difficult to know, of course, what's underneath there. Is there buried bodies or not? We were not in a position to see that.
MACVICAR: The Israeli military is now collecting bodies on a hill a few minutes away. They have refrigerator trucks waiting.
The Israelis say they are taking away the dead from the camp they still control to prevent the Palestinians staging evidence of a massacre. MOSHE FOGEL, IDF SPOKESMAN: Many of the bodies are still being held by the Palestinians themselves in a propaganda ploy, simply that when we leave the area, they'll be thrown out in the street or displayed to create the wrong impression that they were massacred.
MACVICAR: Palestinians charge the Israelis are trying to cover up evidence of what happened in Jenin while the Israel military now acknowledges at least 100 people died here. They say, all were fighters, but so many people have fled their homes in the camp and so many men may be in Israeli detentions. It will be very difficult to determine precisely what happened, who was killed and why.
Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Shalom Checkpoint, Israel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: In a moment, when we continue here, who is Yasser Arafat, a world leader for decades and a man of contradiction, some say? A look at him, the man and his life in a moment, when our coverage continues.
ANNOUNCER: The Jenin refugee camp was established in 1953 and has a population of around 15,000 people. While some residents work around Jenin, many depend on finding work inside Israel Proper.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Soon Israel will turn 54 years old and since the very beginning of this country, there has been bloodshed. Many say it has never stopped and again, continues today. Gary Tuchman now with a look back at the history and the turmoil for this region.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): May 14, 1948, Israel declares its independence. A new nation celebrates, but less than 24 hours later; the Jewish is attacked by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan. The message to Israel and the world was "We don't accept the United Nations partition dividing British controlled Palestine into Arab and Jewish nations."
PROFESSOR KENNETH STEIN, EMORY UNIVERSITY: The Arab world was not pleased by a Jewish state in the middle of the Muslim heartland. It didn't believe that the Zionists had the right to be there. They believed that they were the minority.
TUCHMAN: Zionists, people committed to establishing a Jewish state as well as Jewish refugees had been moving to Palestine in large numbers since the 19th century.
STEIN: Most of the land, which was in their possession, when partition was suggested, was the most comfortable, the best (UNINTELLIGIBLE) land, the land that could grow the best crops.
TUCHMAN: The U.N. said it divided the land based on the demographics. So effectively, the minority Jews got much of it for the land. The Palestinian Arabs, who are already angry over the British oversight, thought the partition was unfair.
The war lasted 15 months. Israel overwhelmed the numerically superior Arab forces, who were intent on Israel's destruction. The Jewish nations ended up with more land than what was planned under the partition, including half of Jerusalem, which under the partition, was supposed to be an international city.
Palestinian refugees fled. Some of them forced out, others encouraged to leave by Arab leaders as warfare ravaged the holy land.
(on-camera): Armistice agreements were signed with the Arab nations, but the vanquished countries did not call for peace; instead, more fighting and wars were just around the corner as Egypt and Jordan took control of most of the land that supposed to be the independent Palestine.
Gary Tuchman, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Now, a closer look at the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat. He won a Nobel Prize for peace. He is revered by some and despised by others. Tonight, Garrick Utley on what appears to be to some a contradiction of the Palestinian leader.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For three decades, he's been a world figure, loved by his supporters, hated by his enemies. But who is Yasser Arafat? Is he the smiling man of peace who signed that historic agreement in 1993 and shook hands with Israel's leaders or, has he always been a man of violence to attain his goals? And why does Secretary of State Powell want to deal with him?
SHIBLEY TELHAMI, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: Arafat is the only Palestinian leader at this time who can actually still legitimize a deal. If you don't deal with Arafat, with whom do you deal? He is the elected President of the Palestinian Authority.
DAVID HARRIS, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN JEWISH COMMUNITY: From the outset, Yasser Arafat was really seen as the embodiment of the Palestinian terrorist movement for American Jews and I might say, for most Americans.
GARRICK: And what Americans think of Yasser Arafat has fluctuated with events? Twenty years ago, 62 percent of those surveyed had a negative impression of him. The contradictions in the man have been evident since his first dramatic appearance at the United Nations when he said he had come with an olive branch in one hand and the gun of a revolutionary in the other. What were people to think?
As young Palestinians throwing stones faced off against Israeli soldiers and tanks during the first intifada of the late 1980s, sympathy for the Palestinian plight grew outside the Middle East, and the Nobel Peace Prize presented to Arafat and Israeli leaders for their agreement to end their conflict, did change attitudes towards the Palestinian leader. For the first time, the number of Americans with an unfavorable view of Arafat sank below 50 percent.
But then, it all went wrong. Opportunities for peace were missed. Violence spiraled upward. Palestinians and Israelis plunged deeper into their mutual hatred. And much of the improvement Arafat had won vanished as the Palestinian suicide bombings escalated.
In the most recent survey, 73 percent of Americans had an unfavorable view of Yasser Arafat, including President Bush.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The situation in which he finds himself today is largely of his own making. He's missed his opportunities, and thereby betrayed the hopes of the people he's supposed to lead.
UTLEY: And yet, Yasser Arafat will most likely emerge from his ordeal more popular than ever among his people.
TELHAMI: If you watch Arab TV today, you'll find callers calling in and saluting Arafat for his resistance, calling him a symbol of the struggle. That's different from the way things were only a year ago.
UTLEY: In the end, Yasser Arafat may be seen as a hero to his supporters, or a mortal threat to his enemies. He is also a survivor, who once again has lived to fight, or negotiate, another day.
Garrick Utley, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: And that takes us to the meeting tomorrow in Ramallah. Colin Powell will be there, a meeting with Yasser Arafat. In a moment here, we're going to go to Little Rock, Arkansas. General Wesley Clark is our guest tonight. Once again, General Clark here to tell us what Colin Powell has to bring and more insight on the visit tomorrow in Ramallah.
See you in a bit, General.
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ANNOUNCER: Yasser Arafat was born on August 24, 1929. In 1971, he became the commander-in-chief of the Palestinian Revolutionary Forces. And 23 years later, he won the Nobel Peace Prize with Israeli leaders, Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres.
HEMMER: The United States has wanted the military incursions on behalf of Israel to end in the West Bank. They have not. Israel did not want Colin Powell to sit down with Yasser Arafat tomorrow. He will. Let's talk about that now. More insight from General Wesley Clark, who's live again with us tonight from Little Rock, Arkansas.
General, great to have you back with us. Tell us this -- what is that Colin Powell is willing to go inside there, into that compound and what is willing to give to the Palestinian leader? What's at work here?
RET. GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think he's got to go in there and continue the dialog because what he really must do is he must bring Saudi Arabia and Egypt very strongly on board, to put pressure on Yasser Arafat. They've encouraged him to see Yasser Arafat. He really needs to do that.
Now, what he brings to Yasser Arafat is he brings information and he brings perspective and he brings pressure. Once he goes in there and does that meeting, then there's no more of Yasser Arafat saying no will see him. What he gives to Yasser Arafat is more visibility and he brings the international media in. So that's a big advantage to Yasser Arafat, but it's the necessary step in the process for him to see Yasser Arafat at this point.
HEMMER: What's the best hope for tomorrow, General? Or is tomorrow just the first of many, many meetings to come?
CLARK: Well, I think it should be that it's the first of many meetings and it's really better if there's no specific hope for tomorrow. If I were to have given him advice, I would have -- the issue about the Church of the Nativity at Bethlehem and maybe getting a surrender there, sure, that's symbolic. It's peripheral, but it could help. But it's better not to have expectations for anything other than dialogue when going in there.
What I hope will happen is that we'll be able to agree on a framework for peace with Egypt and Saudi Arabia and then, impose that through logic and persuasion -- impose that framework on both sides without them having to have face-to-face discussions at this point. And Colin Powell can move it back and forth and begin to resolves things.
And whether the public knows much about this or not really isn't relevant. We understand the Israeli position. They maintain the fighting has to stop. But if you look at the long record of negotiations, the negotiations often continue while there's fighting. And what really is going to bring this fighting to a stop by both sides is agreement on the political framework and indeed a comprehensive agreement.
HEMMER: All right. I want to go back to your first answer, General. You raised a very interesting prospect there. The question is this -- can Yasser Arafat and the Palestinians afford not to meet with Colin Powell at this point?
CLARK: No, they can't. I don't believe, Bill, because this is what the Arab states have been requesting and Yasser Arafat has to do -- to some extent, he has to do what Saudi Arabia and Egypt and other Arab leaders want him to do. They are the ones that are providing him support.
But having met with Colin Powell, he certainly doesn't have to agree with anything. One of the things that General Powell has to see is is Yasser Arafat winning in his own mind or is he trying to put on a brave face because if Yasser Arafat believes he's winning and he believes more resistance and more sacrifice and more condemnations and even more suicide bombings will bring him closer to his political objective, then this peace process is not going to go anywhere.
HEMMER: Interesting thoughts. Thank you, General, always appreciate it. Wesley Clark, retired general in Little Rock, Arkansas. We'll speak again, sir.
In a moment, a specialist at negotiating, does he have any answers right now in the Middle East? William Ury is our guest after a break here. Back in a moment.
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HEMMER: Negotiations clearly are an integral part of all sides of the Middle East crisis. It's been that way for decades, frankly. Let's talk to a man right now, who knows all too well the power of negotiation. William Ury of Harvard University, an expert on helping groups get past their animosity so they can work toward reaching a common goal. He's also the author of "Getting To Yes: Negotiating Agreements Without Giving In." And we shall see how easy or difficult that is here.
Sir, good to see you live in Denver tonight. I want to know this -- you're a specialist at this, how would you negotiate a cease-fire at this point?
WILLIAM URY, AUTHOR, "GETTING TO YES": Well, the first thing to realize, you've got to give Colin Powell a little bit of a break here. Peace, actually paradoxically, is harder than war. I mean this kind of negotiation is going to be very difficult, very frustrating, take a lot time, take a lot of meetings and the best result, I think, we can anticipate for tomorrow is the beginning of a process. And a process that addresses not only the cease-fire but also the political elements that could actually make a permanent cease-fire work because as we've seen, just going for a cease-fire alone will not end the violence. You really have to address the conflict itself.
HEMMER: You know, we're -- OK, so then, tomorrow in Ramallah, let's say the meeting lasts an hour or two hours or three hours, how ever long it goes, after that, the two come out and say what?
URY: They can say that they've begun a process, a process in which there might be some symbolic moves like relieving the siege around the Church of the Nativity. But essentially, they've begun a process in which there's going to be future meetings. There might even be a summit meeting. There'll be a process of shuttle diplomacy, but something constructive that can actually give people some hope that you can move forward here.
I mean essentially they have to address the ending of violence. They have to address the -- you know, the beginnings of an independent Palestinian state, the economic aide that's going to be necessary and the political support that's going to be necessary to make that possible and above all, what is going to make a cease-fire work here?
I mean the United States has been wrestling this for a long time. But I think in the end, and this is something we've been -- we've been wrestling with and we haven't really wanted to face, is in the end, I think, it's clear that neither side, that both sides, cannot end the violence by themselves. It's going to take a third side and in this, it's probably going to be the United States under some kind of international auspice like the U.N. with support from the Arab League and the Europeans and Russia, but essentially, American military forces on the ground monitoring and observing a cease-fire. Now, that's very hard for us to take, but I think ultimately that's where we're headed.
HEMMER: Some people are saying 20 years ago, in Beirut, it turned to be an absolute disaster. And clearly, it was for about 250 U.S. Marines. If that's the request on behalf of the Palestinians, the U.S. response at this point is what?
URY: The U.S. response, I think, is very uncertain at this point. I think that we're worried about them, you know, the Americans who might be killed, but I honestly believe that this would be welcomed by the Palestinians.
The difference with Beirut is that it has to be supported and accepted by both sides, which is wasn't in Beirut and essentially, I think it would welcomed by the Palestinian people as a -- this is something that they want, this is something that we'll give them, the security that they need.
And the Americans are really the only force that the Israelis would trust. And the Israelis, of course, are opposed to this, but I think, what we've seen in the last year is a painful learning process by both sides that each can be very successful at making the other side lose, but neither can get what they most need. The Israelis can't get security. And the Palestinians can't get their state without sitting down together at the negotiating table with the help of a third side to contain the conflict on the ground and create the conditions for a political resolution.
HEMMER: Let's take it a step further now. A condemnation came out today in Arabic, a written statement by the Palestinian leadership, Yasser Arafat included, condemning the suicide bombing yesterday in Jerusalem and all other recent attacks of violence on civilians on both sides, Israelis and also Palestinians. If that's the case and the U.S. wanted that and Yasser Arafat essentially gave it to them, what more is he wiling to give right now?
URY: Well, some tangible steps to really back that up. I mean when you actually seen some cessation in the reduction in actual violence, I think that's what the Israelis are looking for. They're looking for action, but I think that's what the world is looking for and in return, the Israelis have to take reciprocal actions. They have to pull back.
But I think what we've learned is that cease-fires are easily agreed to and very easily broken. And in the end, it's going to take an international force in there to monitor a cease-fire accepted by both sides.
HEMMER: As you said at the outset, war is easy at this point, peace is tough.
URY: Peace is the hard thing.
HEMMER: Thank you, sir. William Ury from Denver. You're right. Thank you, sir...
URY: You're very welcome.
HEMMER: ... live in Denver with us tonight.
URY: My pleasure.
HEMMER: All right, sir, thank you.
In a moment, a final thought. We'll be back. Again, LIVE FROM JERUSALEM when our coverage concludes here.
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ANNOUNCER: For an in-depth look at the crisis in the Middle East, log onto "Centuries of Conflict" at CNN.com. Take an interactive look at the tumultuous history of the region; learn who's who in the Israeli and Palestinian governments and much more. The AOL keyword: CNN.
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HEMMER: Straight out? Jerusalem was quiet yet again on Saturday. It was a nice thing to see here around town, but certainly, many parts of the West Bank are far from it. Tomorrow, Colin Powell will go there. He'll go to Ramallah. Seven hours away now from that meeting with the Palestinian leader and the world certainly is watching and we are too.
I'm Bill Hemmer, once again, live in Jerusalem. Another report coming up in 60 minutes' time. To you, I say, have a good evening and we'll see you again in one hour here.
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