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Jerusalem: Powell to Meet Arafat Tomorrow; Growing Defiance on Israeli Streets; Can Palestinians Rebuild Their Infrastructure?
Aired April 13, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, HOST: If you've been with us here live on CNN for the past hour, a fascinating look back at Middle East history, through the eyes and the ears of the major players in this region. You saw it live on LARRY KING.
In present day now, we do know that meeting in Ramallah will start in about six hours' time.
Nobody said peace would be easy in the Middle East, and certainly no one is under the illusion that it might be now. We'll examine Colin Powell's mission when our coverage begins right now.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Jerusalem, Powell's search for peace. The on again, off again meeting between U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is on again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Secretary Powell wants to meet with this terrorist, all right, we think it's a tragic mistake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) meeting with the President Arafat to listen to the Palestinian point of view.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The meeting is on, scheduled just hours from now. But does it have any real chance to bring peace?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't give a damn about what my mother thinks, I won't give a damn about what America thinks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: And growing defiance on the streets of Israel. Will it mean Sharon will take a harder stance?
Plus, we'll take a look at this small land, a peace of land the size of the state of New Hampshire, with the population eight times as large, surviving so much violence.
LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, Powell's search for peace. Here now, Bill Hemmer.
HEMMER: Once again, good evening, and welcome back to Jerusalem. That meeting will take place in six hours' time. The world will be watching; and certainly a lot of people around the region think that Colin Powell will need a flat-out miracle. Peace will not be easy, we do know that. As of tonight, the military incursions have continued. However, for a day, anyway, the suicide bombings did not here in Jerusalem.
Let's start tonight with the headlines again. First up tonight, that meeting that will begin. Colin Powell, the secretary of state, will head off to Ramallah several hours from now. That meeting with the Palestinian leader announced after Arafat released a statement condemning terrorist activities, including that suicide bombing in Jerusalem that took place on Friday. The statement issued in Arabic, translated, it says in part now, I'm quoting: "President Arafat and the Palestinian leadership condemn all kinds of terrorist activity, coming from the deep principle against using violence and terrorism against civilians as a means to achieve political gains," end quote.
Some of the heaviest fighting in the West Bank has taken place in the refugee camp of Jenin. Questions continue about the death toll there. Israel says 100 to 200 have died; Palestinians say it's much higher. They put the number at 500. A look at that momentarily here as well.
The standoff between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen continue in Bethlehem, Church of the Nativity there. A Palestinian man died in a hostile next to the church on Saturday. Israel Radio says it looked like he was taking up a position to fire on Israeli soldiers when fire was opened up on him. That man, again, a Palestinian killed earlier today in Bethlehem.
Back to Jerusalem tonight. It's now a day later after absolute terror went through the central part of Jerusalem. A suicide bomber, heading right along Jaffa Road, six dead, plus the bomber, a 20-year- old Palestinian woman. Sixty-five others at a minimum were injured. The scene earlier tonight, though, on the streets of Jerusalem, the sabbath was broken when the sun went down, and as we have seen so many times, the Israelis trickle out back outside of their homes -- not at great numbers at this point, but again, we saw cafes start to fill up, as the Israelis again came out after the sabbath concluded.
That suicide attack yesterday, as I mentioned, six dead, plus the bomber, on Jaffa Road on Friday afternoon.
Back to Colin Powell's mission and search for peace right now. It won't be easy. We have said that many times. And there is not a whole lot of hope that Powell may make progress inside that besieged compound of Yasser Arafat. In Ramallah now, only 10 miles away from our location, the meeting will take place, and for more tonight on the mission, here's Andrea Koppel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From Yasser Arafat, a public statement in Arabic, condemning all terrorist acts against civilians, including Friday's suicide bombing in Jerusalem, whether they are Israelis or Palestinians and whether this terrorism is sponsored by a state, group or person.
For Secretary of State Colin Powell, the statement was just enough to end 24 hours of uncertainty and unrelenting U.S. pressure and put his trip to Ramallah back on track. But when the two men meet Sunday, Powell's aides say he'll push the besieged Palestinian leader to put his words into action.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: The Secretary will work with Chairman Arafat and the Palestinian leadership to show leadership and to make these statements a reality.
KOPPEL: But Palestinians say the reality for them is that Israel's ongoing siege of West Bank towns and cities has made life unbearable. And they say Arafat in turn will press Powell to publicly condemn the Israeli military offensive.
On Saturday, Powell underscored growing U.S. concern over the rapidly deteriorating situation in the Palestinian territories during meetings with relief workers and religious leaders, where he offered an additional $30 million in emergency U.S. aid.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Clearly there are humanitarian needs in a region (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
KOPPEL: In order to break the Israel-Palestinian impact, senior U.S. officials tell CNN Powell plans to focus on ending the standoff between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen holed up in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity. He'll start by urging Arafat to tell the men to surrender. Explained one official, "Powell believes if he can settle that issue, other things will flow."
As an incentive, Powell will assure Arafat that in exchange for a Palestinian cease-fire, the U.S. will accelerate political negotiations with Israel to include the end of Israeli settlements and guaranteed borders of the Palestinian state.
MARTIN INDYK, FMR. U.S. AMB. TO ISRAEL: That would enable Powell to go Mr. Sharon and say, "All right, I've got Palestinians ready to sign up to this. Now let's talk about ending your operation and withdrawal."
But that's the best case. I'm afraid that he won't be able to get there from Arafat.
KOPPEL (on camera): But with powerful voices back in Washington and in the White House already eager to write off Yasser Arafat and blame the Secretary of State for putting U.S. credibility on the line, Colin Powell can't afford to leave the region empty-handed.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE) HEMMER: All right. Let's get to Ramallah right now. That will be the location where the two men will sit down, as we mentioned before, less than six hours away from that meeting. There was some sense of renewed optimism from some corners in the Middle east after that statement denouncing terrorism was released by the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat. To Ramallah tonight and Michael Holmes, who is there awaiting that meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Our sources in Ramallah tell us there was enormous pressure on Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian leadership to get Chairman Arafat's name on that declaration condemning terrorism. That pressure didn't just come from the United States, we're told. It came from European nations and interestingly, also from two Arab nations, that is Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both putting in calls to Yasser Arafat to urge him to put his name to the document.
Now in the last few hours here, we have reports from inside the compound, inside Yasser Arafat's own building, telling us that Israeli bulldozers have been around outside, clearing obvious debris from the immediate area outside the building. They tell us they are saying that is because of Colin Powell's visit and attempts being made to clean the area up somewhat, but they won't be able to clean up the buildings themselves around Yasser Arafat's office. Those buildings marked by fire, by tank shells, and by heavy caliber machine gun.
There is a sense of optimism tonight among some Palestinian officials we've spoken to that Colin Powell will be able to achieve anything on this mission. They feel that there needs to be a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from the West Bank before much can be talked about in substance.
Now we're also told that Palestinian officials are just very keen to get Colin Powell into the compound, into Yasser Arafat's building, and into his own office, simply to see the conditions under which Yasser Arafat and several hundred other people are currently living. Sanitary conditions, conditions regarding food and medical supplies, whether Colin Powell will be able to walk out of that building with much of an advance in terms of a process towards a cease-fire is doubtful at the moment.
Michael Holmes, CNN, Ramallah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Also in Ramallah, there were reports on Saturday the Palestinian Health Ministry was targeted by Israeli troops. The reports that came out of the region indicate that witnesses say Israeli soldiers entered and searched the home of the health minister, Hassan Asford (ph). These pictures on file, taken from last year. And then escorted him away -- that is what we've heard, anyway. Israeli military sources say they went to the wrong house, though, and had no intention of arresting the man. Witnesses also say Israeli troops blew down the doors of the Department of Health Ministry and searched that building as well.
A day later, we know now a lot more detail about the suicide bomber, a Palestinian woman who blew herself up along Jaffa Road about two hours before sundown, late on Friday afternoon. We now know, according to the Al Aqsa Martyr Brigade, she was 20 years old, as they released this videotape of the bomber -- 20 years old, calling herself a martyr, saying her body was a barrel of gunpowder. Her suicide blast killed six yesterday, and last month another female suicide bomber blew herself up, the second of three Palestinian women to carry out such attacks this year, going back to the month of January.
As Colin Powell again begins his diplomatic mission and his foray into Ramallah, back in Washington there are some critics who say prestige of the president and the White House right now at stake and on the line firmly. From the White House tonight, here's Kelly Wallace on that front.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The White House distanced itself just a little bit from tomorrow's meeting between Secretary Powell and Yasser Arafat in that U.S. officials offered little comment, other than to say President Bush has given Secretary Powell "maximum flexibility for his mission." There is a lot riding on this mission and a lot riding on this president, as he steps up his engagement. But so far, has very little to show for it.
(voice-over): Exactly one week ago, a confident President Bush said the Israelis would adhere to his demand to halt their military offensive and withdraw from Palestinian areas without delay.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think they will heed the call.
WALLACE: But they have not. Neither have the Palestinians heeded Mr. Bush's call to take concrete steps to prevent Palestinian suicide bombings, like the bloodshed Friday in Jerusalem. Calls to Arab leaders to put pressure on Yasser Arafat and stop incitement of terror on state-owned media have, it appears, also gone unheeded.
So nine days after demanding results in this Rose Garden speech, Mr. Bush doesn't have many results to tout, other than his public statement by the Palestinian leader Saturday, condemning terror. Critics say the president has put his personal prestige and American influence in the region on the line. White House aides say Mr. Bush is not worried.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president doesn't look over his shoulder. He doesn't look left. He doesn't look right. He doesn't worry on a day-by-day basis about what people are saying. His focus is on how to bring the parties together to achieve peace.
WALLACE: But some lawmakers think the president, who was reluctant to get deeply immersed in the Middle East, needs to get even more involved and consider new initiatives, such as convening an international conference to bring the parties together.
SEN JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Because something drastic has to happen to get us off this dime that we're on now, this vortex that's just sucking everybody in and making, I think, the president look not as effectual as he can be.
WALLACE: For now, the administration's focus is on Secretary Powell's mission, but even some of the president's biggest supporters say the chances of success are slim.
SEN JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: People kept saying to the president, "You've got to engage. You've got to get involved in this. And I think reluctantly he said 'all right, I'll do my best, but I don't think they expect him to necessarily pull off a miracle.'"
WALLACE: A miracle no, but most Middle East observers believe the United States is the only country which can pull the two sides back from the brink.
And so as Secretary Powell prepares to deliver a blunt message to Yasser Arafat, U.S. officials are also trying to figure out their next steps, knowing that stepping away from the Middle East now is no longer an option.
Kelly Wallace, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: So then if Secretary Powell has maximum flexibility, what is Yasser Arafat willing to give Colin Powell upon this visit? To Washington, we go tonight. My guest is Hussein Ibish. He's a member of the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. Again, he's live in D.C. Good to have you on tonight. I can hear you, but I cannot see you.
HUSSEIN IBISH, AMERICAN ARAB ANTI-DISCRIMINATION CMTE.: Thanks, Bill. No, I can see you.
HEMMER: Listen, we do know that Colin Powell and Yasser Arafat -- great -- will sit down with Yasser Arafat. What is the Palestinian leader willing to concede to Colin Powell in order to make this mission a success?
IBISH: Well, I think it's clear that Arafat is the only person who's trying to cooperate with the United States right now. I mean, the United States demanded a restatement in what Arafat has said several times before this year that he's against all forms of violence and condemning specific suicide bombings. He delivered that, even though he's surrounded by tanks and with a gun to his head. And I think he could've made a plausible argument that he's made these statements before and he doesn't want to do it with a gun pointed at him, but he did do it.
Meanwhile, the Israelis have completely ignored President Bush's demands that they stop their incursions and -- not only have have they gone forward with it a week after Bush told them to stop it now, they used that week to conduct what appear to be colossal massacres and probable war crimes. We don't really know because they've prevented all journalists and humanitarian workers from reaching the region, probably because they feel that if the world saw first-hand what they've been doing, they'd be looking at a war crimes indictment at the Hague.
HEMMER: I'm going to get back to the meeting tomorrow quickly here.
IBISH: Yes.
HEMMER: Can the Palestinians afford not to hold this meeting?
IBISH: No, it's crucial for everyone. It's absolutely vital. It's even in the interest of the Israelis that this happened. I think it's very important that Secretary of State show willingness to pressure both the Israelis and the Palestinians. We haven't been willing to pressure the Israelis at all. But I think it's important that Yasser Arafat also demonstrate effectively to the Secretary of State tomorrow that the Palestinians are ready and willing for a peace that what the Palestinians actually are looking for is for a peace process and negotiating process that will get us out of his mess.
But the key to it is that everyone agrees that it's going to be designed to end the occupation, and end it not in gradual stages like before, but bring it to a complete end. And I think that Yasser Arafat can do that. And that's his burden.
HEMMER: You know, listen, what about this condemnation? It came out today, but you know that the White House and you know the Israelis have not been content at all in the past.
IBISH: Right.
HEMMER: With the public condemnations. You got one today. You had one back on December 16 from Yasser Arafat.
IBISH: Right.
HEMMER: There's a four month period.
IBISH: And one on March 28.
HEMMER: In between.
IBISH: Yes, there was one on March 28, too.
HEMMER: Well, that wasn't directly from Yasser Arafat. Palestinian...
IBISH: Yes, it was, actually. No, it was.
HEMMER: It wasn't in the terms -- it wasn't stated -- my question is this. Colin Powell goes there tomorrow and says, "Do it everyday from now on."
IBISH: Yes.
HEMMER: Is Yasser Arafat willing to do that?
IBISH: Well, I don't know. And I think that it would be -- it's kind of ridiculous to give somebody a script and tell him to say it everyday. I think it's reasonable to ask the Palestinians to take as many steps as possible to prevent these -- the suicide bombings, which are unacceptable, but it's not reasonable for them to be asked to do it at a time when their leader is encircled, surrounded by Israeli tanks when you know, Palestinian bodies are lying dead in the street, when most Palestinians who are involved in the Palestinian security force have been rounded up by Israeli troops or killed or you know, I mean, this is an entire society that has just been decimated, all its government institutions, its NGOS, its hospitals, its schools, etcetera, lie absolutely in ruins.
And turning to these people who are not only occupied, but now destroyed, and saying, OK, now it's your responsibility and yours alone and not offering them a political commitment that they're going to get their freedom and their independence through a negotiating process is silly.
You need to do these things simultaneously. You need to have a cease-fire in place, but you must provide a political process at the same time that replaces the violence with a political process. If you just say to people, "End the violence," that's not going to work. I'm sure.
HEMMER: I only have about 30 seconds left. And here's the point I want to get to. The United States may be well paying for the damage in the West Bank at some point if we're able to work toward...
IBISH: We paid for doing it.
HEMMER: ...the two sides. You have said that the 1990s peace process did not go far enough.
IBISH: Yes.
HEMMER: I know it's a big question. Only 20 seconds left. How much further should they have gone to get the two sides a done deal?
IBISH: What it needed to do was two things. It needed to be explicitly designed to end the occupation. And it wasn't. It was, you know, there was no agreement on all -- on both sides that this was going to bring the occupation to a complete end. And a new process has to begin at the beginning with an understanding by everyone that this is going to result an end to complete to the occupation. That way, Israelis can have the peace and security that they want. And Palestinians can finally at long last live in freedom and independence in their own state. That's the only way to go forward.
And I think it requires bold, courageous leadership from the United States. And I hope that we have it in us.
HEMMER: Yes, leadership from both sides here in the region, too. IBISH: Also.
HEMMER: In the Middle East, on both sides, Israelis and Palestinians.
IBISH: Yes.
HEMMER: Hussein Ibish, thank you, sir. We'll talk again, OK?
IBISH: Well, it's a great pleasure, thank you. For sure.
HEMMER: Thank you very much. In a moment, we're going to get an Israeli perspective. There is a large rally being planned for Washington, D.C. on Monday. We'll talk about that with one of the organizers when our coverage continues once again, live from Jerusalem. It's early Sunday morning. The meeting will take place within six hours' time. Back with more.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, is Arafat's Palestinian Authority on the verge of collapse?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking ahead to the future, a scenario that we all fear is one in which the administration effectively ceases to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: With many of the authority's buildings destroyed, fears it won't be able to recover. That story coming up on LIVE FROM JERUSALEM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: On Monday, there is rather large rally planned for Washington, D.C., a major organization of Jewish American leaders coming together to talk to lawmakers and also talk to the public about the current crisis.
Let's talk about that tonight. From New York tonight, our guest is Malcolm Hoenlein. He's from the Conference of Presidents, a major American Jewish organization. And we say good evening to you. The birds are chirping here in Jerusalem, just about sun up here in the Middle East. I want to know what your message is on Monday going to Washington and saying what?
MALCOLM HOENLEIN, CONF. OF PRESIDENTS OF MAJOR AMERICAN JEWISH ORG.: Our message is one of solidarity with the people of Israel at a very difficult time in its history. When it's fighting a battle for its life and its future that the American people, Jews and non-Jews, staying with Israel in the battle against terrorism after more than 12.5 thousand attacks -- terror attacks over the last 18 months, the equivalent of nine September 11 in proportional population to -- and the number of people killed in these terror assaults, and support for the president's war against terrorism, that these are both part and parcel of the same battle against the global infrastructure of terrorism.
HEMMER: Who's going to be there? And will there be Palestinians marching?
HOENLEIN: Well, there will be people of all faiths coming together, people from all over the country to be addressed by leaders of our country, from union leaders and ethnic leaders and political leaders, leaders of Congress who all understand this special relationship between the United States and Israel, understand what Israel is facing, that the right of Israel to defend itself in the face of this onslaught, this constant barrage of terrorism, and understanding that we all want to see the road to peace paved not on the bodies of Israelis and Palestinians, but based on real action, real commitment, not void words or declarations, as we heard today, but action that follows it to put an end to this onslaught.
HEMMER: You know that there are corners of Washington that are saying essentially that Colon Powell is on his own on this trip -- not everyone, but there are some voices. When you hear that, how do you gauge American support right now for what you are describing taking place in Israel?
HOENLEIN: I think people want Colin Powell to succeed. The people of Israel want him to succeed. I think most Palestinians do. The problem is in their leadership. The people in the United States understand that Colin Powell has a very difficult task We have seen nine cease-fires all violated by Mr. Arafat and his associates. We have seen...
HEMMER: How about this one, how about the fact that the Israeli government does not want any meeting with Yasser Arafat, the Israeli government does not want Colin Powell to sit down and talk with him in Ramallah? If there is success in that meeting, sooner or later the Israeli government is going to have to sit back down with Yasser Arafat. Are they prepared to do that knowing that they have said publicly that they believe he is irrelevant?
HOENLEIN: I think the reluctance is that you don't reward terrorism, that you don't give somebody who continues to allow his minions to give orders for terrorist attacks, the Al Aqsa Brigade, his own associates and affiliate having been responsible for the last. They recognize that they want real leadership, that there has to be leaders who emerge from the Palestinian people who are prepared to sit down seriously and not avoid the negotiations that took place at Camp David and at Taba (ph) which did offer them the opportunity of a brighter future, of control of their own lives and ultimately their own state.
Mr. Sharon himself has said that he sees a state in the future of the Palestinian people, but he can not negotiate under the threat of terrorism, the ongoing fighting. And I think the reluctance about Arafat is that you continue this myth that how somehow he is prepared to deliver on a peace agreement.
HEMMER: Malcolm Hoenlein, from New York tonight. Thank you, sir, for your time and we will watch that rally Monday and certainly gauge reaction from it. Thank you again live in New York tonight.
We have been watching several protests throughout the Arab world for two weeks running now. We have seen major Arab capitals being lined with thousands and thousands of protesters, protesting against the Israeli incursions in the West Bank. The U.S. has asked Israel to get out, to this point no timetable, no timeframe has been set. Possibly as we move toward later days here with Colin Powell's visit in the region, we will get a firm idea of when the incursions will end. Back with more in a moment here.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead here on LIVE FROM JERUSALEM.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do feel that the whole world is against us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Why many Israelis continue to support their government's military action. An act of defiance, they say, borne of necessity.
LIVE FROM JERUSALEM is back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: The Jenin refugee camp was established in 1953, and has a population of around 15,000 people. While some residents work around Jenin, many depend on finding work inside Israel proper.
HEMMER: Once again, welcome back. We are live from Jerusalem, still anticipating and awaiting that meeting in Ramallah between Colin Powell and Yasser Arafat. As we begin another half-hour here, a look at the headlines right now from around the region as we saw them on Saturday.
First up, Colin Powell and Yasser Arafat. That meeting will take place in Ramallah. Secretary Powell agreed to that meeting after the Palestinian leader issued a statement condemning violence against Israelis. That statement written in Arabic, translated it says in part now, I'm quoting: "President Arafat and the Palestinian leadership condemn all kinds of terrorist activity, coming from the deep principle against using violence and terrorism against civilians as a means to achieve political gains," end quote.
Finally, some journalists, just a handful, got a look inside the refugee camp in Jenin this weekend. Israeli forces took on that camp two weeks ago, and today, still no clear body count. Palestinians call the assault a massacre, but Israel says the death toll the result of a brutal conflict that took place inside there.
Let's talk more about peace right now, and if indeed Colin Powell meets some level of success there. Looking down the road, what can keep the peace? Is an international force necessary in the West Bank and Gaza and other parts of the Middle East? And if so, what part would the U.S. play on that?
Back to Little Rock, Arkansas. Back with us, retired General Wesley Clark is our guest once again. General, here's probably the most difficult question of the night: If indeed you get peace, how do you police it? Your thoughts on that.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think that the agreement has to be more than just the division of the ground and the settlements and so forth. In the agreement, there has to be the specific responsibilities and the authorizations for some kind of a peace force.
The formula that we used in the Bosnia peace agreement some seven years ago was to give the commander of the force very wide authorities so that he can follow up on all leads and he could do anything that had to be done. And that's what made the Bosnia mission successful. So I think the model here has to be somewhat the same. If the force is going to be there, it has to have enough authority -- more than enough authority to accomplish the specific responsibilities it's assigned.
Now, even if it's there, handling the threat of terrorism is the most difficult, if not impossible, mission a force like this could ever have. The Israelis can't do it; they have all the intelligence on the ground, and one of the things you understand with the peace force is: When it goes in, it just doesn't have access to the kinds of on the ground human intelligence that the indigenous forces are likely to have. And so, this makes its mission very, very difficult.
And so, in order to compensate for that, we've got to be sure we've got lots and lots of authorities from both sides for that peace force.
HEMMER: Give me a perspective inside the Pentagon. Some are talking in this region that if the U.S. were to put some sort of intervention force on the ground, they mention Beirut almost in the same breath. We all know what happened about 20 years ago. In the military today at the Pentagon, how much of the fear is still present, give those events two decades ago?
CLARK: Well, I think there's two things here, Bill. First, the Pentagon is not going to be anxious to put a peace force on the ground because the numbers of U.S. troops are limited, and there are many other requirements for these troops. They're still serving in the Balkans, they're in Afghanistan. We're talking about other operations in the war on terror. They've got normal training to do. It's a volunteer force. And so, there are many requirements, and if we put, let's say, a brigade into this sized force over there, maybe three brigades total, maybe one brigade American, then you've got another two brigades tied up replacing it and reinforcing it. That's a significant commitment.
So they're not going to want to do that. And there is always the risk that if this force gets in and the agreement is not solid and it's not finalized, that somehow this force could become enmeshed in the struggle, and it could be a pawn from both sides. It can be targeted, as it was in Beirut, or it could simply be discredited, as the U.N. peace mission was in Bosnia in 1994 and '95.
HEMMER: Quickly here, about 30 seconds left, general. Some in Washington are saying that they have abandoned any hope for Colin Powell not only to have any success on this mission but even to do it in the first place. How prevalent do you believe that attitude is?
CLARK: Well, I think there are some who are going to say that, but I think those people would be -- are mistaken in the way they're expressing this. In any diplomatic mission like this, it's important to keep the expectations down. He's going to do a lot of things behind the scenes that we'll probably never see that could set the stage for progress later on. But what he should not want to do and what the administration should not want to do is play up the expectations.
Look, the Israelis are in a dilemma. Yasser Arafat says he can't control all and didn't cause all this terrorism. So how can the Israelis pull its offensive back until it's completed its mission? And on the other hand, Arafat is in a dilemma. He says he wants that force out of there before he starts talking. Colin Powell has got to walk between both those dilemmas, and he's got to deliver not only the United States' messages but he's got to harness and deliver the Arab messages. And so he's got a big task. It may be several days -- or weeks -- before anything significant emerges, but don't write this one off because the United States is engaged and it's very important. This is a hurdle we'll have to cross.
HEMMER: Thank you, general. It is a labyrinth, through and through. General Wesley Clark again live in Little Rock. We'll talk again.
Back here in the region now, in the West Bank town of Jenin, journalists have struggled for days now to try and get a look inside. You know the allegations on both sides have been extremely strong. The Israeli Supreme Court right now filed an injunction -- issued it, rather, over the weekend, telling the Israeli military not to touch or move any bodies until a hearing is conducted later on Sunday.
Sheila MacVicar was outside that city earlier on Saturday. Her report right now about what's happening on the inside.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): On the road to the Israeli checkpoint that leads to the occupied territories in the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli peace activists marched on Saturday. They are demanding an end to Israel's military incursions and demanding to know what happened in Jenin.
URI AZNERY, GOGH SHELOM: The offensive by the Israeli Army was terrible because all means were used to minimize not on the Israeli side, maximize not on the Palestinian side.
MACVICAR: For nine days now, Jenin refugee camp has been all but inaccessible. The fighting there fierce. In that area, 22 Israeli soldiers dead and no one yet knows how many Palestinians. (on-camera): The longer Jenin camp remains closed off, the more many people, especially Palestinians say they are convinced something terrible has happened there. People here are talking about massacres, about hundred of people killed. There is no way to confirm any of these stories, no way until international observers are let back into the camp.
(voice-over): One of the few journalists to have made it into the camp is Michel Scott, the French TV network, TF1. This is what he saw on Friday. In crowded alleys, evidence of heavy fighting. Israeli bulldozers leveling buildings in the center of town and very little evidence of human life until a young woman appeared in a doorway.
Endeera Harb (ph) does not know where her brother is. She has been trapped for nine days in her house with her mother and three small children.
"I didn't see anyone killed in front of my eyes, but in my sister's house across the alley, there are five people dead."
The bodies lie in two rooms. No one has been able to move them. It is not safe to try to take them out. The neighbors say they were not fighters.
Another woman called out. In a nearby courtyard, the body of her brother-in-law shot by an Israeli sniper, she says, six days ago. Her family has had to leave his body in the shed where he crawled to die.
"He went to get water for his children from the well," she says, "and he got shot. They did terrible things to us."
Families have sheltered together, unable to go outside, they say, for fear of Israeli snipers. People in the camp themselves do not know how many people have died.
"No one has accurate information," says this man, "but we hear at least 300 dead, maybe more."
MICHEL SCOTT, TF1 CORRESPONDENT: Actually, the bulldozers aren't actually -- they are really, you know, flattened some very wide areas in the center of the camp itself. So it's very difficult to know, of course, what's underneath there. Is there buried bodies or not? We were not in a position to see that.
MACVICAR: The Israeli military is now collecting bodies on a hill a few minutes away. They have refrigerator trucks waiting.
The Israelis say they are taking away the dead from the camp they still control to prevent the Palestinians staging evidence of a massacre.
MOSHE FOGEL, IDF SPOKESMAN: Many of the bodies are still being held by the Palestinians themselves in a propaganda ploy, simply that when we leave the area, they'll be thrown out in the street or displayed to create the wrong impression that they were massacred. MACVICAR: Palestinians charge the Israelis are trying to cover up evidence of what happened in Jenin while the Israel military now acknowledges at least 100 people died here. They say, all were fighters, but so many people have fled their homes in the camp and so many men may be in Israeli detentions. It will be very difficult to determine precisely what happened, who was killed and why.
Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Shalom Checkpoint, Israel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Again, that is near the town of Jenin in the northern part of the West Bank. Also in the West Bank, in the town of Nablus, nearby, not too far from Jenin, there are also claims there of atrocities from Palestinians as well. In fact, some videotape exposed on Saturday. A Palestinian man says rescue workers pulled the bodies of eight of his relatives from a home that crumbled when Israeli bulldozers demolished an empty building next door. Two members of the family pulled from the rubble alive. Israeli military says it has no knowledge of the collapsed compound. Again, this from the town of Nablus.
All over the West Bank, though, since the incursion began, there was extensive damage in parts of infrastructures, and some place have been out and out destroyed, buildings and water systems as well. John Vause now with a report on the staggering cost and the progress it will take to rebuild.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For more than two weeks now, the Israeli military has gone from city, to town, to village, dismantling a terrorist infrastructure, they say, but leaving behind a trail of destroyed homes, buildings, damaged roads, smashed water systems. Tens of thousands under curfew at gunpoint running short of just about everything.
RICHARD COOK, U.N.: In the case of the Jenin camp, they just would not let us in.
VAUSE: Richard Cook oversees the U.N. relief work for the West Bank. Right now, he's trying to get supplies into a dozen small towns and refugee camps, especially Jenin.
(on camera): Every day, the U.N. workers here have been loading up the trucks like this one. It's bound for Jenin, and it's full of food, water, medicine, everything that people there need. But there is a problem. It can't make it through the military checkpoints and get access to the refugee camps. They send them anyway, and once there they wait.
(voice-over): For Richard Cook, it means spending his days pleading with the IDF for permission to pass.
COOK: In more recent days, they haven't really given us an answer. VAUSE (on camera): They just say no?
COOK: They just say not today.
VAUSE (voice-over): When they do get in, aid workers believe they can cope with the immediate, basic needs, but long term there are much bigger concerns.
NIGEL ROBERTS, WORLD BANK: But looking ahead to the future, a scenario that we all fear is one in which the administration effectively ceases to function.
VAUSE: In other words, the complete collapse of the Palestinian Authority's ability to deliver basic civil service. The buildings housing many ministries have been badly damaged. Schools and hospitals, according to the U.N., have been caught in the crossfire.
DIANA BUTTU, PLO LEGAL ADVISER: I'm afraid the children won't be able to be educated over the next year, that we won't be able to provide adequate health services to people. These are all things that we'll take a long time to redevelop.
VAUSE: There is a promise of aid, $90 million from the U.S., hundreds of millions more from the Arab world.
COOK: It's going to run into, I'd say, the hundreds of millions of dollars, to replace infrastructure, to replace telephone lines and roads, buildings.
VAUSE: But Richard Cook admits he's only guessing. Besides, he says, it's too early to talk reconstruction, with Operation Defensive Shield still under way.
John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back to Jerusalem. We are going to gauge Israeli opinion now, this a day after a suicide bomber again rocked central Jerusalem. Six killed, plus the bomber, late on Friday afternoon. Jason Bellini went out to take the pulse of sorts among the streets of Jerusalem. What he found is that Israelis still remain defiant in the face of terror.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It was a small act of defiance. Twenty minutes before a suicide bomber killed six Israelis, a crowd gathered on a street corner for a party. They were only blocks away from the blast, a street party emblematic of a defiant undercurrent in Israeli society, that despite what most of the world might think and what world leaders, including the President of the United States, now demand withdrawal of the military in the West Bank, Israelis say they'll be neither swayed nor forced. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't give a damn about what my mother thinks. I won't give a damn about what America thinks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, things don't seem to be getting any better, you know. The rest of the world will say, oh yes, (inaudible) over here.
BELLINI: Even some Israeli leftists, who disagree with their country's action, say that the world should mind its own business.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any changes that need to be made, we have to initiate them regardless of what other countries think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need our boots black all the time.
BELLINI: Eleanor Shiffrin and her son Gabby, an Israeli soldier, expressed that same message, but in much stronger terms.
ELEANOR SHIFFRIN: We do feel that the whole world is against us no.
BELLINI: And that doesn't bother you?
E. SHIFFRIN: Look, what bothers me is whether we have enough courage and enough unity as a nation here to defend what is just, to defend what we see as our God given right for this land.
G. SHIFFRIN: We do what we have to do.
BELLINI: Israeli public opinion polls consistently show support for Sharon's military actions, even though most Israelis know those actions have not been good diplomatically for their country. Does it matter what the rest of the world thinks? Do Israelis care what the rest of the world thinks?
G. SHIFFRIN: Yes, it matters. It matters. We need the support of the rest of the world, but they don't know what is the situation here.
BELLINI: (Inaudible) Israelis, that the world doesn't appreciate their hardships. Palestinian victims, they say, win more sympathy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, it looks like that we are the bad guys and they are the good, and you know the weak guys.
E. SHIFFRIN: It is always interesting and something hard, something especially brutal, something bloody, and who can survive then with this information is the Arabs.
BELLINI: Others believe that Israel's problems with President Bush and the United States are political.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like I said, it's not really because (inaudible) that were not OK, because he's worried about what he's going to do in Iraq and he needs the whole consensus of the Arab world and it's not really about us. BELLINI: Israelis say theirs is a defiance born of a necessity. They live in a region where they may never be liked, where doing what you have to do, they say, isn't always pretty. Jason Bellini, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: In a moment when we come back live from Jerusalem, in a moment here, Bill Schneider and the fight over such a tiny piece of land.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Throughout the past week, we've been trying to take some of the more complex issues surrounding this region and break them down into a way that's more understood. Bill Schneider has been doing this for us, and tonight the topic is the tiny patch of land that is the geography of the Middle East. Here's Bill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on-camera): This deadly conflict has been going on for over 50 years, longer than the Cold War. What's it all about? Real estate, a very small piece of real estate.
(voice-over): Two peoples, one land. How much land? Let's take the whole of Israel in the West Bank and Gaza and fly it overseas, dropping it on top of the United States. It's not much bigger than the state of New Hampshire. Now, compare the populations. Israel, the West Bank and Gaza nearly 10 million people. New Hampshire? Just slightly more than a million. Big difference. About the same small amount of land as New Hampshire, but eight times as many people, fighting over it.
If you separate the territories Israel captured in 1967, Israel is even smaller than New Hampshire. The whole country is less than 300 miles from north to south. At its widest, just 85 miles across. At its narrowest, Israel is about eight miles wide, eight miles.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For a Texan, a first visit of Israel is an eye-opener. The narrowest point, it's only eight miles from the Mediterranean to the Old Armistice Line. That's less than from the top of the bottom to Dallas/Ft. Worth Airport.
SCHNEIDER: Within those pre-1967 borders, including Jerusalem, Jews make up 80 percent of the population. One-fifth of Israel citizens are Arabs. The West Bank and Gaza are overwhelmingly Arab. Add them in and Jews make up only a bear majority of the overall population.
Now, consider this -- the birth rate among Israeli Jews is 2.6 children per family. That's high by U.S. and European standards. For Israeli Arabs, the birth rate is more than four children. For Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, the birth rate soars, an average of six children. At that rate, Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza by the year 2020, which is one reason why many Israelis have come to favor a separate Palestinian state.
Israel is a democracy and if it has a majority Arab population, it cannot remain a Jewish state for long.
(on-camera): But if Israel withdraws to its 1967 borders, as Arab states demand, can the security of such a tiny state be defended against the overwhelming population of the Arab world? Imagine if the rest of the U.S. were to declare war on New Hampshire.
Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Thank you, Bill. Fascinating look all week from Bill Schneider. In a moment, a final thought, as again we approach that meeting in Ramallah. Back in a moment, live in Jerusalem.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: U.S. Middle East envoy Anthony Zinni remains in the region. The retired Marine Corps general once headed the U.S. Central Command, which oversees American forces in 25 countries, including the Middle East.
HEMMER: Welcome back to Jerusalem. The dawn of another day is soon upon us. The sun is now breaking through the clouds just over East Jerusalem there, across the way on the other side of the old city.
We are watching the clock and watching the road to Ramallah. Only about five hours before the Secretary of State Colin Powell sits down in that besieged compound with the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Many say that war is the easy part; peace is not. We're all about to find out just how difficult this mission may be.
Thanks for watching. Have a good day. I'm Bill Hemmer, live in Jerusalem. See you again a bit later on Sunday. So long now.
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