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Jerusalem: Crisis in the Middle East

Aired April 14, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, HOST: And perhaps the shuttle diplomacy is well under way already. Colin Powell today from Ramallah to Tel Aviv. Tomorrow, it's Beirut and Damascus. However, tonight, there are continued questions as to whether or not Secretary Powell is making any headway right now in the rough and deep waters of Middle East peace. That is our focus tonight, once again here live in Jerusalem.

ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, Powell's search for peace. Face to face, eye to eye.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We just completed useful and constructive exchange with Chairman Arafat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: We'll hear from Israel's foreign minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: We cannot force the Palestinians to change their leaders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And a man sitting at the table with Yasser Arafat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are fully committed to all obligations emanating from understandings and agreements (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Also, the powder keg at the border.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: This has been a decades-old conflict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The standoff in Bethlehem.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. ANDREW WHITE: Before you know, you have a humanitarian crisis, but you also have potentially almost an apocalyptic crisis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Live from Jerusalem, Powell's search for peace. Here's Bill Hemmer.

HEMMER: Hello again from Jerusalem. The two sides did a lot of talking today -- not individually, but rather separately in their own camps. Saeb Erakat and Shimon Peres will share their thoughts on the day and the talks today with Secretary Powell, and we shall see if indeed the ball has been moved anywhere in this current crisis. That's coming up momentarily.

First the headlines now. From the Middle East -- I mentioned before Ramallah and Tel Aviv -- the two stops today for Secretary Powell. In Tel Aviv, he met with the prime minister, Ariel Sharon, but was not given a specific timetable as to the withdrawal of the military troops in the West Bank. All that coming earlier, after a meeting with Yasser Arafat in Ramallah, Powell said that meeting was, quote, "Useful and constructive." We'll try and define that before the night is out here.

Also, the Israeli Supreme Court announced a plan to allow burial of Palestinians killed at the Jenin refugee camp. Palestinians say that's a site of a massacre; Israel says that is not the case. There are still sporadic gun battles going on in and around that refugee camp as of Sunday.

Back to the headline tonight, though. Secretary Powell did meet with both sides, but there are continued questions as to whether or not he made any progress. Tomorrow we know he goes north to Beirut, then east to Damascus, Syria. There is a lot riding not only on today's meetings, but certainly on what happens tomorrow.

And with his every step, here is Andrea Koppel now from Tel Aviv.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This is what Secretary of State Powell saw as he drove into Ramallah, once a vibrant political hub of the Palestinian Authority, now a virtual ghost town. The only signs of life, heavily armed Israeli soldiers.

(on camera): This is the compound where Yasser Arafat has been under siege for weeks. Just over there, there's barbed wire. Israeli soldiers and, in fact, their tanks deployed over there in front of the compound. We'd show you but we're not allowed to film them.

(voice over): Security was especially tight this day for Powell's much anticipated meeting with Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat, a meeting which ran three hours and ended with Powell striking an optimistic note.

POWELL: Ladies and gentlemen, I just completed a useful and constructive exchange with Chairman Arafat and the members of his staff, and we exchanged a variety of ideas and discussed steps on how we can move forward.

KOPPEL: Among those ideas, U.S. and Palestinian officials tell CNN, working to secure a quick and peaceful end to this standoff between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian gunmen at Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, providing international aid to help rebuild ruined West Bank infrastructure, and coordinating actions to further flush out Arafat's recent statement condemning terrorism to ensure an end to suicide bombings.

Palestinian officials say Arafat told Powell he wanted to cooperate, but said the ongoing Israeli military offensive in the West Bank is a major stumbling block.

NABIL SHA'ATH, PALESTINIAN CABINET MINISTER: He will do everything possible to stop all violence, once a cease-fire is agreed, once the Israelis for once comply with what President Bush has been telling them, get out now.

KOPPEL: It's a message Powell again delivered to Israel's Prime Minister during their second meeting this week. Senior U.S. officials telling CNN Powell warned Ariel Sharon, the U.S. is very concerned about the humanitarian situation in the Palestinian territories. In particular, Powell told Sharon: "Suspicion is growing about what's going on in the Jenin Refugee Camp."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: And on Monday, Secretary Powell will take a brief break from the Israel-Palestinian crisis and will travel to Beirut, Lebanon and Damascus, Syria to focus on another U.S. concern, the increased fighting on the Israeli-Lebanon border, Bill, which U.S. officials really fear could be the start of a wider regional war.

HEMMER: What planning was in this trip to Beirut and Damascus? Was this essentially ad-libbed along this trip, or was this thought before in Washington?

KOPPEL: Well, we had enough of a hint, that when I rented my cell mobile home before we left home, I made sure to get Damascus, which actually you don't get phone service for -- but also Beirut on it.

We did know, and you got a preview of it on Friday, when Secretary Powell took that helicopter ride up to the border with Lebanon. The U.S. has been also -- Vice President Cheney calling President Assad in Syria to tell him, you've got to stop letting those arms shipments get in Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon, so this was not a surprise at all. HEMMER: Quickly to the trip in Ramallah. We heard the words "useful and constructive." Have you been able to get a better picture about how we defined those two phrases from that meeting?

KOPPEL: Diplomatic speak is really a pain in the neck, OK? Bottom line is, when you read between the lines, it meant it went pretty well. It went pretty well. They did not have a breakthrough, but this wasn't a breakdown. They made enough progress so that the two Arafat aides and Powell's aides are going to meet tomorrow, and hopefully they'll actually have something to announce in the next few days or so.

HEMMER: What is Secretary Powell's side saying about him physically going back to Ramallah and meeting with Yasser Arafat? Is that a possibility, or how it will be?

KOPPEL: Absolutely. I mean, I think if you're talking about security, I don't think that is a concern. Obviously it was going in today, but it went off without a hitch. Really what they're looking for, Bill, is enough progress to make a second trip worthwhile.

HEMMER: OK, Andrea, thanks. Andrea Koppel, dogging the secretary's steps the whole way. Many thanks to you.

Let me get more perspective now on what happened in Ramallah. Saeb Erakat is the chief Palestinian negotiator. He joins us tonight by telephone in Jericho. Sir, appreciate your time. It is late in the evening where you are. It is our understanding the reports indicate that Secretary Powell told Yasser Arafat and others that what they want to see are actions and not words. What actions are the Palestinians willing to take right now to make sure that suicide bombers no longer come to Israeli cities?

SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: Well, I think the secretary's there (UNINTELLIGIBLE) very much the fact that President Arafat (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the statement, the statement yesterday, condemning all acts of terrorism, whether targeting Israelis or Palestinians. And the point today is if you want to declare a cease- fire, you need two parties. One party disappeared. The Palestinian Authority has been targeted, has been damaged. We no longer have Palestinian areas. They are all reoccupied. So I think the secretary understood that first things first, an Israeli immediate withdrawal from the areas that they reoccupied, and from President Arafat full commitment to carry out all obligations emanating from the cease-fire from 1402, another agreement signed.

HEMMER: Let me try a different approach then. If the military withdrawal does not happen to your satisfaction in the days to come, or immediately in your words, will the suicide bombers come back to Israel?

ERAKAT: Well, that's not the point -- your question was about our ability to stop them, and we want to do everything to do that.

HEMMER: Well, that certainly is the point for the Israelis, and I guess that is my point tonight and my question. ERAKAT: OK. Well, their point, Bill, that they entered our areas to destroy the infrastructure of the Palestinian Authority, the Israeli forces, in order to prevent these suicide bombings. Now, in the last incursion, we had three of them. Now we're telling Sharon, I don't think you're going to stop this action by military means, by making the Palestinians living the way they live, by destroying their livelihood. It's not going to take a military solution, because now, instead of having one authority, without the Palestinian Authority you're going to end up with 3.3 million authorities, each speaking revenge.

HEMMER: But Mr. Erakat, you know the Israeli position. They're saying the military action was a result of suicide bombings, specifically the one that happened on the night of Passover in Netanya, and they say that their own securities being threatened by these terrorist attacks. If that's the case and you want to work toward some sort of meaningful cease-fire, and I know you say that you cannot control all of them, but certainly you have the power within you to talk publicly about this, and condemn it continually, not just yesterday on Saturday with that statement in Arabic.

ERAKAT: We have always done so, and yesterday was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) destruction, the massacre in Jenin, the massacre in our city of Nablus, the site of the Nativity Church, Bethlehem areas, the destruction of Palestinian infrastructure, we continued to do so. But now I think you said it, you want peace and not words from us.

So what we're telling you now, Sharon has made sure in the last 16 days to destroy the Palestinian Authority and he is doing a damn good job at it. He is destroying our infrastructure, he is destroying our abilities -- so we don't want to find ourselves giving so much commitments in war, in order for Bill Hemmer to stand, two weeks from now, and say Palestinians have not delivered on what they have promised.

We want to have a credible situation, and a credible situation will follow these events only if we can resume our action as a Palestinian authority, if we can resume to carry our obligations from Palestinian areas, which no longer exist because they are re-occupied by the Israelis.

HEMMER: OK. OK, you brought up Jenin, and you used the word "massacre" there. Earlier this week, you said 500 Palestinians were killed there. Do you still stand behind those numbers in the refugee camp?

ERAKAT: I said 523 were killed, actually, since the incursions began throughout the West Bank. And I asked you a question, Bill.

HEMMER: But you said specifically, and others, said 500 in Jenin.

ERAKAT: I think...

HEMMER: Where are you getting the evidence that shows 500 people were killed there? ERAKAT: I don't have evidence, I just really cannot be very (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I said that. But I ask one question: what would the Israelis have to have, I have you interviewing Richard Cook, the Director of General United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Anarwalh (ph), who told you the situation is catastrophic, they are not shooting, one-sided shooting, why don't they allow CNN people to enter the Jenin refugee camp?

Why did they stop Richard Cook and his people from the U.N. to enter the refugee camp? This refugee camp is under the full legal jurisdiction of the United Nations. Why did they stop the International Red Cross to go there? Or Israeli NGOs to go there? They're trying to cover up. And so far...

HEMMER: These are the questions you bring up there, I think those questions are very valid, and we've been pushing the Israeli government to get in there, hopefully on Monday, when the sun comes up we'll have that opportunity.

Back to my question, though. The Israelis say the number of dead is less than 100, closer to 70, the Defense Minister said that on Sunday morning. If their numbers are right, and your initial numbers are wrong, will you come back here on our network and retract what you said?

ERAKAT: Absolutely. Absolutely, Bill. And I hope that the numbers will be nothing. I hope the numbers will be zero. Because every human life (UNINTELLIGIBLE) counts for me. I have 1,600 names, missing people from the refugee camp. I have mothers calling me, speaking about missing their daughters, their sons...I have husbands missing their wives, I have parents missing their grandparents.

And now the numbers that we have been told to us throughout the West Bank incursions, 500, I hope the numbers in Jenin will not exceed -- you know, any number is too much. Any people killed is too much. And yet, if they can't allow us to go there, they cannot allow (UNINTELLIGIBLE) graveyards, and allow the NGOs, Anarwalh (ph), and the Red Cross -- I'll be more than happy to come and say yes, we were mistaken, the numbers were wrong.

But I'm afraid to tell you that they're have been doing a lot of cover-up, their army spokesman two days ago said the numbers killed are in hundreds. Actually, three days ago, Shimon Peres said that there is a...

(CROSSTALK)

ERAKAT: ...and I hope the numbers will be, you know, not as much as we said.

HEMMER: I'm sure very soon, sir, we shall all know what the truth is on the ground there in Jenin. Thank you, Saeb Erakat, Chief Palestinian negotiator, again, by telephone tonight, in Jericho. Again, thanks for staying up late with us tonight, sir.

Meanwhile, earlier today from the Israeli perspective, the Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres did an exclusive interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer about the current situation, the stand-off, the talks, and Secretary Powell's visit here. They also talked about Yasser Arafat. That is the first topic where we pick up that conversation from earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Mr. Minister, thanks so much for joining us. After you and your late colleague, the then-Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin signed that Oslo agreement on the south lawn of the White House, September of 1993; you, Rabin, and Yasser Arafat all won the Nobel Peace Prize. Do you still believe that when all is said and done, that Yasser Arafat is a legitimate peace partner for Israel right now?

SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: He is legitimate in the sense that he was elected by the Palestinian people and we cannot replace the Palestinian people. We cannot elect their leaders. Or fire them. But, I think Arafat has to do some -- has to take some proposals to become a leader. The most important one, I would say, is to establish a single authority among the Palestinians about the arms, the carriers of arms, and the use of it. Otherwise, he will be hiding a chaotic situation.

BLITZER: Mr. Minister, correct me if I am wrong, but I sense some differences within your national unity government. Some of your colleagues, Likud members in particular, say they've written off Yasser Arafat. They say he's a terrorist, and should not be even considered in negotiations. You've not written him off by any means, have you?

PERES: We have differences, it's a coalition government, it's not a secret. We have different policies and clearly, the policy I represent does not agree with the Likud policy. We don't make any secrets about it. Now, when it comes to Arafat, I'm really trying to see or think who should, in the eyes of the other people, replace him. I mean, maybe there are other candidates to succeed him, but they don't think they will be better, or more promising. We cannot force the Palestinians to change their leaders, but we have to press upon the Palestinians to change their policies. Namely, to stop terror and end that into a meaningful negotiation.

BLITZER: What about the situation in Bethlehem? Today is Sunday. The situation in Bethlehem remains, as it's been, a standoff, a serious standoff. Some 200 Palestinian gunmen inside the Church of the Nativity. We've now heard from a spokesman for your government saying Israel has come up with a proposal to let them leave -- those 200 -- to get safe passage and leave this area forever, in effect, although its doubtful that Palestinians necessarily will support that. Do you have any other way of trying to ease that situation?

PERES: No. There are armed people; there are people who should be blamed for many acts of terror and violence. We have approached the Vatican -- we told them that we want to respect the holiness of the church. We don't want our forces in any way to penetrate or disturb the position of this church, as it is being accepted by all of us -- and for that reason we told the Vatican that we are ready to let the people who are in the church to go abroad and bring an end to this story.

To us, it's quite a difficult situation, because the moment the people who are there, there are real murderers; there are really people that are to be blamed for many acts of terror and violence. But since we want to bring a peaceful end to this story -- and by the way, the Vatican says that the Palestinians were the ones who violated the holiness of the church -- we are proposing what we did propose.

BLITZER: You know your government is also being severely criticized by the Palestinians, and elsewhere, around the world for what's happened over these past few days in the Palestinian refugee camp in Jenin, on the West Bank. Accusations of an Israeli massacre against Palestinians. Are you now prepared to allow independent observers, from the Red Cross, from the U.N., journalists -- to go into that camp and see firsthand what may have occurred?

PERES: It is our intention, once the fire will be stopped. But I want to tell you about Jenin, there are rumors and there are facts. But we are now dealing and facing is more rumors than facts. I would like to mention two points. One, most of the buildings that were destroyed were tracked by mines. And they became, you know, a living bomb. And also, many of the people -- the ones who even surrendered -- became a human mine. They carried explosives on their body.

I must say it was a bitter struggle, a bitter fight, in Jenin. We have lost 23 soldiers. It's not an easy proposition for any of us. And I know now it was given orders, not to hit any civilian, and to the best of my knowledge, the army took it very seriously. The men that went there are people of reserve, people with experience; everybody could have listened to their reports and attitudes, and we didn't want to create any thing that looks like, or is, a massacre.

BLITZER: If you have, Mr. Minister, nothing to hide, why not simply let those independent, outside observers into Jenin?

PERES: I am telling you there is still an exchange of fire in Jenin. And there can be caught by a crossfire. But I think the army is thinking of opening up Jenin for the visitors, and eventually it will be open. I don't think it will take a day or less than that, or more than that, but within a very short period of time, Jenin will be open.

BLITZER: As you know, there has been a proposal now floated out there of having some sort of international presence -- international force -- perhaps including U.S. troops, separate Israelis and Palestinians on the West Bank. Is this an idea that your government is ready to accept?

PERES: No. We think that before you have observers, you have to decide what are they going to observe. Namely, you have to have an agreement. If you don't have an agreement, what will the observers going to do? What can they do? So the first step, before we talk about observers, is leave it to decide, where are the lines, who is in charge, and then -- discuss the possibility of observers. We have agreed, by the way, to have American observers already a few month ago, in Gaza, in order to supervise a very complicated point in the Salon (ph) part of Gaza, in Rapart (ph). It didn't materialize for different reasons. But, I believe, that what is really needed is an agreement before any observations.

BLITZER: The foreign minister of Israel, Shimon Peres. Thanks so much for joining us today, from Tel Aviv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Shimon Peres, earlier today, with Wolf Blitzer. In a moment, here, retired General Wesley Clark will join us to talk about the stakes north of the border. That's up next when our coverage continues, Live From Jerusalem.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: the threat at the border. Could the crisis expand? And, how far? Will history repeat itself? A look back at the Six Day War. And, from bustling city to war zone ruins -- the view from Ramallah. LIVE FROM JERUSALEM will return in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Back here in Jerusalem again, it's late on Sunday evening, well into Monday morning local time here in the Middle East. But back in Washington, at the White House, they are certainly keeping a close eye on Secretary Powell's movements, his talks, and where he is headed next. Are there concerns that are legitimate now that a widening conflict may result north of the border? For more on that, at the White House for us tonight, here's Major Garrett.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While the world focuses on Powell's efforts to negotiate an Israeli- Palestinian cease-fire, the first priority of the Bush White House is to prevent the conflict from spreading to neighboring Lebanon or Syria.

RICHARD ARMITAGE, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: We're very concerned with that which is why the United States has exerted tremendous pressure on Iran and Syria to refrain Hezbollah from these actions.

GARRETT: For two weeks, Hezbollah guerrillas, backed by Iran and Syria, have traded fire with Israeli forces. Powell will travel to Beirut and Damascus to meet Monday with leaders of both countries to halt what the U.S. regards as dangerous and destabilizing provocations.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: This is an issue of accountability for the parties in the region. Secretary Powell is in the region to call to account all of the parties that have a role to play here, to play a responsible role.

GARRETT: Top aides say they hope Powell can contain the conflict, even if he fails to negotiate an immediate cease-fire. And those talks are mired in the question of Israeli withdrawals from the West Bank, and pushing Palestinians to act against terrorism.

Senior officials on Sunday noted some progress, but said Israelis and Palestinians still had much more to do.

RICE: This has been a decades-old conflict. And there's a reason for that. And that is that it requires hard steps to move forward.

GARRETT: Senior aides say containment is a modest and achievable goal, a prelude to more progress. But some in Congress want more.

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: The time for nibbling around the edges is over. We are seeing an escalation of a magnitude that we've probably never seen with the kind of unprecedented violence.

GARRETT: But other analysts warn that bold moves could come back to haunt the Bush White House.

DAVID MAKOVSKY, WASHINGTON INST. FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: I think the administration wisely says unless we know that a political process is going to bear fruit, we are not going to set the bar so high that we're setting ourselves up to fail.

GARRETT: The White House says the progress in the Middle East is nothing if not incremental. And senior aides say success is not measured by startling breakthroughs, at least for now, but really by making sure things don't get any worse.

Major Garrett, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BILL HEMMER: All right, the strategies now for containing the possibility of a wider conflict. In Washington now, Retired General Wesley Clark, our military analyst, back again with us this evening. Good to see you, again, General. Thanks for your time. What kind of influence does Colin Powell have in Beirut and Damascus? In other words, what does he go there and say and do tomorrow?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, he's got to first convey the fact that Israel itself has tremendous striking power, and that Israel could hold these governments, and their armed forces, responsible, and the installations that these governments value. So I think he's going to convey not an American threat but the possibility of escalated Israeli action.

I think he's soon got to talk about the wide interests in the region. I think he's got to have reinforcement from the Saudis and the Egyptians and the others that they don't want an enlarged conflict, and that these two governments are endangering the Middle East by permitting the pass-through of these -- of the guerrillas and the use of their territory for striking.

He's also going to go up there and he's going to collect information from the governments because I'm sure he's been told by the Palestinians that they're not completely in charge of their own terrorist activities. And they're going to lay some of the blame on Hezbollah and Hamas and I'm sure that Yasser Arafat and his people are going to say we can't totally control them.

So, Colin Powell's also going to get information from this government, so it's going to be a complicated dialogue. And I think what's really behind this is not the concern so much for Israel and Israel's security as it is the fact that this is really impacting wider U.S. interests. Problems in the Middle East, an expansion of this war would even more grievously impact on U.S. strategies for moving ahead in the war on terrorism.

HEMMER: No doubt it clearly concerns him. Does it concern you, too, as well?

CLARK: I think there's no doubt about it. The fighting in the Middle East is a -- it's a hurdle that the United States has to cross. The Bush administration hoped that it wouldn't have to cross this hurdle -- it tried to downplay it, and not get engaged, so it couldn't be held responsible for the ongoing fighting there. But that strategy hasn't worked. Now the United States is engaged, and the United States is being increasingly held accountable by our Arab friends and by the Europeans for doing something to moderate the fighting.

But, Bill, the problem is this: both sides are fighting. Each with the weapons that are the most capable for them. And both sides will expect to have gained something from this fight. And so, as the White House looks at the prospects of a broader Middle East peace settlement, then it has to recognize that already the sides are seeking incompatible objectives out of this, so it's quite a dilemma.

And I think the approach of downplaying expectations, continuing the dialogue, and trying to bring in stronger and stronger support from Arab countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt to influence the Palestinians, is the right approach. In the meantime, this fighting is going to go on.

HEMMER: Right. General, just about 45 seconds left here. Focusing specifically on Colin Powell for me -- you've been watching from afar, certainly keeping abreast of everything that's happening here. At this point, what is the best hope for success for his mission right now?

CLARK: Well, it's possible that he may achieve some symbolic breakthrough like a resolution of the fighting around Bethlehem. But I think it'd be a mistake for us, as observers, to say that was a failure if he didn't achieve that.

The real success of the mission is that he's in there, he's in a dialogue, he is engaged and he's pulling out information and perspectives. And he is, by his presence in there, he's keeping the lid on a further escalation of the conflict and a further erosion of American interest.

And so I think the mission in itself has to be viewed as successful thus far. What comes from it remains to be seen. But as I think so many people have already indicated Bill, this is such a complex problem. What it has to be, it has to be worked from the outside in. We've got to build a group of people, a group of nations on the outside, in the Arab world, who really want to stop this fighting. And that's going to take time, it's going to take travel, and it may take more weeks of what we're seeing going on right now.

HEMMER: Yeah, thank you sir. Appreciate it. General Wesley Clark, our guest tonight in Washington. We'll talk again, perhaps tomorrow sir, thanks.

In a moment here, back to Bethlehem when Live from Jerusalem continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: The West Bank covers about 2,263 square miles. An area about the size of the US State of Delaware. It has a population of more than two million people.

HEMMER: Back here once again in Jerusalem. Earlier on Sunday the Israeli Supreme Court reached a decision on what to do with the bodies now lying dead in the Jenin refugee camp. The court says in an order earlier today that the Israeli Army can take jurisdiction.

Palestinians say as many as 500 died there. Israel says the number is a lot closer to 70. Today the court action says the Israeli Army will collect and identify the victims with the help of the Red Cross. The bodies then will be given to Palestinian families for burial.

If they're not done quickly though, the Army we are told will bury them according to the court. Palestinian officials have accused Israel of carrying on a massacre inside the camp and trying to cover it up by burying victims in unmarked graves.

Meanwhile from Bethlehem now. No end in sight to that standoff at the Church of Nativity. But on Sunday CNN's Sheila MacVicar went back to Bethlehem. What she found is a town that is still very desperate.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The sound of Bethlehem, Manger Square, early Sunday morning. For 14 days after the Israeli military went back into Bethlehem, 13 days after Palestinian gunmen, the Israeli military says 200 of them took over the church of the nativity, the people of Bethlehem have been under siege.

The city is a mess. No garbage has been picked up. Conditions are ripe for breeding disease. Food is rotting. It smells. The water system is damaged, and this family told us they had enough water left for only one day. When people do come out on the streets of this neighborhood of the Old City, it is because they must.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had to go out because we want bread, at least bread. We have nothing at our houses, nothing at all, without electricity or no water, nothing.

MACVICAR: All it takes to clear the ally is the brief sight of Israeli soldiers. In seconds, the ally is deserted, the shutters closed. Canon Andrew White, the Anglican Church's envoy, went to Bethlehem to see conditions there.

REVEREND CANON ANDREW WHITE, MIDEAST ENVOY OF ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: The humanitarian crisis is really quite enormous. We're hearing stories literally by the hour of people who are without food and water, without medicine.

MACVICAR: Bethlehem civilians are trapped, caught between the Israeli military and the Palestinian gunmen.

MACVICAR (on camera): The Israelis say their troops will not pull back from Bethlehem in spite of what is clearly a growing humanitarian crisis until they can end the siege at the Church of the Nativity, and so far there has been no way found to break that deadlock.

Meeting his cabinet on Sunday, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon laid out his offer to break the siege. The Palestinian gunmen in the church could either accept permanent exile, he said, or stand trial in an Israeli court.

Palestinian officials says in spite of the price their people are paying, those choices are unacceptable. There is no sign the resolve of any of those holed up in the church is breaking. Canon White sees every day to the clerics trapped inside.

WHITE: There's a very serious health hazard in there and we also know there's a huge number of weapons in there as well. So, all in all you have a humanitarian crisis, but you also have potentially almost an apocalyptic crisis waiting to take place within there.

MACVICAR: Walking in Bethlehem, you feel the clock ticking, a people under siege, a standoff with gunmen the Israelis say are terrorists, and not a solution in sight. Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Bethlehem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: In a moment from Bethlehem, back to Ramallah. That's where Secretary Powell was there earlier on Sunday. From busting city to war zone, the reporters who got a look see today. Back in a moment with that, and Michael Holmes again in the West Bank.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: When Colin Powell went to Ramallah to visit the Palestinian Chairman Yasser Arafat earlier on Sunday morning, what he found there was a city essentially under siege. Michael Holmes has been there from the beginning, 17 days ago when the tanks and the troops rolled in. Tonight Michael has a look for us on the town today, after the siege.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Colin Powell arrived at a cleaned up Palestinian Authority headquarters. Crushed cars and debris that were there yesterday gone today. Same for tanks, APCs and armored vehicles, the car park, a car park once more, the armor patrolling outside instead of inside the compound.

As the meeting got underway, international activists, there are many here, looked around the corner but got no further. About a dozen of these activists have made the trip here by foot, about 30 of their compatriots are inside the compound with Yasser Arafat. This is as far as they'll get however.

You can see Israeli troops and border police behind, have stopped their path. They're about 200 meters from the perimeter wall. You can see the compound in the background. They'll get no further and neither will we.

The city Colin Powell drove through is a world way from Jerusalem, although it's barely ten miles drive. A little more than two weeks ago, Ramallah was the thriving home to almost 50,000 people, a substantial middle-class bustling streets and stores, cultural centers and schools, a community.

Israel says what also thrived in Ramallah was a terrorist infrastructure directed by Yasser Arafat. The 50,000 people are still here behind closed doors under curfew. Their community, they say, is not. Much here has been destroyed or damaged from private homes to cultural centers, local government offices, to police stations, all necessary, says Israel, in its hunt for terrorists.

We drove a mile from Arafat's compound to the home of Ghassam Khatib, a university professor.

GHASSAM KHATIB: The streets, the institutions, the services, anything you can think of is completely different than before.

HOLMES: Forget for a moment the politics of Ramallah, the Palestinian Authority headquarters. Forget too the security headquarters, partially built with American money. Legitimate targets, says Israel, in its war on terror. Look instead, say people like Ghassam Khatib, at the damage to the things that keep a city running.

KHATIB: When they steal for example all the computers from the education ministry and damage all the structures, especially the computers of the statistical bureau of the Palestinian Authority. They are creating damage that is irreversible.

HOLMES: When the territories were meant to switch to summertime earlier this month, the clocks didn't change. There was no functioning government to issue the order. One senior Palestinian official said of the damaged infrastructure, Yasser Arafat doesn't have the power to flush the toilet, let alone run a government.

There were armed Palestinians here in the first days, no doubt. We saw them, filmed their battles with Israeli soldiers, but in the past couple of weeks, say locals, door-to-door searches may have damaged the tangible, but hardened the psyche of the people.

KHATIB: Instead of the pretended objective of this operation, which is stopping the Israeli violence, they are creating the right atmosphere and the right psychology for an increase in the Palestinian resistance to the Israeli occupation.

HOLMES: Michael Holmes, CNN, Ramallah.

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HEMMER: From Ramallah now back here in Jerusalem, and we have talked about and seen cases and evidence of just taking a bus, how difficult and risky that can be for many Israeli's. We saw it on Friday when a suicide bomber walked up to a bus stop. And then again last Wednesday morning in the Northern coastal town of Haifa. Tonight, John Vause has a look at the risk of riding a bus in Israel.

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JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Take a ticket and take your chances. It's a way of life for the one million Israelis who catch a state subsidized bus every day. There's standing room only on Bus #6, the same bus route where two days earlier a suicide bomber was stopped in a doorway, exploded herself and killed six people, injuring dozens of others.

For the passengers on #6, this latest attack has simply added to their already substantial fear. Like Ehuva (ph), she doesn't own a car, can't afford taxis, the bus is her only choice. Twice a day now, she passes the stop outside the city's main market where the suicide bomber tried to board.

It's a quiet anxious ride. Few people talk or smile because they know last Friday, it could have been them. Are you nervous?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am nervous.

VAUSE: Two times a day, Sheila McSlotkey (ph) takes the bus. She prays to God she'll survive the journey.

There have been ten suicide bombings on busses since the start of the intifada, but authorities believe many more have been stopped by bus drivers, who can refuse to pick up passengers who look suspicious. In 23 year, Cion Lacouney (ph) has never been attacked. He says he knows what to look for.

"There are people who are suspicious. If they get on on a hot day like today and they're wearing a jacket or a big coat, I check it out. I don't have a choice" he says.

(on camera): There really is nothing routine about catching a bus in Israel. Many of the passengers say it's a bit like a game of Russian roulette, because they say there's always a chance that the next person who tries to get on could be a suicide bomber. (voice over): For Israelis, random choices and events can mean being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It can often mean life or death. John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

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ANNOUNCER: Since March 5, there have been 12 terrorist acts in Israel, killing at least 85 people.

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ANNOUNCER: In 2000, almost 2.7 million tourists visited Israel. Of that, roughly six of every ten visitors came from Europe, and two of every ten came from the United States.

HEMMER: So little land here in the Middle East and so many wars over time. In fact, in 1967 the Six Day War did not even last a week, but as Gary Tuchman now explains, that war that lasted only six days helped lay the foundation for a lot of the arguments we still find today.

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GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It only last six days in June of 1967, but its ramifications have loomed large every day since. Arab forces of Egypt, Syria and Jordan massed on Israel's borders in preparation for an all-out attack. Fearing Israel would be destroyed, the Jewish state attacked first, targeting Arab airfields, destroying the Egyptian air force on the Sinai Peninsula.

The ground war began shortly after. After the first day, the Egyptian military was largely routed. By the third day, Israel reached the eastern bank of the Suez Canal. By the fourth day, Israel was in a position to head into Egypt's capital, Cairo, something it chose not to do.

PROF. KENNETH STEIN, EMORY UNIVERSITY: By the time you get to June 10 and June 11, the Israeli's have lost about 600 or 700 people in fighting. The Arabs lost 25,000.

TUCHMAN: The war had been fought on numerous fronts. The battle against Syria was the last battle of Israel's victorious Six-Day War. The Jewish stated had taken control of Syria's Golan Heights, Egypt's Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip, and Jordan's West Bank, which included the entire city of Jerusalem.

STEIN: Israel felt because it has won this war that the phone was going to ring, that the Arabs were going to call and say, OK, let's make piece. But no one called.

TUCHMAN: The land Israel occupied in 1967 soon became the basis for an entire diplomatic concept, land for peace. The philosophy at the heart of the Camp David and the Oslo Accords.

(on camera): But it still hasn't brought security to the Israelis, or a state to the Palestinians. Gary Tuchman, CNN.

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HEMMER: Only six short years later, they would go back at it again in 1973 -- known as the Yom Kippur War here in Israel.

In a moment back to Jerusalem, a final thought on the day's events and more on what we except on Monday with Secretary Powell. Back in a moment.

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HEMMER: And so another day passes here in the Middle East. At a very minimum, Secretary Powell is working quite hard. On Sunday it was Ramallah, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. On Monday, it's Beirut and Damascus.

For the Israelis, not a single explosion in all of Israel on Sunday, that's two days in a row now. But for the Palestinians still no firm date set for when the Israeli military incursions will end. There is possibilities now that they're making progress behind closed doors. But if they are making progress, it's pretty much a secret to this point.

Hope springs eternal though here in the Holy Land. Thanks for watching tonight. I'm Bill Hemmer. We'll see you again in about two hours' time once again live from Jerusalem. Have a good Sunday evening. So long now.

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