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Jerusalem: Clock Ticks Away for Colin Powell; Standoff in Bethlehem Continues
Aired April 16, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: From the outset, the White House did not expect much and at this point, it does not appear to be getting much right now in this current mission for peace. Colin Powell starts the long trip home tomorrow, but only after a final handful of meetings. Tonight, we'll explore the possibilities for a breakthrough.
ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM: POWELL'S PUSH FOR PEACE. The clock is ticking for Colin Powell,
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think we're making progress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: After a one-on-one with Ariel Sharon, the secretary of state gets ready for another round with Yasser Arafat. The battle for Bethlehem, as the standoff goes on. Heavy shooting lights up the night sky outside the Church of the Nativity. Inside the eye of a storm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): What we saw there was devastation. Many houses knocked down. A whole neighborhood that we ran into had been bulldozed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: CNN reporters get two different first-hand views of the battle at the Jenin refugee camp.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on- camera): This camp, say the Israelis, was the heart of the Palestinian terror infrastructure and the civilians who lived here, the women and children, they say, were used as shields.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Fifty-four years after Israel won its battle for independence, the fight goes on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After more than a half century of independence days, Israel remains in a state of war, a conflict that threatens to explode yet again if the latest peace efforts fail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM: POWELL'S PUSH FOR PEACE. Now here's Bill Hemmer.
HEMMER: Hello, again from Jerusalem and good evening. The mission for Colin Powell does continue, but as one Israeli source told me tonight, you will take small victories here when you can get them. He says, at this point, at least ideas are being talked about. He also says after that mission to Damascus, Syria, featuring Colin Powell, right now Hezbollah is pulling back in southern Lebanon. Once again, small victories and that's the way you take them here in the Middle East.
Let's get to our headlines tonight as we begin our program once again on the mission for peace. Secretary of State Colin Powell had a meeting earlier today with Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon. The talked for about an hour, yet though, there does not appear to be much headway. All eyes again tomorrow now on Ramallah and the meeting there with Chairman Yasser Arafat.
Outside one of the holiest sites in Christianity, more gunfire and smoke again tonight. It is not clear exactly what's been taking place outside the Church of the Nativity. Israeli troops say they are determined though to wait out dozens of Palestinians holed up inside.
The smoke has long since cleared from Jenin, scene of the fiercest West Bank battle. Aid agencies and journalists now allowed inside that camp. Relief workers say the site there looks look an earthquake has struck.
Our top story though, in the final day begins on Wednesday, in fact, only a few hours time for Colin Powell. He'll go to Ramallah, later to Cairo, Egypt, before wrapping up his nine-day mission. Andrea Koppel right now on the chances for success on the final day.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Secretary Powell began his day sounding a somewhat optimistic note.
POWELL: I think we're making progress and look forward to furthering our progress over the next 24 hours.
KOPPEL: Not a lot of time to clear a number of big hurdles, the biggest, U.S. officials say, winning an agreement by Israel to offer a road map for a rapid and complete withdrawal from the West Bank. Palestinians argue that unless and until the occupation ends, it's unrealistic to expect Yasser Arafat, himself under siege in his Ramallah headquarters, to rein in militants.
POWELL: We're all going to have a good discussion in private.
KOPPEL: Despite Powell's prediction, during his third meet with Israel's prime minister this week, Ariel Sharon drew a line in the sand telling Powell Israel will likely withdraw from most of the West Bank in a week's time, but said there are two sticking points. Israel's siege at Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity won't end, Sharon vowed, until an estimated 30 Palestinian gunmen hiding inside surrender. Sharon also told Powell Israel's encirclement of Ramallah will continue until Arafat hands over a number of suspects wanted in last fall's murder of Israeli tourism minister, Rehavam Ze'evi, a point confirmed by prime minister Sharon during his interview with CNN.
ARIEL SHARON, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: If those terrorists will be handed over to us, we'll leave there.
KOPPEL: In fact, that's the goal. CNN has learned senior U.S. negotiators plan to work through the night to convince Arafat to hand over these suspects to Israel by the time he meets with Powell Wednesday. All eyes will be on this second round of talks, which U.S. officials view as a make or break meeting. The question -- will Arafat sign on to the equivalent of a cease-fire without a full Israeli withdrawal?
(on-camera): One senior official put it this way -- he said, one side has to sort of blink in order for there to be some progress before Secretary Powell heads back to Washington. And while no one had high expectations, he'd achieve a breakthrough during his swing through the region, what no one wants is a breakdown.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: So then on Wednesday, when the sun comes up in a few hours time, Colin Powell will take the road again back to Ramallah, only 10 miles north from our position here in Jerusalem. Nic Robertson now in the city under siege. Still no guarantee that Yasser Arafat and Secretary Powell will come to agreement on anything. Here's Nic tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): A curfew is still in place in Ramallah. The streets have been very quiet throughout the day, deserted overnight. There have been patrols throughout the day by the Israeli Army and APCs and tanks.
Palestinian Authority advisers around Yasser Arafat say their expectations of a positive outcome of their meeting with Colin Powell Wednesday are low. They say the best that they believe they can hope for at this time is that any statements that the United States may make will contain strong wording. The wording they hope it will contain will again reiterate United States' previously stated position that Ariel Sharon should tell the Israeli Army to withdraw immediately from the towns in the West Bank.
Now, Palestinian advisers also say they hope that there will be some economic aid perhaps talked about in that statement. They hope that there will be some offers perhaps to help with the rebuilding of areas like Jenin and other towns affected in the recent weeks and months.
Also, they say they believe that the meetings with Colin Powell, that Yasser Arafat has had, will have helped break his isolation. And if there is anything positive that they can take away from these meetings, despite the fact there's been no positive steps toward a peace agreement is that this in some way helped re-rehabilitate Yasser Arafat and put him - and remove him from the isolation that he's been under for the last number of months.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Ramallah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Back to Washington now at the White House and Major Garrett where the president has been keeping close tabs certainly on this trip.
And Major, from the beginning, the White House didn't expect much. Some may consider that spin, but it appears at this point anyway that the outcome of this mission is going to match the expectations from the outset.
Good evening to you.
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Bill and you're right, the White House did its level best before Secretary of State Powell even left Washington to minimize expectations, although they made it very clear one of the hoped-for outcomes of the secretary of state's visit would be a cease-fire and at least a reduction in violence and quite possibly an Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories.
Bill, let's deal with the expectations in a second. I want to give you some late-breaking news here from the White House and it really fits in with a broader context, the Bush administration policy right now in the Middle East. The White House has just released a statement saying that President Bush has yet again waived provisions of a 1987 antiterrorism law that forbids any U.S. funding of the Palestine Liberation Organization. Those restrictions have been waived because the president says and has told Congress it is in the national security interest of the United States to waive these provisions and allow continued U.S. funding of the PLO and attended organizations.
Now, the context of this, Bill, I don't have to explain to you. The Israeli government has said Yasser Arafat and the attended Palestinian leadership has been at a minimum aiding and abetting acts of terrorism in Israel with this certification, with this waiver of a 1987 anti-terrorism law. The Bush administration is saying yet again, it is within the national security interest of the United States government to continue not only to send money to the Palestinian Organization, its leadership, but to continue to represent, on behalf of the U.S. government that it is not engaging actively in acts of terrorism and is still telling Congress that very message tonight - Bill.
HEMMER: Very interesting and important, Major. Let's look down the road though, once the secretary of state leaves this region tomorrow. You have the Crown Prince from Saudi Arabia in about a week's time going to be at the ranch in Crawford, Texas. And as much as the White House, about eight, 10 months ago, tried resist getting involved in the Middle East situation here, it appears now they're being sucked into this drain just like every other administration before it.
GARRETT: That's exactly right, Bill. I can remember sitting down with a senior administration official right when the Bush team came into the White House. This administration official you see on the Sunday talk shows all the time and giving lots of regular briefings. That official said, "This White House does not believe in the Middle East peace process for the sake of a Middle East peace process." The Bush White House simply was not going to elevate the process to such an importance than being involved in the process itself was justification of its own Middle East policy. No, it said, we're going to set broad goals and broad vision. This is the first White House to say there should emphatically be a Palestinian state, said so at the well of the United Nations, a very symbolic and policy important message from the Bush White House. But they didn't want to get bogged down in the day-to-day procedural talks leading to that eventual outcome.
Well, now that's exactly where they are. And now, at the Bush White House, you hear terms like "we're muddling through, we're gaining ground a centimeter at a the time." Bill, that's exactly what we heard the Clinton administration say when I covered the Clinton White House, "muddling through a centimeter at a time, incremental progress," all the same slogans that have affected so many other previous White Houses, trying to resolve the situation in the Middle East, all the same verbiage now being spoken, albeit very reluctantly by senior officials here at the Bush White House.
HEMMER: Indeed, you're right there. Major, thanks. All too familiar and again, the violence continues here on the ground. Major Garrett from the Front Lawn of the White House this evening. Thank you, Major.
Just about six miles from our location, the town of Bethlehem keeping a close eye on the violence and the tense situation that we witnessed earlier tonight. Look at this videotape from Manger Square earlier.
That was at dusk earlier tonight when gunfire heard outside the Church of the Nativity continued in the darkness. Inside, 200 Palestinians, including a few dozen who Israel says are terrorists. Israeli forces still occupy the town, though, and they've not entered the church. They say they're also not attacking it. Palestinian security sources, however, say Israeli soldiers had thrown what appeared to be tear gas grenades inside. They say for a while, a fire did erupt.
That situation, as I mentioned, still tense in the town of Bethlehem.
Also, in the West Bank town of Jenin, the site of the fiercest fighting we saw throughout this entire battle, journalists have been restricted, flat-out forbidden for days, but earlier on Tuesday, CNN's Sheila MacVicar went inside with the Israeli military. From the town of Jenin tonight, what she saw and the destruction in a two-block area.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MACVICAR (voice-over): Before the Israeli forces invaded two weeks ago, this was the crowded center of Jenin refugee camp. There were apartment houses on twisting narrow streets, bustling and busy. That neighborhood is now gone, erased by Israeli bulldozers, turned into a river of concrete and twisted steel, spreading over two city blocks. Everywhere, there is evidence of life interrupted.
The Israeli military say this was the scene of some of the fiercest fighting and not a neighborhood, they say, but a fortress.
(on-camera): This camp, say the Israelis, was the heart of the Palestinian terror infrastructure and the civilians who lived here, the women and children, they say, were used as shields.
UNIDENTIFIED SOLDIER: You can see another explosive site over here, and another one over there and another one over there.
MACVICAR: On Tuesday, the Israelis military took journalists to the camp to show what they say is evidence of a highly prepared terrorist fighting force. Over and over, they denied Palestinian allegations there had been a massacre here. They say they evacuated civilians. They now claim Israel's military was held off by only 200 Palestinian fighters.
MAJ. RAFI LADERMAR, ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES: We have apprehended a 150 of them, and we estimate that the amount of people that killed totally in the camp were -- are about 50, let's say, to be a bit more accurate, a few dozens of people.
MACVICAR: That is a far cry from Israeli defense forces last week that about 200 Palestinians had died. After a ruling by Israel's high court, the military was required to permit international medical teams to supervise the recovery of the bodies, to try to provide some answers. How many bodies, how many fighters, how many civilians, no one yet knows. No one even knows how many might be missing.
Only a few hundred of the camp's surviving inhabitants are still in their own homes. The rest are scattered and have not yet been counted. It is mostly women and children who are left, some of them wandered the camp weeping, crying for lost brothers and sons. And they point to that mountain of rubble and say that is where they lie.
Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Jenin refugee camp.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: From the town of Jenin, now, we do know from the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in his interview yesterday that Israeli troops are expected out of Jenin and out of Nablus, along with other areas within a week's time. About 24 hours ago, they went back into Tulkarem. Within a few hours' time, they made four arrests in that town. Israeli forces identified the suspects as Hamas activists and said one of them was involved in the bombing of that hotel in Netanya back on Passover evening. Twenty-eight people died in that attack there.
Israeli forces did enter suburbs of east Jerusalem earlier this morning. Military sources telling CNN they went into two neighborhoods due to reports, they say, that terror attacks were going to be launched from that area. Soldiers could be seen on the streets questioning Palestinians and searching homes as well there.
We are back with more in a moment.
ANNOUNCER: Next, he's the man in the spotlight, but is he a terrorist or a revolutionary?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): For most Palestinians, Marwan Barghouti, especially now that he's been arrested is a grass root symbol of their current struggle for their independence. For many Israelis over the last 18 months, he's come to represent a grass root symbol of the Palestinian drive to destroy their independence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Who is Marwan Barghouti, when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Marwan Barghouti is a leader of the Fatah Movement. Yasser Arafat founded the group in the early 1960s. The word "fatah" means "conquest by means of jihad or Islamic holy war."
HEMMER: One of the most talked about stories in the entire region today surrounded Marwan Barghouti, picked up yesterday morning in Ramallah. Israelis say they have a man right now quite proud to let people know they have him. In fact, they released still photos earlier today, then later, a video release also of him in Israeli custody. But who is Marwan Barghouti? Jerrold Kessel tonight and what the man means to both sides.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KESSEL (voice-over): The moment Marwan Barghouti surrendered to Israeli troops, the man Israelis once believed to be a genuine peace partner, perhaps even a successor to Yasser Arafat, now, the man who became their enemy number one is in their hands. Jerusalem police headquarters where Barghouti was first held after his capture, he's since been taken elsewhere for further interrogation by Israeli security, leaving behind a volatile argument over what he was, what he represents and how this might affect Palestinian/Israeli relations now and into the future.
EHUD YA'ARI, ISRAELI ANALYST: He was the idealog of the intifada and he was the chief of operations of what is known today as the Brigade of The Martyrs of Al Aqsa, which is the terrorist branch of Fatah, Arafat's organization. He was number one.
KESSEL (on-camera): The dramatic moment of Marwan Barghouti's arrest is being trumpeted in Israeli newspapers. The crowning moment, they see it, in Ariel Sharon's antiterror sweep.
(voice-over): Also called into police headquarters, Sari Nusseibeh, the Palestinian's man in Jerusalem, a close associate of Barghouti, but he tells us only for a warning that he shouldn't hold demonstrations without a permit.
SARI NUSSEIBEH, JERUSALEM PLO REP.: It's trying to hit at the national movement of the Palestinian people and the national movement of the Palestinian people is the party that the Israelis will have to come to terms with to recognize and negotiate with. And so, I think it's a very unfortunate move on Sharon's part, but it's part of his policy.
He fantasizes about the kind of peace that he can get by somehow assuming or imagining that he can reach peace with goals or peace with, I don't know, models of Palestinians or to his liking.
KESSEL: The shape of Barghouti's career certainly mirrors the rise and collapse of peace hopes between the two peoples and the possibility that the conflict will now deepen.
(on-camera): Israelis are now marking their independence day. For most Palestinians, Marwan Barghouti, especially now that he's been arrested is a grass root symbol of their current struggle for their independence. For many Israelis over the last 18 months, he's come to represent a grassroots symbol of the Palestinian drive to destroy their independence.
(voice-over): Marwan Barghouti helped coordinate the first Palestinian intifada uprising from exile where he was sent after serving six years in Israeli jails for already then challenging the occupation. He returned with Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority to play an important role in consolidating public backing for peace. In jail, he'd learned fluent Hebrew and he became close associate of many Israeli politicians. Here, he's seen visiting the Knesset and he became, also, a keen visitor of how Israel works, how it was grappling with the Palestinian challenge.
But once peace collapsed, Barghouti was an ardent backer, a major instigator, it said, of the second intifada, not only galvanizing demonstrations and protests, but publicly advocating attacks on Israeli soldiers and settlers in the West Bank and Gaza. He'd nod publicly aspires, attacking civilians within Israel, but Israel said he did cross that line as head of fatah-aligned militias, which have been lately been responsible for some of the most devastating terror attacks and suicide bombings. He denies that charge.
As an elected member of the Palestinian parliament, he was seen by Palestinians as essentially a political figure.
NUSSEIBEH: It really hits at the belly of the Palestinian mainstream, in the intifada. This is the mainstream that's been supportive of the peace process, Marwan, in particular. I know for a fact, myself, has always in the past been a supporter, a strong supporter of the peace process.
YA'ARI: You cannot really separate a man like Mr. Barghouti and his boss. Marwan is one of the many faces of Chairman Arafat. When Arafat's game was peace of the braves, Oslo, let's try and strike a deal, Marwan was for it. When Arafat changed, he represented violence and terrorism. That was his record. He was the chief of operations for Arafat and his terrorist offensive. You don't want to have this guy as your partner.
KESSEL: Neither him nor his boss, Yasser Arafat, that's the prevailing view of Ariel Sharon and soon the Israeli leader hopes also to be the U.S. view.
Jerrold Kessel, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Next, it was Ground Zero for a bloody battle. We'll go back inside the Jenin refugee camp for a look at the destruction.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: For more on the crisis in the Middle East, head to CNN.com and while there, check out our special in-depth report "Mid East: Centuries of Conflict." The AOL keyword is CNN.
HEMMER: Welcome back to Jerusalem. Again, as we come up on the half hour, let's check the top stories again right now that we're monitoring. Colin Powell, the secretary of state, just a few short hours away now from yet another crucial and critical meeting. He'll go back to Ramallah and sit down with Palestinian Chairman Yasser Arafat. And in that meeting, the secretary of state will try again to talk Arafat into committing to a cease-fire. Arafat so far has refused to budge on that matter, saying Israel must first withdraw its troops from the West Bank.
Also, earlier on Tuesday, Powell met with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for a third time, trying to break the impasse on that side. He said progress was made, but was unable to get Mr. Sharon to commit to a firm timetable for full troop withdrawal.
Earlier in our broadcast tonight we brought you pictures from inside the Jenin refugee camp. Sheila MacVicar was there. She went in with the Israeli military. They were her escort today. But another crew, CNN's Rula Amin went in without escort. Here is what Rula found today inside that camp.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMIN (on-camera): For the first time, after seven days of trying, today we were able to get into Jenin refugee camp without any escort. After we snuck in without -- going around Israeli tanks, what we saw there was devastation. Many houses knocked down. A whole neighborhood that we ran into had been bulldozed. Most of the houses we saw in that neighborhood were either bulldozed flat to the ground or have been badly damaged.
We also saw residents of the camp coming back from nearby areas to check their homes. Some of them were looking for their -- members of their families, sons, daughters, parents, they had lost touch with and they were looking for them. The people we saw are telling there were telling us that there are still many people buried under the rumble and nobody has been able to retrieve those bodies.
We, ourselves, when we went into one room, in one house with -- a woman told us that she was going to show us something inside her house. We went in and we saw five bodies there. Obviously, they had been dead for a few days. Their bodies were black. You can see flies and it was very - the smell was really, really strong. Many of those who were with us had to cover their face as not to smell it. One journalist almost fainted when he had smell that very - smell of death.
It's very hard to verify what had happened inside camp. We can only report what the eyewitnesses had been telling us and what the army had been telling us, but we can confirm today, after we saw it with our own eyes, there is a lot of devastation in that camp. The United Nations estimates that about 3,000 residents of Jenin refugee camps are now homeless.
United Nations agencies and the Red Cross have been able to get inside the camp for the second day in a row. They've been trying to bring in supplies, 40 tons of food. Also, they are trying to help with identifying the bodies and retrieving them, but they say it's a very difficult job. They are still working on it.
Rula Amin, CNN, near Jenin refugee camp.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Jenin certainly has been a flashpoint and it is something that comes up in nearly every conversation among journalists here throughout the region. Ultimately though, how will this area of the world work toward a meaningful cease-fire and eventually some sort of peace agreement?
Robert Malley probably knows about as much about this as anybody. Back in Washington, D.C. he served as an assistant to then President Bill Clinton, also during the Camp David talks in the summer, 2000. I appreciate your time tonight, sir. Good to see you.
ROBERT MALLEY, FORMER MIDEAST ADVISER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON: Good night, Bill.
HEMMER: I know you were in the region just about a week ago. You were in Jordan. You were also in Lebanon. When people come here, they talk about the true hatred they sense between these two sides right now. Curious to know, did you get that sense while you were here, and how would you contrast that to the summer of 2000, before the intifada began?
MALLEY: Well, I think the main difference, Lebanon and Jordan has less to do with their feelings toward Israel than their feelings towards the United States, and it's hard to describe the depth of the hostility, the sense of U.S. complicity, the sense of the United States may have given a green light to Ariel Sharon, and I think that's really the main difference over the last few months.
Clearly, there's hostility to Israel, and that too is much greater than it was a year ago, but again it has now spilled over into hostility towards the United States, which is a very, very big difference.
HEMMER: Take us back to December, 2000. Many Israelis tell me that they believe at that time Ehud Barak passed that test, and Yasser Arafat failed it. You were there. Is that an accurate way to interpret it?
MALLEY: I think any simplistic interpretation, whether it's attributing fault to one side or to the other is bound to be wrong. Clearly, this was a summit that Ehud Barak wanted.
It's a summit that he pressed the United States to have, and it unfolded according to his plan and his wishes, and yes, it did go very far, further than any Israeli Prime Minister has gone, but it's not as if the Palestinians simply sat there passively. I don't think that they were up to the test, but I don't think that the Israelis played it flawlessly, nor did I think the United States did.
I think there was an opportunity there, but all sides made clear mistakes. It's not a summit that the Palestinians wanted. It was not on their timetable. It's not the way they wanted it to proceed and therefore they did not deal with it in as constructive a way as they otherwise would have.
HEMMER: Take us forward a little bit, Robert. I know you don't believe in incremental peace agreements, and incremental peace I think is the phrase that's used. You believe it's an all or nothing proposition. Tell us why.
MALLEY: I think at this point, first of all I think experience has taught us if we haven't learned since Oslo that incremental steps, the notion that Israel would withdraw step-by-step from some of the territory and the Palestinians would little by little show that they are prepared to live in peace with Israel, that's failed. It's failed since Oslo and I think that's pretty clear and one has to accept that conclusion. Now the reason it's failed is because when neither side knows what the end point is going to be, they're not prepared to take the incremental step in good faith and to do it absolutely in a spirit of peace, because they don't know where the end point is going to be.
So Israel has been very reluctant to withdraw from territory, feeling that it was giving up something very tangible and concrete, and the Palestinians have been very reluctant to disarm their militias, to confiscate illegal weapons, to clamp down on radical groups, because they too are waiting to see what the end game was going to be, which is why I think that only by putting that end game up front are you going to be able to get to the core of this problem, rather than simply replicate it every step of the way with every step you take.
HEMMER: Excellent point. Just about 15 seconds left, a tall order for you. What did you learn most in the summer of 2000 that failed in the talks?
MALLEY: I think the two lessons would seem paradoxical, but I think they both are true. Number one, that an agreement was relatively close. Number two, that if you leave the two sides to negotiate it, they can't achieve it. They'll get pretty close, but those final agreements they have to reach, they can't do it.
They can't do it on their own. An outside party has to come and do it for them, and I think those two things are true. They could do it but not on their own, only if the United States, in this case I think, has to step in and put its plan on the table.
HEMMER: Thank you, Robert. We're out of time. Robert Malley from his home in Washington, D.C., must appreciate your thoughts tonight. Our coverage continues LIVE FROM JERUSALEM in a moment here.
ANNOUNCER: Next, as Israel celebrates its 54th year of independence, emotions of joy on one side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KALMAN PERK, ISRAELI VETERAN: Excitement, excitement and excitement and excitement at the sheer joy that we're getting our state, our place and all the Jewish people will be free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: And warning on the other.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAHMOUD MAHAREB: It is a day of mourning for the Palestinians, who are citizens of the State of Israel, because Israel was established under rules of the Palestinian people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The passion and the hatred, when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This year, Israeli Independence Day is observed on Wednesday, April 17th, but Israel gained independence on May 14th, 1948. Sounds confusing. Here's why. Independence Day commemorations rarely take place on the same day each year because the holiday is celebrated according to the Jewish calendar.
HEMMER: And here is the scene earlier tonight in central Jerusalem, fireworks to celebrate year number 54. But ever since the first birthday here in Israel, the country seems to be in a constant state of way. Once again, it finds itself in battle, locked up once again. Earlier today, a veteran of Israel's war talked to Chris Burns about his hopes for a lasting peace.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT(voice over): Kalman Perk, a Lithuanian Jew survived the Holocaust when his father pushed him out of a cattle car rolling toward a Nazi death camp.
"You will be a mensch (ph)" were the last words he heard from his father, exterminated along with scores of other relatives. Perk, the teenager, set himself on a mission, to help found the State of Israel. He joined the Zionist military group Lehi (ph) and when Israel declared statehood in 1948, Perk joined the country's fledgling army.
Sergeant Perk's platoon fought to the walls of Jerusalem's Old City before an Arab fighter shot him in the lung. Perk still looks back at a glorious time.
PERK: Excitement. Excitement. Excitement and excitement. The sheer joy of getting our state, our place and all the Jewish people will be free.
BURNS: On the Arab side, Israel's independence is called Al Nahba (ph) the catastrophe. Mahmoud Mahareb is an Israeli Arab political science professor.
MAHAREB: It is a day of mourning for the Palestinians who are citizens of the State of Israel, because Israel was established on the ruins of the Palestinian people.
BURNS: The 1948 war sowed the seeds of future conflicts. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees grew into the millions, yearning for a state that never materialized after decades of warfare, uprisings and peace efforts.
The sirens sound in honor of Israelis who died in battle, in suicide bombings and other attacks on civilians. To some Israelis, there's little difference between the war of 1948 and the conflict now. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, because we're fighting now about to be here.
BURNS: Fighting for Israel's survival, Kalman Perk doesn't think so. His main concern is that the current conflict is only prolonging the suffering among Israelis and Palestinians. "The only answer" he says, "is land for peace."
PERK: No question about it. There has to be a political solution and the sooner this will come, many people, many lives will be saved on both sides.
BURNS: On Holocaust Day, Perk lit a torch marking the cataclysm that drove him and others to found Israel. On Independence Day, the fireworks marked yet another year of Israel's complicated existence.
BURNS (on camera): After more than a half century of Independence Days, Israel remains in a state of war, a conflict that threatens to explode yet again if the latest peace efforts fail. Chris Burns, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Next, a message from Baghdad on cutting off oil to the U.S.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENERAL AMIR RASHEED, IRAQI OIL MINISTER: We hope it will give the right signal to the American administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Bill goes one-on-one in a rare interview with Iraq's Oil Minister when we return.
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ANNOUNCER: Iraq has the second largest proven oil reserves in the world, behind Saudi Arabia. American is Iraq's biggest customer. Last year, the U.S. imported up to one million barrels a day of Iraqi oil.
HEMMER: About a week ago, Iraq announced that it was cutting off oil exports for about 30 days' time. It said it was a measure to try and hurt the U.S. economy for its support right now of Israel.
At this point, the impact has been minimal and no other OPEC nation has stepped behind Iraq and supported it and followed in the same way. With that as a backdrop, earlier today I talked with Iraq's Oil Minister about whether or not the strategy to this point has failed.
RASHEED: Absolutely not, Bill, because we have taken into account in the planning of such a strategy, as you call it, the possibility that OPEC countries, Arab and Muslim countries will not follow suit. But we have also taken into account, I think, two important elements.
One, that no OPEC country will dare to increase production, because they know that it would be a direct blow to the struggle of the Palestinian people who are part of the Arab nation and Muslim countries against occupation.
This has happened according to our planning. Second, we know that the majority, as you have said, Bill, the majority of our exports, 60, 70 percent go to the United States. It is $1.2 to $1.3 million, depending on the season, and this takes something like 40 days to arrive at the United States coast.
So you will not see the impact immediately. Anyway, it is not our objective to...
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: The oil for food programs set up the U.N. though was designed specifically to help the Iraqi people get things like food and medicine. In effect, though, when the spigots are turned off coming out of Baghdad and the rest of Iraq, is it the Iraqi people who continue to suffer even more as a result?
RASHEED: Absolutely not. If you allow me, the objective of that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) strategy is to help our people in Palestine. We consider ourselves as all Arab countries are part of one nation. So when there is suffering and there are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and atrocities being committed against our people in Palestine, activity is being committed against us.
So when we support them, we are supporting ourselves. That's why we say and all Arab countries, if you have seen the Arab Summit in Beirut two weeks ago, it all supports Palestine as part of the Arab Nation. So we don't feel this is sacrifice.
This is the minimum support we can give to put pressure on the American administration to review and possibly change its policy in full support and collusion with the Israeli entity and Palestine against our people in Palestine.
So it is, I think, very clear we might be suffering temporarily but in the long term, we will be victorious and will be in the benefit of the Iraqi people for sure.
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HEMMER: So you're saying you're willing to go ahead and take this sacrifice, you say, even if it's at the expense of your own Iraqi people there. That's what I take from your answer there. And secondly, are you willing to extend this past the initial 30 days.
RASHEED: Yes. Yes. But I ask you, suppose you are one of the states in the United States being subjected to atrocities and genocide and massacre. Will you consider the other states not coming to the help of that state? This is how we feel about Palestine exactly. So like America when it will all raise to help one of the states when it is subjected to any occupation.
Anyway, let us get to your question. Your question after one month what we will do? We will consider. Our objective is immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces from occupied territories. If this comes in one week time, we will immediately come back to re-export normally. This was clear in the leadership decision.
However, if no such action is taken during one month, then the leadership decision, we will reconsider after one month what action we should take, taking into account, of course, all elements of the situation.
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HEMMER: General Rasheed from Baghdad earlier today here on CNN. Certainly there is the issue of weapons inspectors. That is still out there. The U.N. set to take up that issue sometime very soon.
In a moment when our coverage continues, how do Americans feel right now about the Israelis and the Palestinians? Bill Schneider takes the pulse when our coverage continues.
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HEMMER: We mentioned earlier that Israel is celebrating its 54th year of independence today, and ever since the very beginning of this country, Israel has enjoyed strong support, not only from the U.S. government, but also from the U.S. people. But how does America feel today? Bill Schneider now gauges sympathy in 2002 for the country of Israel.
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WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): The Middle East conflict has gone on longer than the Cold War. During the Cold War, American public opinion remained steadfast in its opposition to the Soviet Union. Have American public sympathies been just as steadfast in the Middle East? Here's what we know.
(voice over): In 1948, a few years after the Holocaust, the United States was the first country to recognize the new State of Israel, which immediately had to fight for its independence. Where did the American public's sympathies lie? Thirty-six percent said they sympathized with "the Jews," compared with 14 percent who said "the Arabs." That left half the American public indifferent to the conflict.
That was the story for almost 20 years, Americans were more sympathetic to Israel, but largely indifferent. As a result, when the U.S. opposed Israel in the Suez crisis of October 1956, President Eisenhower faced little public backlash.
A month later, Ike won reelection by a landslide, which included record high Jewish support. In those days, many American Jews were neutral toward Israel. They were sensitive to the charge of dual loyalties. As late at 1964, only 25 percent of Americans said they sympathized with Israel, and seven percent with the Arabs. Still, two-thirds took neither side.
Everything changed after the 1967 six-day war. Here was tiny Israel bold and triumphant, while the U.S. super power was mired down in Vietnam. Public support for Israel nearly doubled. In the years after the six-day war, a large plurality and often the majority of Americans has expressed support for Israel over the Arabs in poll after poll, which suggests that the American public support for Israel is not based on sympathy for persecuted Jews or pity for victims of the Holocaust. It's based on admiration for Israel's success and determination. Americans like winners.
Besides, after 1967, the Soviet Union turned against Israel, accusing it of imperialist policies. The Middle East became part of the Cold War, and Americans rallied to Israel's support. After Palestinian terrorists murdered Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics, American sympathy for Israel became even more pronounced.
And now, half of Americans say they sympathize with Israel in the current conflict, compared with 15 percent who sympathize with the Palestinians, still strong. But sympathy for Israel has to contend with another powerful impulse in American public opinion, the desire to stay out of conflicts far from home.
When asked which side the U.S. should take in the current conflict, a resounding 71 percent of Americans say neither side. Americans may sympathize with Israel, but they don't want to get involved in its war.
SCHNEIDER (on camera): The United States plays two roles in the Middle East, ardent supporter of Israel, and honest broker between the two sides. It's hard to balance those two roles, but both of them have strong support in U.S. public opinion. Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.
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HEMMER: Thank you, Bill. In a moment here, we invite you to stay tuned for an exclusive interview with Queen Rania on Larry King, of Jordan. I'll have that for you, but I'll have a final word in a moment here, back in a minute.
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HEMMER: A programming note tomorrow night, Connie Chung will be here in this time slot at eight o'clock Eastern time for a special report. "Fall From Grace, Crisis in the Catholic Church." Connie will talk with a priest convicted today of molesting one teenager and acquitted in the rape of another. Again, tomorrow night in this time slot here on CNN. Again, that is 24 hours away.
In six hours' time, Colin Powell goes back to Ramallah to meet with Yasser Arafat. After that meeting, we will all know whether or not this mission has accomplished something in the Middle East crisis. Thanks for watching again tonight. I'm Bill Hemmer LIVE FROM JERUSALEM. I'll see you again tomorrow. Good night.
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