Return to Transcripts main page

Live From...

Jerusalem: Palestinians Sift Through Rubble in Jenin; Ramallah Standoff Continues

Aired April 19, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, picking up the pieces. It was the center of the storm. Now, with Israeli tanks gone, Palestinians are sifting through the rubble in Jenin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There is a strong smell of rotting bodies and the many of the piles in this area of devastation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The U.S. calls for an independent investigation into the battle for Jenin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I share a deep concern about the humanitarian plight of the people who live in that region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: No let up in the standoff in Ramallah, five Palestinians Israel wants for the killing of a cabinet minister are now at the center of the siege. LIVE FROM JERUSALEM, picking up the pieces. Here now, Christiane Amanpour.

AMANPOUR: The United Nations Security Council is at this hour debating a resolution about whether they need to send a fact-finding mission to uncover what may or may not have happened in Jenin.

Earlier the President of the United States, George Bush, said that he would back a fact finding mission, and in the last few hours, the foreign minister of Israel Shimon Peres has called the U.N. Secretary Kofi Annan saying that if the U.N. did send a fact-finding mission here, it would be welcome.

But does that put Foreign Minister Peres at odds with his own Prime Minister who earlier today dismissed the very notion of any such inquiry?

In the meantime, the Israeli troops and tanks have withdrawn from the camp of Jenin, the refugee camp and the town there, but they have maintained a ring of armor around the area to prevent Palestinians from getting into Israel. Israel says all the military will be out of that area by Sunday.

Palestinians started burying their dead, those who have been recovered from Jenin. They buried them in a common grave outside the refugee camp, about 35 of them. Even the withdrawal, though, of the Israel troops didn't bring much joy to the Palestinian residents who have been trickling back to count their dead and their losses.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice over): It's early morning after Israeli tanks and troops finally pull out of Jenin. A woman and her child clutching his stuffed toy are among the stunned residents of the refugee camp, coming back to see just what they survived. All over this scene of massive destruction, people say to each other, thank God that you are still alive.

In the piles of pulverized concrete and twisted metal, women and old men scrabble with their hands in search of belonging, and where there's a stench, they search for anyone who might be buried.

It's a futile effort with just a plank of wood they can not winch away the concrete slabs. "If they thought we were human, they wouldn't have done this to us" said this old man, "and now no one is helping us."

Indeed, here they wonder why they are not yet getting the kind of emergency international aid they've seen rushed to earthquake victims all over the world. The U.N. says Israel bears some responsibility for launching a search and rescue operation.

(on camera): There is a strong smell of rotting bodies and under many of the piles in this area of devastation, but people may never know the true extent of their casualties unless they get in proper heavy lifting equipment to move the rubble.

(voice over): The war of the body count is almost as fierce as the fighting itself. Twenty-three Israeli soldiers and a still unknown number of Palestinians.

Israel press reconstruction suggests the army attacked from the edge of the camp with tank and machine gun fire, trying to get its infantry in, but failed because of armed resistance and then started attacking houses with Apache helicopters and tanks, until Palestinian fighters were forced deeper and deeper into the camp, here where the final destruction took place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last night, President bush says that Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel is the peace man, but you can see the actions of the peace man. Hundreds of houses were destroyed.

AMANPOUR: Some residents say they never got any warning, but others like Saed (ph), his wife and four children say they were told to get out. "We were here in our house for a week" he said, "until they called us on loud speakers saying they were going to strike with F- 16s."

The Israeli press reports carrier counts by some of their soldiers. One called this Vietnam. Others admit they used Palestinian camp residents as human shields as they went house-to-house searching for armed militants and booby-traps. The Israeli army insists the use of human shields, which violates the rules of war, is not their policy.

With the battle for Jenin over now, all that's left for the residents who are left is to report their missing and wonder where they're going to live.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): So, as we say, there are mounting calls for an international investigation into what happened in Jenin. In the meantime, we just want to repeat the Israelis say that they will pull out most of their military from the West Bank by Sunday. But, they say, they will keep their military in place in Bethlehem and in Ramallah.

And it's Ramallah, the center of where Yasser Arafat is holed up in his compound there, that is sparking some controversy. Why? Because it appears that the Israeli Prime Minister is moving the goal post for the conditions to allow Yasser Arafat to be released from that house arrest, and perhaps indeed, has managed to convince the U.S. President that those goal posts should be moved. CNN's Sheila MacVicar has made an investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR (voice over): In early December, Israeli tanks surrounded the Ramallah headquarters of Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat. He was besieged, and would only be free, Israel's Prime Minister then said, if he ordered the arrest of those suspected of murdering Israel's Tourism Minister.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE) had been shot to death on the eighth floor of a Jerusalem hotel on October 17th. Those suspected of the killings were arrested in February. Sources tell CNN, it was clear to the Israelis and the Americans the Palestinians made the arrests in order to bring the suspects to trial.

Three of them were found in the West Bank city of Nablus. Because Nablus and Ramallah are separated by land controlled by Israel, Palestinian officials sought guarantees they could be safely transferred and assurances Israel would not intercept the three.

(on camera): A number of sources have told CNN that a deal between Israel and the Palestinians to have the suspects taken to Ramallah and put on trial in a Palestinian court, was brokered by U.S. and European officials. The sources tell CNN that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon himself agreed to the deal after the suspects were arrested in February.

(voice over): As the suspects sit in Arafat's headquarters, Israel's Prime Minister now insists Israeli tanks will not leave Ramallah and the siege on Mr. Arafat will not be lifted until the suspects are handed over for trial in Israel.

When President Bush spoke on Thursday, Palestinian officials were angered when the President appeared to suggest that he supported the Israeli Prime Minister's demand, and that he ignored or did not know about the deal U.S. officials had made in February.

BUSH: I can understand why the Prime Minister wants them brought to justice. They should be brought to justice if they killed this man in cold blood.

MACVICAR (on camera): A spokesman for Mr. Sharon tells CNN that Israel has been angered by the Palestinian failure to so far put the men on trial. Essentially, the spokesman said, Mr. Arafat had his chance to have a trial. He could have had a trial. He didn't do so, and now Israel wants the suspects.

Palestinian officials on their part accuse the Israelis of constantly moving the goal post, of constantly changing the conditions under which they would list the siege of Mr. Arafat's compound. They point out that conditions in recent weeks, including Israeli military attacks and curfews have not been exactly conducive to holding a trial, but Palestinian officials told CNN late on Friday, that Mr. Arafat has again stated his willingness to put the suspects on trial.

For their part, U.S. officials are working to try to get the Palestinians to agree to a timetable for such a trial, and trying to get the Israelis to agree to accept a timetable and agree to withdraw.

Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Well, joining us now from the White House is CNN's Major Garrett to discuss this issue and others. Major, what is the story now? Is it a case that the U.S. President was either mistaken or has, in fact, been blindsided by the Israeli Prime Minister's new demands?

MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Not blindsided, Christiane, but I think the sum total of the President's remarks when he said he understood Israel's concern about bringing the so-called Zeevi Five to justice, is that the President was on balance siding with Israel and its concerns that so far justice had not been pursued by the Palestinians.

Ari Fleischer today, here at the White House said, the status of the Zeevi Five is that they're not quite in hiding, but not quite in custody. So for the Bush White House, it remains an open question exactly how justice for the suspects will be pursued by the Palestinians, and the Bush White House is looking for some concrete assurances about that. All they're saying right now about Mr. Arafat's most recent proclamation that, in fact, they will be brought to justice is that they're trying to work this out between the two sides, have not even described that action by Mr. Arafat, that statement from Mr. Arafat, as a promising development. Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Well, Major, is the United States administration going to stick with this demand now by Ariel Sharon that these suspected murderers of the minister be extradited despite the agreement that was brokered with the United States to have them put on trial by the Palestinians? Will the U.S. stick with that demand before the siege of Yasser Arafat will be lifted?

GARRETT: The official White House position, Christiane, is that the question of extradition is not central to resolving this issue, at least from the U.S. point of view.

What the President said, and what Ari Fleischer repeated today here at the White House is, the United States wants these suspects, the Zeevi Five, brought to justice, and they are not defining exactly how that justice should be achieved and they're not proclaiming that Israeli justices is superior to Palestinian justice.

What is clear that they are implying is that they want that justice, that process to be moved forward, to have it take some concrete steps, and obviously it needs to be agreed upon by both sides exactly how that will be achieved.

The United States is not setting out a public position on how best to achieve a resolution. They know both sides have very conflicting interpretations. They're trying to help them work it out and they're doing that work largely in private. Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Major, on another issue, the fact that the President was heard saying that he backed an investigation or a fact-finding mission into what happened in Jenin. How did that come about?

GARRETT: Well it's sort of interesting. You know the White House had not really weighed in on this topic until pressed on the point earlier today here at the White House, and Ari Fleischer, the White House Press Secretary said, yes, generally the White House supported an investigation.

When asked early this morning if that meant an endorsement of a U.N. sponsored investigation, Ari Fleischer would not go that far. Neither did Richard Boucher, the State Department spokesman later on today. But, of course, much later, just a couple or hours ago, the United Nations announced that Israel had, in fact, agreed to a U.N. backed investigation into Jenin.

What the Bush Administration has endorsed, and only endorsed in Jenin, is an investigation into the conflicting accounts of the number of civilian dead. None of the other grievances put forward by the Palestinians, only the question of allegations of a massacre is on the table as far as the U.S. is concerned. Christiane. AMANPOUR: Major Garrett, thank you very much. And when we come back, we'll have a - we'll take a short break, and when we come back, we'll talk to one of the peacemakers in this region.

ANNOUNCER: Next, the search for peace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE MITCHELL, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Our plan is a mechanism to bring down the violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: We'll talk with George Mitchell who's been at the center of peace efforts in both Northern Ireland and the Middle East.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: George Mitchell was a U.S. Senator from Maine, rising to Senate Majority Leader before his retirement in 1995. He chaired peace negotiations in Northern Ireland, leading to the Good Friday Accord. He then led an international fact-finding mission in the Mid East that resulted in a blueprint for peace.

AMANPOUR: And George Mitchell joins us now from New York to discuss this almost intractable situation. Senator, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

I want to begin by asking you the following. The Prime Minister of Israel has publicly stated on many times that indeed the U.S. administration is also sort of weighing in on this, as to whether Arafat, the leader of the Palestinians, can in fact be a leader for peace.

But I want to ask you, what do you know about Ariel Sharon's vision for peace, and can it in fact lead to any kind of meaningful solution within the parameters of what you have outlined in the Mitchell Plan?

MITCHELL: I believe it can if both sides will accept and implement the recommendations of our report and they have already accepted them but had not yet implemented them.

Christiane, almost every Israeli I've met wishes someone other than Arafat were leader of the Palestinians. Almost every Palestinian I've met wishes someone other than Sharon was the leader of the Israelis. But the fact is both were elected by their people and it is therefore they with whom the United States and others must and should deal, unless and until their people make a change.

AMANPOUR: What do you think is going to be the next necessary move before anybody can even think about getting to the Mitchell Plan? Do you think than an idea of an international conference is a starter, and what shape will it take? What purpose will it serve? MITCHELL: I think it's appropriate that the Secretary of State has said that every possibility is on the table and nothing is ruled out, and they're obviously looking, searching diligently for ways to try to get the parties back to the negotiating table, and to bring down the violence.

It really doesn't make any difference if it's called the Tenet Plan or the Mitchell Plan or any other plan. The objective of ending the violence and getting the parties back to the table is what really matters.

Now, I should make clear that our plan did not specify what the final outcome should be. We were directed not to deal with the final status issues and we didn't. It was limited to an approach to try to get the parties back to negotiation, and I think that's what's important, ending the violence and getting back to the negotiating table.

AMANPOUR: Given your experience in the field of very, very hard conflicts here, do you think bringing all the parties together with various sponsors and other interested parties, is that going to be a mechanism that's viable to sort of break this log jam?

MITCHELL: It will be at some point, but I'm not certain whether the time now is appropriate for that. In all of these negotiations, there are many levels of discussions and many stages of talk. I don't think it would be possible, nor do I think it would be productive to try to have Prime Minister Sharon and Chairman Arafat together at this moment. It's unlikely that the would meet, and even if they did, it's unlikely that it would be productive.

So I think you start at different levels. You search for the best way into the process to get it going, and then build to what you hope will be a successful climax.

AMANPOUR: You are a veteran of the Northern Ireland Accords, the Good Friday Accords. Often, it seemed that those were never going to produce the kind of peace that we see today. How do you compare that long conflict with this one? I mean do you see any parallels? Is there anything you can draw on from your success there to try to implement here or is it just a completely different situation?

MITCHELL: Well, they're very different, but there is this similarity that the pessimism which now prevails in the Middle East existed in Northern Ireland when the process started.

Indeed, just a few days before the agreement was reached, a public opinion poll reported that most people thought no agreement was possible. And over and over again, day after day after day, the effort was proclaimed a failure.

In effect, Christiane, in two years of negotiations, you could say that what we had was 700 days of failure and one day of success. And what it meant to me and what I think it means to the Middle East is that you have to expunge the word failure from your vocabulary and you have to keep at it day after day, because the objective is so meaningful and really, in a sense, so noble.

And I also think that what caused the end of the conflict in Northern Ireland, and we hope it is a final end to it, was the general weariness with war of the people. The people got sick of war and women in both societies especially said, we want this to end.

I think that may be occurring in the Middle East. The violence of recent weeks has been so devastating and life is unbearable for both sides now, the ordinary citizens, and I hope they'll soon realize that there's no way to solve this by military means. It can only be solved by negotiation.

AMANPOUR: Senator, can I ask you about the United States' critical role in this situation? There's a great deal of anger certainly on the Palestinian streets, when they see the U.S. made Israeli weapons conducting the raids into the West Bank, and also amongst the Arabs, who feel that the U.S. is not being evenhanded enough.

I mean just yesterday, all we could hear from Palestinians and Arabs was incredulity that George Bush had called Ariel Sharon a man of peace, and the Palestinian officials then poured scorn on the notion that the U.S. could, you know, perform its role as an honest broker.

Do you see any pitfalls for this administration as it navigates these treacherous waters, and do you think there's a risk that it's losing its role as an honest broker here?

MITCHELL: I think that's been the case, not just for this administration, but for every American administration for the past half century, because of course, the United States is strongly committed to the continued existence of Israel in a safe and secure and sovereign fashion.

I think we can perform the role because the circumstances and objectives of the two parties are not the same. The Israelis have a state. What they want is security. The Palestinians don't have a state. What they want is an economically viable, geographically contiguous independent state. We support that aspiration as well. But there's no doubt, Christiane, that you're quite correct, that the vast majority of people among the Palestinians and in the Arab countries, believe that the United States policy is biased in favor of Israel.

However, we have to keep at it and, in fact, despite their belief to that effect and the widespread demonstrations, they continue to ask for more American involvement, not less. You've been in that region for a while now, and you know that the continuing, even more insistent than ever demand is that the United States become more involved, not less.

AMANPOUR: That's exactly right. What do you see in the next couple of weeks, couple of months even, what do you see happening, or needs to happen? MITCHELL: Well, unfortunately, the whole history of this tragedy is that each ratcheting up of violence produces a counter ratcheting up of violence, and so if the past is any guide, and it's followed a rather predictable pattern, the military incursion by the government of Israel will now induce a very strong counter reaction from the Palestinians and that then will, of course, induce another reaction and so on.

My hope is that the parties will recognize that at some point, they have to get off this tragic cycle, this really downward spiral of violence and back to the negotiating table.

I think the government of Israel's in a very difficult, almost Catch 22 situation, Christiane. Any government would have to respond to these terrorist attacks, but the stated purpose of the response, particularly the massive one of recent weeks, has been twofold, to end terrorist attacks, and to isolate and marginalize Arafat.

Well, of course, with respect to the second, it's had the opposite effect. His popularity, as you know being in the region, is higher than ever among Palestinians and the Arab people, and it's very unlikely that the terrorist attacks will stop as a result of this.

So, it's a very difficult situation for all concerned, and I think at some point they both must recognize and the trick really to the series of judgments is to find the time when you can get them back to the table.

AMANPOUR: And, Senator Mitchell, on that note, thank you very much for joining us.

MITCHELL: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: We'll be back after this short break.

ANNOUNCER: For more on the crisis in the Middle East, head to cnn.com, and while there check out our special in-depth report "Mid East Centuries of Conflict." The AOL keyword is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: So this weekend should see the almost total withdrawal of Israeli forces from the areas they've reoccupied in the West Bank, and also will there be an investigation into the most controversial of those attacks into the West Bank, the one in Jenin? We'll keep an eye on all of that, but that's our report for tonight. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com