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Live From...

Rome: American Cardinals Gather at Vatican

Aired April 22, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Rome; crisis in the priesthood.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To come to Rome and to explain our particular problem in the United States is unprecedented.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: America's cardinals are hours away from a major Vatican meeting with the pope. Front and center: The priest sex scandal that is rocking the Catholic church. Cardinal in the crossfire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this is going to be a very significant meeting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: But it's what his colleagues think that may force Boston's Bernard Law to step down. One cardinal headed for the unprecedented meeting takes the tough questions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Would you address the question of sexual conduct on your part?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have never had sexual relations with anybody, man, woman or child in the 71 years that I have been here on this earth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Out in the parishes: Coping with conflict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are days of crisis for us as a church and we know it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ANNOUNCER: Live from Rome: Crisis in the Priesthood. Now, here's Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening. It's early Tuesday morning here in Rome. In just a few hours an extraordinary meeting will begin in the building right behind me; 12 of the 13 U.S. cardinals, the backbone of the Catholic leadership in the United States, will meet with Pope John Paul II. The subject; how to deal with cases of sexual abuse by priests and parishes across America.

Cardinal Bernard Law is one of the leaders to arrive here Monday. The Boston cardinal has never been accused of sexual misconduct, but critics say he shielded priests who have, and that allegation, in turn, raises other questions about the church leadership and its dealings with sexual abuse.

CNN's Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cardinals arriving in Rome were greeted by a mob of reporters and photographers. The cardinals hope this high-profile gathering will restore some trust in the U.S. Catholic church, but they warn against high expectation.

CARDINAL BERNARD LAW, BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS: I think this is going to be a very significant meeting as everyone has said. I don't expect that we will be making decisions at this meeting, but I think it's part of a process and it will put us in good stead for our June meeting at the conference of Bishops.

VINCI: Cardinal Law has been at the center of the controversy. Pressure has grown for him to resign, following reports that some American cardinals plan to ask the Vatican to demand his resignation. Vatican officials say that is not on the agenda, at least for now. And one of his fellow cardinals says he should stay.

CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, WASHINGTON: Cardinal Law has been saying the trouble began on his watch and he wants to fix it. And so I think, give him a chance.

VINCI: There will be two sessions a day beginning Tuesday morning with speeches by each of the U.S. cardinals. Then it will be the pope's turn to speak. But he is not expected to participate after that.

The discussion will focus on a series of guidelines that U.S. bishops are still working on. For example, how to handle first allegations of sexual misconduct. When to report them to police and what to do with priests accused of sex abuse. The Vatican will take the opportunity of this gathering to have a say in the writing of the rules.

(on camera): Vatican officials say once these guidelines are later set and approved for the U.S. Catholic church they do not rule out the possibility to make them part of a worldwide strategy. Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: The cardinals' meetings with the pope will take place behind me on the third floor of the Vatican complex. The location is on the same floor where the pontiff's apartments are located. It's an area of the Vatican where the pope can be seen almost every Sunday appearing at a window at noon to give a blessing to those in the audience below.

In an American touch, there will be briefings for the media each day. The first briefing is scheduled for Tuesday morning and, of course, CNN plans live coverage.

As it happens I flew to Italy with three of those cardinals. Prior to takeoff I spoke with two of them about the church and its troubles. Here's what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

What went wrong, do you think?

MCCARRICK: Well, I'm not sure that I can answer that in a word or so. I think it's a whole series of things that might have gone wrong. One of them is human nature, and human nature went wrong when we first brought sin into the world. Also, I think part of it is that we may not have been as careful years ago as we are now about people who come into the priesthood.

CHUNG: What do you think went wrong in that certain churches, certain cardinals did not report these...

MCCARRICK: I think what maybe the history of this is, that we became aware at different times of the situation. Maybe 25 years ago people thought, well, this is just a sin. This is a terrible sin. It's an awful thing. But you confess it. You promise to do better and then people give you another chance. And then we realized that it was more than just a sin. It was a psychological obsession.

CHUNG: And it was a criminal act.

MCCARRICK: And it was a criminal act. And so at that time, when this happened, man was given a jail term an when he came out, you sent him to a therapeutic center and the therapeutic center at the end would say, well, he's cured. He's safe. He doesn't have any limitations on his ministry. And you might take a chance.

CHUNG: You, yourself, had been accused.

MCCARRICK: Some of the cardinals had received an anonymous letter accusing me of all kinds of things. Soon as I got it, I do what I always do with these things because I believe in the light. I took it. I studied it. I answered it and then brought it to my council, all the council priests. I said, look. This has come in. There is nothing into it, here's the story. And it died, obviously, because there was nothing in it. CHUNG: It evaporated?

MCCARRICK: It evaporated. It was an anonymous thing. Every once in a while in life you offend somebody who doesn't like you or someone who probably maybe for good reason says this man's not serving the church as well as I'd like him to serve it so people decide to do things like that.

CHUNG: Did you know any of these individuals who were named? You were accused of...

MCCARRICK: This is part of my family. They were saying that I was -- that these things were happening in my own family.

CHUNG: In your own family? You mean your relatives?

MCCARRICK: Yes, yes. It's a terrible thing just to have to talk about.

CHUNG: Would you address the question of sexual conduct on your part?

MCCARRICK: Yes. I certainly will. I said to the "Washington Post" on the record, and I say it again now. I think none of us would have problems. I have never had sexual relations with anybody, man, woman or child in the 71 years that I have been here on this earth. So -- that's for the record.

CHUNG: End of story?

MCCARRICK: End of story.

CHUNG: Do you think that Cardinal Law should step down?

MCCARRICK: He recognizes that this problem happened on his watch, and he's determined to cure it on his watch. I think he feels a tremendous obligation to overcome this problem which he feels has happened during his time. I can't judge my brother on this issue. I think he -- I believe what he says that he is anxious to fix it. He feels he's in charge. He knows how to do it. I don't know whether I would be able to be strong enough to do that. But he is.

CHUNG: You mean to stay on?

MCCARRICK: Oh, yes 'cause it's tough. It's tough. But he wants to stay on to do what he wants to do, and to fix it all.

CHUNG: Do you think that there should be zero tolerance, one strike and you're out?

CARDINAL ADAM MAIDA, DETROIT, MICHIGAN: I think that's a very tough question. And the reason is we are a church that forgives. And we have to understand our human natures, our frailties and so forth. Cases aren't clear cut. They're not black and white so that you just don't know. But in the case like here in Boston, for example, there's no question, all right. And when it's very, very clear, I think there's no question. But sometimes they're ambiguous, like so much of life is ambiguous.

CHUNG: You mentioned Boston. Do you think those higher-ups should be held accountable and should Cardinal Law step down?

MAIDA: I don't think he should step down. I think he should be held accountable. I think he has given an account of what has happened. He's apologized, admitted his mistakes. To have a man of his stature just step down, I find that hard. And I think that he ought to -- he'd like to clean it up. I think he could probably be a very good man to clean it up.

CHUNG: Do you think out of this meeting should emerge a national policy regarding such sexual abuse?

MAIDA: I would hope we would all come together and look at this very seriously, because it is a very serious and sad issue. And we need to address it. We need to do it with integrity. We need to do it, out in the public.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Should Cardinal Bernard Law step down? The burning question. We've just heard from Cardinals McCarrick and Maida. When we return we'll pose the same question to two Catholic leaders with differing points of view. And we'll talk about what the church must do to repair its image.

ANNOUNCER: Next, some startling findings from decades of research.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's the story of the system that supports priests who sexually abuse. It covers up for priests who sexually abuse. It easily forgives priests who sexually abuse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And later on LIVE FROM ROME: How is all the controversy affecting the local church?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With my brother priests, I am sad. I'm angry. I'm angry. I'm frustrated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: We will have a candid conversation with a priest on the front lines.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Cardinal Bernard Law is 70 years old. He was ordained a priest in 1961. Law was appointed archbishop of Boston in 1984 and proclaimed a cardinal the next year. He oversees more than 2 million Catholics and more than 900 priests.

CHUNG: As we've been reporting, of all the cardinals in attendance, the focus will be on this man, Boston's Cardinal Bernard Law and his future. According to the "Los Angeles Times," some of his peers will urge the Vatican to ask for his resignation. For more on that, we're joined by the Reverend Richard McBrien, a professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame. Thank you so much for being with us.

FATHER RICHARD MCBRIEN, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME: Thank you, Connie.

CHUNG: Sir, you are quite a maverick. You have said that not only do you think that the cardinal should step down, Cardinal Law, but he shouldn't even be allowed to attend this meeting. And you have said the same about Cardinal Egen. Now, this is hardly a solution. You don't confront the problem, you simply ostracize them and move them out.

MCBRIEN: Those are all loaded words, Connie -- maverick and ostracize. I'm not a maverick and I certainly don't intend to ostracize anybody, but if you're gathering a group together to try to solve a problem and two members of the group are, themselves, targets of investigation, and the subject of very serious accusations about their own mishandling of the very problem you've met to discuss, then I simply suggested that they should have at least offered to recuse themselves.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Vatican would not accept the offer, but at least it would have been a gesture on their part to indicate that they realize they're gathering to discuss a problem that they, themselves, are party to.

CHUNG: Now, if they resign, though, wouldn't all the other American cardinals also have to resign? Because, after all, they've been tainted by sexual abuse, by this scandal as well?

MCBRIEN: I don't mean -- we're discussing two cardinals as if there's something terrible wrong about both of them and not about anybody else. We're all fallible people and sinful people. But they're the only two among the cardinals who have really been directly accused of transferring priests from place to place.

CHUNG: Quite the contrary, sir. In fact, there were...

MCBRIEN: No, when there's evidence that they knew that these priests were involved in predatory behavior. Cardinal Law...

CHUNG: That is true with a couple of others as well. Aren't you aware of the fact that it is true that certain priests who were accused of sexual abuse had stayed on and were not let go until just about a month ago.

MCBRIEN: Where's that? In which cardinal's diocese?

CHUNG: That's right. That is in Chicago, I believe, and another city as well. There were two in particular in which that happened.

MCBRIEN: Well, you may be right, Connie. If in fact -- and I don't know these facts. If, in fact, the same kind of allegations can legitimately be made about any of the other cardinals I would have said the same thing about them.

I have no bias about Cardinal Law or Cardinal Egen. It's just the principle. Look, we're arguing about something that's moot. Even if they had offered to recuse themselves the offer would not have been accepted. They are, in fact, going to Rome. They are there. They're going to discuss this matter tomorrow and the next day with the holy father and with the other Vatican officials that will company him. I'm hoping it will have a positive outcome.

CHUNG: Father McBrien, I spoke with a couple of cardinals, and they said that they feel as if their ability to minister is -- has changed dramatically because of this scandal. In fact, they need to be trusted. They need to be able to listen to confessions. And in essence, they say, they're going to become police officers, deciding what should be reported and what shouldn't be reported.

MCBRIEN: Well, that's part of the job. If criminal activity comes to your attention and you are in a position of supervision over the individuals involved, you're not a police officer, but you are a citizen who has an obligation, by reason of your position to report this activity to the civil authorities.

I don't see a particular problem. And as far as the bishops, or the cardinals, all of them, claiming that they really have to have trust, trust is something that you earn. I'm not saying that none of the bishops or cardinals are trustworthy, but on the other hand, the American Catholic public has lost trust in their own hierarchy. Peter Hart, a well known pollster has said that on NBC recently -- I'm sorry I mentioned another network, but he said just recently that he's never seen such a precipitous erosion in the credibility of any leadership organization in his entire career of calling.

That even exceeds Watergate and Enron. Now you have to deal with this reality. You can't say, please trust us. The bishops have to win back the trust. And I hope they can.

CHUNG: Father McBrien, would you accept the fact that many of these cardinals and the priests say that 20, 30 years ago they were told by psychiatrists that sexual abuse problems were curable. Well, now they get it. Is that good enough?

MCBRIEN: No, it's not good enough. You know, I know that there's a view out there that says, look, these are old cases and in those days they didn't really know all they had to know about the psychiatric dimensions of this problem. There may be some validity to that defense.

But the cover-up, the stonewalling, the transferring was as recent as the last few years. So that's an important difference. It's not -- the scandal is not so much the sexual abuse of the predatory priests -- that's scandalous to be sure -- the scandal that bothers the Catholic laity is the scandal of certain bishops covering up this behavior and putting children in harms way by moving these people that they knew had a history of predatory behavior, moving them from parish to parish and in many instances not telling the pastor and in allowing them to go to other dioceses and not telling the other diosis about the priests' history of predatory behavior. That's unconscionable and indefensible.

CHUNG: Father Richard McBrien, thanks for being with us.

MCBRIEN: Thank you, Connie. Enjoy Rome.

CHUNG: Thank you.

So what should the Catholic church be doing about its troubles? In a moment we will hear from...

(AUDIO GAP)

... allegations of sexual misconduct are nothing new to the Catholic church. The problem dates back decades, if not centuries. CNN's Anne McDermott has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNE MCDERMOTT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The church is suffering and it has been for a long, long time.

(on camera): A lot of people seem to think this is new, sexual abuse by the clergy. Is it?

RICHARD SIPE, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No. This is an ancient problem. It's really as ancient as the church.

MCDERMOTT (voice-over): But until some of the more recent revelations, many U.S. Catholics knew little or nothing about sexual misconduct in the priesthood. One of the first to raise alarms was Richard Sipe, a respected psychotherapist. He's done decades of research on U.S. priests and sexuality and spent years counseling clergymen. In 1990 he wrote "Secret World: Sexuality And The Search For Celibacy," covering the years 1960 through 1985.

(on camera): And what did you find?

SIPE: Well, I found that only about half of priests at any one time are practicing their celibacy.

MCDERMOTT (voice-over): A church spokesman branded that absurd and a slander saying the vast majority of priests are faithful to their vows. But Sipe says when he, himself, was a priest, he saw misconduct, reported it to his superiors, and later made his studies available to a Bishop.

(on camera): And what did they do about it?

SIPE: well, I don't know that the church authorities did anything response to my work except kind of tried to discredit it or me.

MCDERMOTT (voice-over): But stories of priestly misconduct, even molestation, slowly began to surface. This young man came forward a decade ago to talk about abuse dating back to 1975.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Backrubs that extended down to buttocks rubs and stuffs like that.

MCDERMOTT: The problem first attracted national attention in the mid 80s when a priest named Gilbert Gauthe pleaded guilty to molesting 11 boys. Although more cases came to light in the '90s, the stories coming out of Boston opened the flood gates.

SIPE: What's happened is that the critical mass of victims and victims' families has grown to such a degree that people no longer believe what bishops say, that, oh, it's just a little problem or it's not a problem here.

MCDERMOTT: Sipe contends the real problem is the cover-up.

SIPE: It's no longer the story of individual priests who sexually abuse. It's the story of a system that supports priests who sexually abuse. That covers up for priests who sexually abuse. That easily forgive priests who sexually abuse.

MCDERMOTT: But Sipe does believe the current focus on the issue is good for the church, that it will change, that it will grow. He left the priesthood, he says, because he discovered it wasn't for him. But he still goes to mass and he still believes. Anne McDermott, CNN, San Diego, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Let's open the debate. With me is Dallas bishop Joseph Galante, a spokesman on this issue for the National Conference of Catholic Bishops. Thank you for being with us, sir.

Thank you, Connie. Thank you for having me.

CHUNG: Tell me, isn't it time for Cardinal Law to step down? Isn't he damaging the image of the church?

BISHOP JOSEPH GALANTE, DALLAS, TEXAS: That question has been asked many times as you, yourself, have done it. I think my answer to this has always been that that's not a unilateral decision. I think that Cardinal Law, along with the priests and people of his diocese, have to prayerfully discern, can he be an effective shepherd of his people? And I think that's, to my mind, that's a key component.

CHUNG: But what about if the pope believes that he should resign, then, in fact, he should submit his resignation and it would be accepted. You do believe, though, it's up to his parish?

GALANTE: No. What I'm saying is, I don't think it's just a unilateral decision. I think it's got to be based on, can he be an effective shepherd of his people. Everybody who has input into that should have that kind of input. I think, also...

CHUNG: Bishop, allow me, if I may, to take a break now. I want you to consider this question. There are those who say that asking these cardinals to come to this meeting is like asking the fox what's going on in the chicken coop. We'll be back with you in just a moment.

ANNOUNCER: Time for your opinion. Do you think the Catholic cleric sex abuse scandal has been covered not enough, appropriately, too much? To take the quick vote head to cnn.com. AOL keyword is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: There are more than 46,000 Catholic priests in the U.S. today. To date, more than 1,000 priests have been accused of sexual abuse. This, according to record keeping by lawyers of victims.

CHUNG: We are back now with Bishop Joseph Galante. Thank you so much again. Tell me, do you subscribe to the theory that -- or those who say that bringing these cardinals together is like asking the fox what's going on in the chicken coop?

GALANTE: Well, I think a very interesting thing has happened. The focus has been very much on the cardinals. Cardinals are advisers to the pope. However, the point man for this meeting from the side of the Americans is Bishop Wilton Gregory, who's the president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and he's also accompanied by Bishop William Skillestad, who is the vice president.

A great deal of what will go on in the meeting, from the point of view of the United States, will be spear-headed by Bishop Gregory. And much of what results from that will come back to the whole conference of bishops.

For me, my perspective is this: it's easy to scapegoat or to try to scapegoat one person or another. I think the important benefit that needs to come to the bishops from this tragedy that has been going on in the church is that we have to look at ourselves, that we have to prayerfully, both intellectually and collectively examine how are we servant/shepherds of our people. How are we serving or not serving well in all ways? How are we interacting with out people? How are we providing safe environment for all our vulnerable people, children, and vulnerable adults? But more importantly...

CHUNG: Bishop Galante.

GALANTE: Yes.

CHUNG: Bishop Galante, may I interrupt you.

GALANTE: Yes.

CHUNG: And ask you one other question.

GALANTE: Sure.

CHUNG: In 1993, the U.S. Conference of Bishops did come up with some tough rules regarding dealing with pedophile priests.

GALANTE: Yes, actually...

CHUNG: But - yes.

GALANTE: Go ahead. I was going to say that was actually in 1992.

CHUNG: Yes, and it also emerged first in 1988.

GALANTE: Yes.

CHUNG: So my question is, how can certain cardinals say, "well, we knew the rules 20, 30 years ago," when in fact, this whole issue was addressed in the early '90s?

GALANTE: It was addressed, yes in the early '90s. An ad hoc committee on sexual abuse was formed in '93. Five principles were issued in '92. But the biggest problem, and hopefully what will be corrected with this meeting in Rome is that the Conference of Bishops can not legislate for the individual bishops.

And I know one of the things they want to come back from Rome with is, if the bishops develop a national policy, which I am sure we will, that it will be binding on every bishop on every diocese, that we have a uniform national policy.

CHUNG: All right, Bishop Joseph Galante, thank you so much for being with us tonight.

GALANTE: Thank you for having me, Connie. Thank you very much.

CHUNG: We will be back with more, including Ray Flynn, the former Ambassador to the Vatican.

ANNOUNCER: Still to come, allegations of abuse. Is the problem limited to American priests?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The particular types of problems that have been addressed in the U.S., they are western.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is this a worldwide crisis? The answer, following a look at today's top stories, when LIVE FROM ROME returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Sexual misconduct by priests is hurting the Catholic Church, not only in faith and broken lives, but also financially. Diocese have sold off land and buildings to pay multi-million dollar settlements to victims. Estimates of payouts range from $300 million up to $1 billion.

CHUNG: The crisis in the priesthood has many American Catholics debating whether there should be changes in the church. Former Boston Mayor Ray Flynn has served as the U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican. He's also the author of "John Paul II," a personal portrait of the Pope and the man, and he joins us from Boston. Thank you, sir, for joining us. We appreciate it.

RAY FLYNN, FORMER BOSTON MAYOR: I should say buon giorno, its three o'clock in the morning in Rome now.

CHUNG: You're right. Mr. Ambassador, Pope John Paul said just this last weekend, some priests live better materially and educationally than their families and that can lead them to believe that they are better than others. Was he sending a message that American cardinals are not above the law?

FLYNN: Well, I think the Holy Father made a very clear message, a message that of course is very difficult for anybody to live up to, and that of course when he says, you know, he wants priests to be perfect. I don't necessarily agree with that by the way, because I don't think any human being can be perfect. Sometimes good people make mistakes, and sometimes they make big mistakes.

I think Cardinal Law certainly made a big mistake in this case, but you know I think people really, you know, expect their priest to be there, to be loyal, to be dedicated. But I don't think they expect their priest to be perfect.

CHUNG: You mentioned that Cardinal Law did make a big mistake. Every time I hear someone, a reporter, ask you if you think he should resign, I'm still surprised that you continue to defend him.

FLYNN: Well, I guess what I really defend is I defend my church. I mean that's what my loyalty is. I'm proud of my Catholic faith. I'm proud of the overwhelming majority of priests that serve our country, our religion so well. I know the work that Cardinal Law did not as an ambassador but when I was Mayor of Boston.

CHUNG: But Mr. Ambassador, what has happened here is that Cardinal Law...

FLYNN: He was able to compile an incredible record when he was - when I was Mayor of Boston. He was in the forefront for a number of these issues, working for the poor and the needy and homeless. So I look at the whole issue. He made a big mistake, but I think he's the person who can deal with the victims now, and I think that's what the real crisis issue is, how to deal with these victims.

CHUNG: Doesn't it have any impact on you that Cardinal Law actually protected and reassigned serial child abusers?

FLYNN: Well, if I bought that that's what he did intentionally, I probably wouldn't be supporting him, but I don't believe that Cardinal Law, and I don't think I'm naive and I can stand to be corrected on that, but I don't really believe, Connie, that Cardinal Law intentionally put innocent children in harm's way. I think again, he made bad error of judgment, but I don't think he did it intentionally.

CHUNG: Then why do you think all this occurred, that one priest went from one parish to the next? If he did not intend to cover.

FLYNN: You know there were 881 pages in - there were 881 pages in this Father Shanley, Paul Shanley's personnel file. The person, Bishop Banks, who was in charge of administration for the Archdiocese of Boston at the time working for Cardinal Law, said that he never saw the personnel file of Paul Shanley.

I don't believe that Cardinal Law intentionally saw those files either. If they had seen those files, I don't think they would have signed, reassigned Shanley to any other area. But, you know, that's a decision that is going to be made legally, because Cardinal Law has been deposed and he will make those statements under oath on June 5th.

I guess the job right now in Rome, Connie, is number one, dealing with the victims; and number two, coming up with a policy so what happened to those innocent victims never again happens to any other person. The focus, the primary responsibility and focus ought to be on the victims in Rome and not a large discussion of other issues as important as those issues are.

CHUNG: Mr. Ambassador, do you think that Cardinal Law can be trusted?

FLYNN: Oh, I certainly do. I think he certainly can. I think he made some serious errors of judgment, and I'm surprised that either he or the people around him weren't more cognizant of the situation. I don't know, I can't explain for Cardinal Law why that was the case. I don't speak for him. I don't speak for the Catholic Church. I'm just one Catholic who's proud of my Catholic faith, who knows Cardinal Law, and I don't believe that he did anything intentionally to harm young people.

CHUNG: Mr. Flynn, do you think that a consensus will emerge from this meeting?

FLYNN: Connie, that's the central question, because if that issue is not resolved, I think the whole conference, this two-day conference, will be a huge disappointment and, I would say that publicly. I think they have to emerge here with at least general principles of what they want to see passed by the United States Catholic Bishops when they meet in Dallas in June. If not, come up with a specific proposal now, because this issue can't wait. We need to deal with the victims.

The other issues, as important as they are, there's plenty of time for discussion and debate on those, celibacy, ordination of women to the priesthood. All those issues will be debated. You're going to see an American Vatican free discussion of that nature in this country. But right now, the focus and the primary job ought to be on how to deal with these victims and how to help them. CHUNG: Mr. Ambassador, do you believe that celibacy is related to pedophilia?

FLYNN: No, I don't believe so at all because of the fact that I can't imagine that any sick priest, sinful priest, criminal priest would not molest a young boy if he had the opportunity to get married. I don't think that they're really related whatsoever, and as a result of that, I don't think that neither there's a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia, and I don't believe that this is an argument.

What has happened here in sexual abuse of priests - by priests, particularly in pedophilia, I don't think that's an argument for ending celibacy.

CHUNG: Ray Flynn, thank you so much for being with us tonight.

FLYNN: OK, Connie.

CHUNG: Only American cardinals have been summoned to the Vatican for this week's discussion of child sexual abuse. But as CNN's Garrick Utley points out, the problem is not confined to the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For Pope John Paul, the scandal struck close to home in his native Poland. In Posnan (ph), Archbishop Julius Petz (ph) an associate of the Pope, resigned after charges from young seminary students that he had made homosexual advances towards them. Petz stepped down last month, only after the charges were disclosed in a Polish newspaper.

In Austria in 1995, Cardinal Hans Grurer (ph) was forced to retire, after charges that he had committed sexual abuse 20 years earlier. Throughout much of Europe, the church's problem has been slowly emerging, often very slowly.

In Ireland, about 3,000 victims of abuse in church schools and orphanages will receive compensation. In France, 30 priests have been convicted of abuse since 1995. In Germany, an auxiliary bishop resigned this month, after being accused of abusing a woman during an exorcism. But in Catholic Portugal, Spain and Italy, there have been no cases reported.

UTLEY (on camera): Clearly, the church's problem with sexual abuse knows no borders, but exactly how widespread it is or how large is not clear because the full facts are not known, and often church leaders don't want to know.

UTLEY (voice over): For example, Brazil, the world's largest Catholic country. Church officials there know that pedophilia exists, but there's been little effort to dig for accurate figures. What's not acknowledged is not dealt with.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The particular types of problems that have been addressed in the U.S., they are western.

UTLEY: But Africa, maybe the scene of some of the most widespread abuses, there are documented accounts conducted by Catholic groups of priests forcing nuns to have sex, since as celibates, the nuns do not transmit AIDS.

So serious is the problem that the European Parliament last year called on the Vatican to act, to stop the abuse. And as for the Vatican, the official response from a spokesman about sexual abuse has been, yes it exists but it is "restricted to a limited geographical area." Garrick Utley, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Still to come.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When especially children are looking for affection and looking to give me affection, I might hesitate for a moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The crisis in the church is having a chilling effect on local parish priests. We'll explain, next on LIVE FROM ROME.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: There are 64 million Catholics in the U.S. They make up 23 percent of the country's population.

CHUNG: The sexual abuse cases are putting priests around the United States under extraordinary scrutiny. Many are now taking second look at gestures and activities that were once considered routine. CNN's Brian Palmer looks at how one congregation is dealing with the situation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN PALMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): If you just dropped in on Sunday mass at Long Island's Good Shepherd, you wouldn't know there's a crisis in the Roman Catholic Church. Families go to pews and join with Father Tom Spadaro, pastor here for 20 years and a priest for 37, in prayer and song.

MONSIGNOR THOMAS SPADARO, CHURCH OF THE GOOD SHEPHERD: These are days of crisis for us as a church, and we know it.

With my brother priests, I am sad. I'm angry. I'm angry. I'm frustrated.

PALMER: The sexual abuse crisis has changed the way Father Tom and his associate pastor Father Bob Schechenback do some things.

REVERENT ROBERT SCHECHENBACK, CHURCH OF THE GOOD SHEPHERD: It's a real touchy-feely place in terms of affection and warmth. There's a part of our prayer that is a part of our communion ritual. It's a sign of peace and through the whole building, all you hear is you know, the hugs and kisses.

And I think things like that have changed in a sense. I noticed for myself, with great sadness, that at different times when especially children are looking for affection and looking to give me affection, I might hesitate for a moment, you know. And when that happens, I was ashamed of it.

PALMER: Just a few days ago, Father Tom didn't offer a ride to a teenage church member who missed his school bus. The gesture might have been misinterpreted.

SPADARO: It's painful because I would have never given it a second thought. I would have asked that boy, could I help him out by taking him to school, and I feel badly about it that we've come to that, and yet I realize that's what is and so you have to live by what is.

PALMER (on camera): The Good Shepherd has weathered its own crisis. Eight years after leaving the parish, a priest admitted to inappropriately touching several young boys, while serving as an associate pastor here. He was recently asked to leave the priesthood. Many parishioners praise Father Tom for his handling of the situation.

JOHNSON: It's not being hidden here. It's openly discussed, and I mean my son's receiving communion for the first time (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I have no reservations about this parish.

PALMER: Has the crisis or scandal, whatever you want to call it, affected you the way that things work at Good Shepherd, anything like that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As far as I see, no. I mean everybody is still coming to church. Everyone still loves and trusts Father Tom and Father Bob.

SPADARO: Someone from Channel 7, I think it was, I'm not sure but anyway they came with a camera and said, "excuse me, can I take a picture of your collar?" My response was, "you certainly may. It's clean and I'm proud to be wearing it."

PALMER: Brian Palmer, CNN, Holbrook, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: And so this extraordinary meeting begins tomorrow around 9:00 a.m. Pope John Paul will speak, according to those who know. He will not admonish. He will not berate the cardinals. The Americans were not called here to be disciplined. But what the Pope says, the cardinals will have to filter. He's never blunt. Each cardinal will speak with no restrictions, no limitations.

The cardinals I spoke with said they are drained and burned out. The crisis is the most difficult problem that has faced these priests in their lives.

And that's our program for tonight. I'm Connie Chung. I'll be back here tomorrow night, LIVE FROM ROME. Thank you for joining us, and for all of us at CNN, good night.

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