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Rome: Cardinals Meet to Remedy Sex Scandal in U.S. Catholic Church

Aired April 23, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM ROME: CRISIS IN THE PRIESTHOOD. An unprecedented meet at the Vatican to remedy a major scandal in the church.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Because of the harm done by some priests and religious, the church herself is viewed with distrust."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Strong language from the Pope who says sexual abuse of children is a crime.

Connie Chung questions one of the cardinals who met face to face with the Pope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONNIE CHUNG, CNN HOST (on-camera): The Pope spoke this morning, correct?

CARDINAL ADAM MAIDA, DETROIT: Yes.

CHUNG: And he said that this abuse is a crime, but at the same time, he left the door open for rehabilitation. Did you see a conflict there?

MAIDA: Well, I looked at that too and I -- the same question rose in my mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The current crisis puts homosexual priests in the spotlight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BISHOP WILTON GREGORY, CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: It is an ongoing struggle and it's most importantly a struggle to make sure that the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: An American cardinal caught in the crossfire apologizes to his colleagues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL FRANCIS GEORGE, CHICAGO: He started out saying that in a sense if he had not made some terrible mistakes, we probably would not be here and he apologized for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: LIFE FROM ROME: CRISIS IN THE PRIESTHOOD. Now, here's Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening. It's now early Wednesday here in Rome, site of an extraordinary session between the leader of the world's Catholics and those charged with carrying out church doctrine in the United States. They met for about three hours Tuesday. Pope John Paul II making it clear to the cardinals, there is no place in the priesthood or in the church for those who would molest children. CNN's Jonathan Mann with more on the Pope's blunt message.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MANN (voice-over): An ancient prayer of gathering to begin an unprecedented session. The Pope had never specifically called the cardinals of the United States to the Vatican. Now, he's 81 and ailing and aides say that some of the pain he has feels comes from this crisis.

"Because of the harm done by some priests and religious, the church herself is viewed with distrust," he said. "The abuse, which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime by society. It is an appalling sin in the eyes of God."

The Pope's statement did not specifically tell the cardinals what to do. Discussions had only begun and are expected to last long after the two-day Vatican session is over.

But there are questions the cardinals are asking themselves. Should, for example, the church impose one-strike and you're out, a zero tolerance policy to defrock priests after a single, credible accusation of any kind of sexual abuse, rather than trying to help some priests reform or find them a home elsewhere in the church?

But the Pope's statement also spoke of conversion, the idea that errant priests can be helped, treated, forgiven. So where does the Pope stand?

GEORGE: I'm not sure where the discourse leaves us on that question of zero tolerance. I am more sure that there's still not a total consensus, even among the members of the hierarchy who are here in Rome at the present time. MANN: But at the cardinals' news conference after the meeting, a topic that the Pope did not address, but that has clearly been on the minds of many Catholics, especially now, homosexuals in the priesthood. The president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops was unusually frank.

GREGORY: It is an ongoing struggle. It is most importantly a struggle to make sure that the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men. Not only is it not dominated by homosexual men but that the candidates that we receive are healthy in every possible way.

MANN: The church demands that homosexual priests, like all who wear the collar, remain celibate. Does the church need to do more?

(on-camera): Homosexuality is not considered the issue in this current crisis. Heterosexuals abuse children, too. But as the church begins looking into the sexual behavior of some of its priests, the predators, it may start a debate about other sexual behavior as well. Both liberals and conservatives in the church are eager to make their voices heard if there are going to be new decisions about sex and the priesthood.

Jonathan Mann, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: One of the cardinals was here last week meeting with the Pope about this crisis. Cardinal Bernard Law has come under intense criticism for failing to take steps to protect children from known sexually abusive priests. More than a few critics and the faithful have called for his resignation. Boston's archbishop, though, says he has no intention of doing so, but he does apologize and did in a meeting with his fellow cardinals last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE: He started out saying that in a sense if he had not made some terrible mistakes we probably would not be here, and he apologized for that. He's facing it very clearly. He didn't speak about a possible resignation and nobody asked him about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: After hearing what Cardinal Law had to say and more importantly, what the Pope had to say, the archbishop of Detroit, Cardinal Adam Maida talked with me. Here are his thoughts on the crisis on being called to the Vatican and what he thinks needs to be done to restore faith in the priesthood.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG (on-camera): How would you characterize the meeting this morning?

MAIDA: The meeting was, I think, very, very good. It's was very serious. There was no laughter. There weren't any jokes. We all knew that we were there for a very serious reason and we respected one another. We came together as brothers. We all know each other, the cardinals that were present. And we were there like a family, trying to look at the problem and see what we can do about it.

CHUNG: Now, the Pope spoke this morning, correct?

MAIDA: Yes.

CHUNG: And he said that this abuse is a crime. But at the same time, he left the door open for rehabilitation. Did you see a conflict there?

MAIDA: Well, I Looked at that, too, and I -- the same question raised in my mind and I think we'll be reflecting on just what he meant. I think the...

CHUNG: Do you know what he meant?

MAIDA: I read the same thing you read. I heard the same thing you heard, but I think -- and in fact, he says it -- if this has happened, we don't want -- they don't want the priests in the priesthood. But he talked about forgiveness and rehabilitation. God's a forgiving God. They should go on with their life. God's grace is with them. There's hope for their salvation. And so, it doesn't mean that they're condemned for eternity.

CHUNG: All right. So what do you take his guidance to mean? What will you do with that?

MAIDA: Well, I tell you, we could all reflect on that and pray about it and see how that can be implemented. And then, I think, if we come up with specific questions, we have to maybe come back to him and say, what do you think, Holy Father, and so that -- that's one of the reasons we're here because, as again, the body of bishops here will take these broader directions and try to implement them, then when specific questions come up can come back for clarification.

CHUNG: Do you think there will be a consensus at the end of this?

MAIDA: I think so. I think so. I see no great division. I think we're focused problem and what we're trying to do is how many of these initiatives or which of these initiatives should we support to get the problem solved.

CHUNG: How do you think homosexuality should be dealt with because if there are some cardinals, some members of clergy, who believe that it is a problem?

MAIDA: Well, I would treat it just like you do a family. I mean I know of families. I know of people that had discovered that one of their children is a homosexual. You embrace them. You keep them. You love them; try to understand why this happened and why they are homosexual.

CHUNG: And you don't exclude them? MAIDA: Oh no. No, and a parent never leaves a child. A parent never leaves a child and as a family, as a father, I love all my priests, and I don't ask their -- what's their orientation.

CHUNG: If you believe that they are homosexuals in the seminary, do you then prevent them from becoming priests?

MAIDA: Well, it -- that depends. That's a hard question to answer. I take every case on its own merits.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: As Cardinal Maida just mentioned, somewhat of a mixed message from the Pope on what to do about pedophile priests.

When we come back, two very different views on what steps can be taken.

ANNOUNCER: Up next, when a priest abuses, what should be done?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many people are saying there should be a one strike and you're out policy. And maybe there should be. But the problem comes if you simply release these priests into society; we no longer can monitor and supervise them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And later, how can you tell if a priest is likely to abuse?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once we leave the person who takes their pants down and...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A look at a controversial test is straight ahead.

Time for you opinion -- should Cardinal Law resign over the priest sex abuse scandal? To take the Quick vote, head to CNN.com. The AOL keyword is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: There are more than 46,000 Catholic priests in the U.S. today. To date, me than 1,000 priests have been accused of sexual abuse. This according to record keeping by lawyers of victims.

CHUNG: The Pope, in his meeting with the U.S. cardinals, said he was deeply grieved by the actions of abusive priests. He told them -- quote -- "The abuse, which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime in society. It is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God." The pontiff went on to say -- "We cannot forget the power of Christian conversion, that radical decision to turn away from sin and back to God, which reaches to the depth of a person's soul and can work extraordinary change."

And in another part his statement to the cardinals, he said -- quote -- "People need to know that there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young."

So how will the Catholic Church atone for the sins of its priests and ensure the abuse does not continue? Well, to debate the issue, we go to Dr. Fred Berlin in Baltimore, Maryland. He's a psychiatrist with the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine and in Minneapolis, Gary Schroener, a clinical psychologist and authority on clergy sexual abuse.

Gentlemen, I'd like to start with you, Dr. Berlin. Can you help interpret what the Pope said?

DR. FRED BERLIN, SEX THERAPIST: Well, I think that the Pope is wanting to start a dialogue. And I think he's making it very clear that the absolute priority has to be the protection of children. But I think he's also struggling, as he needs to do, with making sure that in a solution for an answer here that the church continues to be church, that the values of reformation, of rehabilitation, of dealing with problems compassionately remain. So this is a huge challenge. How in the context of protecting society does the church maintain those values it's always traditionally felt to be important?

CHUNG: But you advised the bishop, the American bishops -- what will you tell them? Will you tell them that he supports zero tolerance or giving these pedophile priest another chance?

BERLIN: Well, I'm not here to interpret for the bishops or anyone else what the Pope means. I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that the major priority has to be the protection of children and nothing came come before that.

I think as long as that is given priority then there is room for debate of how in the context of making sure the children are safe, there can be an attempt to rehabilitate, to help people who have done wrong. But I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever as to what the priority should be.

And in the past, unfortunately, the attempt to help priests who have done wrong sometimes was not done in the context of first trying to be sure that the community was safe.

CHUNG: Gary Shroener, I know it's not every day you are asked to interpret what Pope John Paul says, but perhaps you can give us some insight. Is the Pope saying that there is room for a priest, a pedophile priest, if he undergoes conversion?

GARY SCHROENER, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Your guess is as good as mine, Connie. I'm like Dr. Berlin. I have a little bit of trouble interpreting what he means. I think it's kind of unclear at this time and I -- but I think the implication that simply prayer alone or Christian conversion will cure pedophilia is a pretty big mistake.

CHUNG: Well, do you think that pedophilia can be cured? Can it be dealt with?

SCHROENER: Well, I agree with Dr. Berlin that a great deal of progress has been made and in fact, we can help pedophiles. I don't think they should be wear the collar at least working in any place they can get access to children.

CHUNG: Are you saying they can actually be rehabilitated?

SCHROENER: No, they can be helped. They can be treated. But I don't think, in many cases, that we can be sure that they are sufficiently rehabilitated to go back to work with children or to work as a pastor in a church.

CHUNG: Dr. Berlin, do you think that pedophiles can be rehabilitated?

BERLIN: Well, I'll answer that. But let me first make the point that just as not every drunk driver is an alcoholic, not every adult or every priest who's engaged in sexual misconduct with a child has pedophilia. Asking whether or not you can help adults who have been sexually involved with children is like asking whether or not you can help drunk drivers. In other words, there is no right answer.

At one end of the continuum, there is a recossatant (ph) group who can't be helped and we need to acknowledge that. But at the other end, there are some people who can rather easily be helped and then, there's the whole spectrum in between.

Anyone who says we can't assist any of these people in turning their lives around is saying something that, in my judgment, isn't true. But similarly, anybody that says that once an offender always an offender, that extreme position is equally untrue, in my judgment.

CHUNG: Well, but you are a consultant to the ad hoc committee of the bishops who are dealing with this problem. What can you tell them that they should do? In other words, if there is this broad spectrum that you're talking about, do they take each case as it comes to them? Do they determine in some way or another that this priest can be reassigned and another priest should be defrocked?

BERLIN: Well, first of all, they have to err on the side of public safety. If someone has pedophilia, they simply shouldn't be in a position where they have access to children. I think that statement can be made categorically.

I also advise them and they know this, the problem has to be looked at from A to Z. It's not just what you do after the fact, but how do you try to prevent it? How do we recruit people into seminaries? How do we prepare them when they're in there for what lies ahead? If people are struggling, can they have counseling before the fact rather than after? What are reasonable rules about chaperoning? So there's not going to be one silver bullet that answers all these questions. It has to be looked at from its beginning to its end and many changes will need to be implemented in order to deal with this effectively.

CHUNG: Well, Gary Schroener, I think that these bishops in the United States really need some guidance. I mean it's clear that they came here wanting guidance. What can you tell them about determining whether a pedophile priest or whether you call this person a sexual abuser, or whatever, what can you tell them about whether they allow this person to continue to minister, if not to children, to anyone else, in a nursing home, in a prison?

SCHROENER: Well, as Dr. Berlin just said, I think they have to err on the side of safety and have to be extremely cautious, even working in a nursing home when they have access to children. I don't know what they're going to get from the Pope in Rome about this.

To be very frank, if you have a dysfunctional family that gets together to meet, they often don't solve their problems. I do hope that they pay attention to Dr. Berlin, who's done very important work in this area, and that in fact, they become well informed and they think always about the safety of children.

CHUNG: Wouldn't you say that the best thing to do is to just not allow any of these abusive priests to continue in the priesthood? I mean why should a church take any chances.

BERLIN: I'm sorry, is that directed to me or...

CHUNG: I actually was directing it to both of you. Why don't you go first, Dr. Berlin?

BERLIN: OK, thanks. Well, first of all, I think that has to be part of the dialogue. It may be that that would be the answer, but this is an important decision that needs to be looked at carefully.

I wonder, for example, in the context of protecting children that we not simply have a purging of all individuals who may have made mistakes in the past. A man, who 25 years ago, when he was 20 years old had a one time liaison with a 17-year old, perhaps he should be looked at as an individual and not just have this broad-brush approach.

I also think there are...

CHENEY: Gary Schroener? Let me -- Dr. Berlin, let me interrupt you and just jump over to Gary Schroener for a quick answer there...

SCHROENER: Well...

CHUNG: ... in the last 15 seconds.

SCHROENER: Yeah, basically, I agree with Dr. Berlin on that one. It does depend on the situation a bit. It's hard to generalize, but you shouldn't have the collar on if you are a repetitive sex offender. CHUNG: All right. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being with us.

And LIVE FROM ROME returns in just a moment.

ANNOUNCER: Still to come, a controversial test designed to show which priests are likely to abuse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Father, I'm going to handcuff you...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: An archdiocese making its own rules.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Scenes of life here in Rome a few hours ago. It's now early Wednesday morning here. Where in the media has been reporting on sex abuse cases involving priests for a countless number of years. After so many years, though, and after so many accusations, there is still no policy on how to deal with such priests. The rules and the reforms seem to change from parish to parish, except in cities like Chicago. That story from our Chicago bureau chief Jeff Flock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you'll put your arms up.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Over the past 20 years, most priests accused of sexual abuse in Chicago have come to this tiny room...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we put one around one finger here.

FLOCK: ... and gone through the procedure being demonstrated to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once we leave, the person takes their pants down and puts the gauge on their penis.

FLOCK: It's called a penile pathlismograth (ph) and tests for sexual disorders by measuring arousal to sexual images and stories involving children and teens. It may sound crazy, but it's a sign of how aggressively the Chicago archdiocese worked to root out abuser priests.

(on-camera): So pretty early on, they were getting right in the middle of it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely at the forefront.

FLOCK: There is no uniform national policy for how the church ought to deal with cases of priest sex abuse. The earliest one that could be adopted would be at the U.S. bishops meeting this summer. But here at the Chicago Catholic Archdiocese, they began making their own way about a decade ago, after a Boston-like experience here and the controversial testing of priests was just the start.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to handcuff you.

FLOCK (voice-over): In the midst of the high profile cases of Father Norbert Mayday and Father Robert Mayor in 1992, both ultimately convicted of abuse, Chicago Cardinal Joseph Bernardin announced sweeping reforms.

CARDINAL JOSEPH BERNARDIN, CHICAGO: I have drawn back the curtain.

FLOCK: Reforms that took priest sex abuse decision out of the hands of priests and put them into the hands of a review board of mostly layman.

DR. DOMEENA RENSHAW, PSYCHIATRIST: We have to err on the side of being over careful because a child is involved. Our charge, our goal, is to protect children.

FLOCK: Not protect priests, says Dr. Domeena Renshaw, a psychiatrist who works with sexual offenders and victims and gives up one Sunday a month to serve on the review board.

The so-called Chicago Model works like this -- an allegation comes into a special hotline. A fitness review administrator meets separately with accuser and priest. A report goes to review board, which votes on what to do. There are six lay votes, three priests.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By having a majority of lay people, it gives a certain amount of independence and objectivity to the deliberations of the board.

FLOCK: The importance of that came clear a few months later when Cardinal Bernardin himself was accused of abuse.

BERNARDIN: I have just submitted this case to the review board.

FLOCK: Bernardin submitted to his process though the accuser later withdrew the allegations.

(on-camera): Did you feel like you treated him like you would have anyone else?

RENSHAW: I think we treated him the same as anyone else.

FLOCK (voice-over): But is the Chicago Model truly a model?

BARBARA BLAINE, PRIEST ABUSE SURVIVOR: My big complaint is that the victims call me up and they're like, they won't even let me talk to the board.

FLOCK: Barbara Blaine, who founded the Survivor's Network for those abused by priests, wants to make the process even tougher. She complains victims aren't allowed to appear before the review board. Priests aren't either. Blaine, also, wants all allegations to go directly to authorities and says any priest accused should be immediately removed.

BLAINE: I believe that we have a very complicated problem that's going to require a complex solution.

FLOCK: But the archdiocese says the current system is working well. There haven't been fresh charges of priest sex abuse in Chicago for years.

GEORGE: All the allegations are 20, 25 years old.

FLOCK: Cardinal George and the church are so pleased with the policy that CNN has learned the archdiocese has done away with the pathlismograth (ph) testing.

(on-camera): It was partly out of concern for a priest's dignity, but may also be that the testing was more helpful when the church was trying to diagnose and rehabilitate priests. Now, it's far more likely a pedophile priest will be expelled. Still in a business of forgiving, the church in Chicago seems intent also on not forgetting, and giving pedophile priests a second chance.

I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, at Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Still to come, the church calls homosexuality a disorder. A modern society coping with an age-old controversy is just ahead on LIVE FROM ROME: CRISIS IN THE PRIESTHOOD.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BISHOP WILTON D. GREGORY, PRESIDENT, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: It is an ongoing struggle. It is most importantly a struggle to make sure that the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Bishop Wilton Gregory, that's the concern. He's the President of the U.S. Conference of Bishops. He's also at the Vatican meetings here in Rome. The question, is this crisis involving abusive priests suddenly being pinned on homosexuality?

Joining me for that debate, Harry Crocker in Washington, who wrote a book on the history of the Catholic Church. He says the answer to our question is yes. And Chuck Colbert is in our Boston Bureau. He works for the "National Catholic Reporter," and is an openly gay Catholic. Mr. Crocker, tell me is there a link between homosexuality and this current sex scandal?

HARRY CROCKER, AUTHOR: Well, I think the Catholic Church isn't looking to scapegoat anyone. I think they're just confronted with some disconcerting statistics. I mean it appears that the majority of these sex scandal cases involve -- I mean the numbers I've seen are 90 to 98 percent of them involve homosexual activity, which is a civil crime. It involves statutory rape between homosexual men who are priests, and a post pubescent boy.

So I think that's what the church is grappling with, and I think their other problem is that the church has this reputation of being an authoritarian institution. What we've seen in these cases, though, is that the church has actually tolerated dissent, dissent from its teaching on sexual morality to the point of actual criminality, and I think that's the real scandal here.

CHUNG: All right, then obviously you believe the church should be less tolerant. But let me go to Mr. Colbert. Why do you think this link exists certainly in Mr. Crocker's mind and others?

CHUCK COLBERT, "NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER": Well, I think it's been very easy for people to conflate these two issues, pedophilia, sexual abuse, and homosexuality because many people are still under the impression that there is some link and that somehow gay people, gay men, gay priests prey on children, and that's just simply not supported by the scientific evidence.

CHUNG: Well, what about that statistic that Mr. Crocker just gave us? What about that statistic that Mr. Crocker just gave us, 98 percent?

COLBERT: That's not what the salon.com article indicated. In fact, your two previous guests have talked about -- Gary Shoner (ph), I believe, mentioned that he has dealt with more female victims, yet when there are female victims, we don't call this heterosexual pedophilia or heterosexual ephebophilia.

But if it's some how same sex, that label, homosexual, gets tagged, and I think that's a grave injustice. Again, there is just no credible scientific evidence that links the abuse of children with homosexuality or gay priests.

Or, in fact, the more likely person to be the abuser are heterosexual men within the extended family. That's come up over and over again. They have access to the children, boys. The girls don't necessarily -- the girls run and tell their mother right away and the boys are at risk because men don't like to talk about sex and that's one of the things I think needs to come out in this conversation. It's a much broader societal context in which we're dealing. The Catholic piece of this is a small part of it.

CHUNG: Mr. Colbert, let me go over to Mr. Crocker then. Mr. Crocker you say...

CROCKER: Well, let's meet him halfway on that.

CHUNG: ... that the church is too tolerant. Go ahead.

CROCKER: I'd like to meet him halfway on that. I mean I think the underreported part of the story is that as far as we know, the rates of sexual molestation across from Catholic priests to Protestant ministers to Jewish Rabbis to the secular world is essentially the same.

There is, however, a particular homosexual problem for the Catholic Church. We know that looking at Protestant clergy, the vast majority of those cases of married ministers, you have heterosexual abuse of underage.

CHUNG: Well, if you accept your theory then, what is it then that causes it? Is it celibacy that causes more homosexuals in your mind to go to the priesthood?

CROCKER: No, it would be quite the reverse. I mean the rates are the same again. The rates are the same between heterosexual men and homosexual men who are in the clergy. I mean the Catholic Church -- you are no more likely to be molested by a Catholic priest than you are by anyone else. That's a misnomer, number one.

CHUNG: I think you both agree on that, isn't that true Mr. Colbert, you do agree?

CROCKER: But in case the...

COLBERT: Yes.

CROCKER: The cases within the Catholic Church are vastly disproportionately homosexual related, and I think it would be foolish -

CHUNG: Well...

CROCKER: It would be foolish to disregard that fact. That's what Bishop Gregory was talking about today, the president of the Catholic bishops, that we...

CHUNG: Let me go over to Mr. Colbert. Excuse me, Mr. Crocker.

CROCKER: Yes.

CHUNG: Mr. Colbert, tell me I'd like you to react to what Bishop Gregory said. I mean do you consider that to be a step back for gays, or just the very fact that they're talking about homosexuality is a step forward?

COLBERT: Well, I think it's good when we have conversations about human sexuality and homosexuality in particular. I think it's very interesting the use of the word dominated by homosexual men or priests. I mean the reality is, if we are to believe the estimates, that it's 20 to 50 percent are gay. Let's go with that.

It's a statistic that Don Cousins (ph) reported in his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood." Clearly, there's a disproportionate number, but they certainly do not dominate the clergy, because it's not gay priests who have any power in the church. It's closeted.

CHUNG: Mr. Colbert, I need -- I need to ask you to stop.

COLBERT: Sure.

CHUNG: And I thank you so much, both of you for being with us tonight. Next, our focus on homosexuality in the priesthood continues. I'll be speaking with Sister Jeannine Gramick, a nun for 41 years and one of the most outspoken nuns in the country.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Catholic teaching says that although some people are inherently homosexual, gay sex is a sin. This is because homosexual sex can not lead to reproduction.

CHUNG: Let's bring in Sister Jeannine Gramick, a nun for 41 years, and a major advocate for homosexuals in the Catholic Church. She is with the Sisters of Loretto and was kind enough to go to our Washington Bureau to join us. Thank you for being with us.

SISTER JEANNINE GRAMICK, SISTERS OF LORETTO: Oh, you're welcome, Connie. Nice to be here.

CHUNG: Sister Jeannine, tell me I want you to tell your story and then we will relate it to what's going on here in Rome. It was back in 1971 that you started these workshops with gays and lesbians. But then in 1999, something happened that was quite dramatic. What happened?

GRAMICK: Well, for many years, I had been in this ministry on behalf of lesbian and gay people, and in 1999 the Vatican ordered me to cease my pastoral work with lesbian and gay people, after a lengthy investigation.

CHUNG: And how did they -- how many years were you investigated?

GRAMICK: Well, probably since 1994 on and off, in those years. But without going into the details of the investigation, I believed that the decision was not a fair one because the processes in that investigation were not all fair. And so, I...

CHUNG: Were you summoned -- Sister Jeannine?

GRAMICK: Yes.

CHUNG: Were you summoned to the Vatican? You were.

GRAMICK: I was summoned...

CHUNG: You were summoned...

GRAMICK: I'm sorry. I was summoned to Rome in '99 and told by the president of a superior general of my congregation at that time that the congregation for the doctrine of the faith had decided that I should no longer be engaged in this ministry, and I -

CHUNG: But you would not be quiet, would you? GRAMICK: Right.

CHUNG: You refused to silence yourself?

GRAMICK: Well.

CHUNG: And now...

GRAMICK: I went around the country.

CHUNG: Go ahead.

GRAMICK: Around the United States speaking about the investigation that I had gone through, and sharing with people some specifics of that investigation, and why I thought it was not a fair process, and asking people to write to the Vatican to request a hearing, a reconsideration, and the Vatican received thousands and thousands of letters. And after about nine months, I was summoned to Rome once again and told that I may not speak about homosexuality at all. I may not speak about the investigation that I had gone through. And I just responded -

CHUNG: Sister Jeannine, I'm sorry, I need to interrupt you for a minute.

GRAMICK: All right.

CHUNG: Because we only have 30 seconds left. But I want to ask you, what do you think of what Bishop Gregory said today? I mean do you consider that a step forward or a step backward?

GRAMICK: Well, I guess what I want to respond to this whole crisis that we're in in our church, to me it seems that the root cause of the problem is a systemic problem. It's the secrecy, and that's what I felt in my own situation. I was told that I couldn't speak about my -- about my life, about the processes that I'd been through.

And I think if we would have a more open processes in our church, more democracy, more listening to the laity, that in developing guidelines and policies to deal with these sexual abuse problems. We need to listen to people's experience. We need to listen to the laity. We need to hear from our constituents.

CHUNG: All right, thank you so much.

GRAMICK: You're welcome.

CHUNG: We appreciate it. We appreciate your being with us, Sister Jeannine Gramick.

GRAMICK: Thank you.

CHUNG: Now priests, of course, are not the only religious leaders to take advantage of someone in their spiritual care. They are just the ones that we've been hearing about for so long now. CNN's Martin Savidge has the story of another. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's a story tragically known well, a religious leader accused of sexually abusing young members of his faith, and a hierarchy that looked the other way.

MARCIE LENK: It made me very angry at them.

SAVIDGE: But the suspect in no priest. Rabbi Baruk Lanner, by just about all accounts, was an extremely charismatic and effective teacher/motivator credited with drawing teens to Judaism like no one else could. For over 30 years, he was a national youth group leader for the Orthodox Union.

GARY ROSENBLATT, EDITOR, JEWISH WEEK: But the alleged darker side was that he was a very controlling person and abusive in many ways.

SAVIDGE: Despite numerous complaints from students and parents of the Rabbi's sexual impropriety, dating back to the '70s, leaders of the Orthodox Union chose to ignore or simply disbelieve, leading an eventual investigative commission to report: "It was a widely held view that the good being done by Lanner for the organization outweighed the negative effects of his bad behavior."

Editor Gary Rosenblatt finally broke the story in the Jewish Week newspaper of New York, after talking with Jews claiming to be the rabbi's victims.

ROSENBLATT: I spoke to dozens who each would tell me that they know of many others. So I think it's fair to say that in some way or another, he had an abusive relationship or effect on hundreds of teenagers.

SAVIDGE: Marcy Lenk says she was one of those teens. She's angriest most, not with the Rabbi, but with the leaders in the Orthodox Union.

LENK: If they had stopped him, first of all, many, many more students would not have been hurt by him, but also they would have stood up for real Jewish values.

SAVIDGE: Lanner resigned the day after the story went public, and now faces trial in New Jersey. His attorney declined to go on camera, but did say: "Rabbi Lanner strenuously denies violating any criminal code or committing any act of sexual abuse." The Orthodox Union has implemented major changes and apologized.

RABBI HERSH WEINREB, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, ORTHODOX UNION: We should have responded much sooner than we did and much more firmly than we did.

SAVIDGE: Experts say no faith is immune to sex scandals.

PROFESSOR THOMAS PLANTE, SANTA CLARA UNIVERSITY: Approximately two to five percent of clergy, regardless of religious tradition, has had a sexual experience with a minor.

SAVIDGE (on camera): Despite their suffering, victims often say that they never lost their religious faith. What was lost was their faith in religious leaders. Martin Savidge, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Next, it has no army and is only 100 acres in size, but it's an independent nation. Welcome to the Vatican. We'll take a look at the world's tiniest state when LIVE FROM ROME returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Many news reports this week have carried a Vatican City dateline, but very few of those reports have been about Vatican City itself. That's an oversight CNN's Stephen Frazier has decided to correct, with a report we've decided to call, Vatican City 101.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHEN FRAZIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's an independent state, the world's smallest, about 100 acres in size. Visitors see a big church and a bigger plaza, extensive galleries of fine art. A few people get into the formal gardens. Fewer still get into the offices or the living space for about 1,000 residents.

Here's the best known. Less well known are its theological college, its radio and television studios, its heliport and freight rail spur, its bank. No army, the Swiss guards are colorful and well drilled, but their mission is to protect the Pope, not combat, think Secret Service.

All this fits inside a wall less than half a mile on a side, and much of it looks like a shrine to something more than spiritual leadership, something more like empire, the kind of worldly might exercised by Pope Urban II, when he sent the Knights of Europe on the Crusades, or Pope Leo I, when he confronted Attila the Hun face-to- face outside Rome and stopped his invading hoards in their tracks.

Today's Pope, of course, doesn't have that kind of power or influence, or does he? Many Europeans believe John Paul II played a major part in toppling communism in Europe and the Soviet Union, by sharing secret intelligence with Ronald Reagan, supporting the opposition in Poland, and by staging open air masses time and again just on the free side of the Iron Curtain.

This is Trousdorf (ph), Austria for example, in June 1988, where he negotiated day passes for Hungarian and Romanian and Czech citizens to attend, people whose governments had said for generations, "your faith is meaningless. There is no God, only the state matters," and who were emboldened by this display of religious fervor among westerners who were supposed to be corrupt.

Just to ram home the point, Vatican television amped up its broadcast signal and beamed these images to amazed communist viewers, overpowering the jamming efforts of their governments. By the early '90s those viewers were in the streets.

Vatican negotiators have helped resolve armed as well as ideological conflicts too, mediating a civil war in Mozambique or Lithuania's breakaway from the Soviet Union, ending the United States' invasion of Panama by offering Manuel Noriega asylum.

Vatican delegates to international summits have wielded controlling influence. At this population conference in Cairo in 1995, western nations proposed birth controls that developing nations viewed as a plot to suppress their populations. The Vatican built a coalition that quashed the proposals.

Feminist organizations and other have proposed ending the Vatican's observer status at the United Nations, and the European Union and other international bodies. They argue that with the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the loss of direct political control by mullahs in Iran, the Catholic Church is now the only religion represented as a state in world politics. They say it enjoys undue and unfair influence as a result.

Such arguments though have won little favor to date, and because of that unique status, the Pope continues to shape the world as spiritual leader of more than a billion Catholics, yes, but perhaps even more dramatically as head of state of the tiniest nation on earth.

Stephen Frazier, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: And finally tonight, I did have a chance to speak with several cardinals, and by the end of the day they said they had never heard the Pope speak in such strong terms condemning sexual abuse. One cardinal said: "He was not happy that we made the wrong decision, not happy we made mistakes."

Wednesday, the cardinals may be able to clear up any ambiguities, when they have lunch with the Pontiff. A cardinal said the Pope is frail and he was obviously hurting physically, but his voice was not slurred and his message was clear.

I'm Connie Chung LIVE FROM ROME. I'll see you back here tomorrow at the same time. For all of us here at CNN, thank you for joining us and good night. LARRY KING LIVE is next.

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