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Rome: Cardinals Consider Zero Tolerance Policy as Meetings Conclude

Aired April 24, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM ROME: CRISIS IN THE PRIESTHOOD. Announcement at the Vatican.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, WASHINGTON: There's probably the beginning of a real consensus there following the Holy Father's words, that from here on in, there is no place in the priesthood for someone who would do such a thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: America's cardinals move towards zero tolerance for priests who sexually abuse children. Connie Chung questions one of the church leaders who met face to face with the Pope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONNIE CHUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): What is emerging from this two-day meeting?

BISHOP WILTON GREGORY, U.S. CONFERENCE OF BISHOPS: I think it's my hope that the Holy Sea, the officers of the Quorum, the administrative officers for the Holy Father have a much clearer appreciation of a situation that we are facing in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Voices from the parish.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it was absolutely necessary for this conference to be convened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a lot of people who are good Catholics who don't trust their priests. This is ridiculous that the church is hiding behind the Vatican.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: American Catholics react to the announcement at the Vatican. A victims' view...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELLEN BREM, ACCUSER OF ABUSE: I don't know if anybody who has ever been abused can actually move on from it. It's always there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A woman who was abused by a priest talks about what today's moves mean to victims of the clergy.

LIVE FROM ROME: CRISIS IN THE PRIESTHOOD. Now, here's Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Goods evening, and welcome from Rome where it's now 2:00 in the morning on Thursday. The lights of St. Peter's in Vatican City right behind me, this is where we've been the past few days, where U.S. cardinals were summoned to discuss with the Pope himself the growing sex abuse scandal that has rocked the priesthood in the United States. Their unprecedented session is now over with the growing consensus on what steps to take next. CNN Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci joins us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... zero tolerance or something less dramatic.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The U.S. cardinals agreed there will be no tolerance for priests guilty of serial predatory sexual abuse of minors. They will be dismissed from the priesthood.

But the cardinals could not reach a consensus on the crucial issue of zero tolerance to which priests, who are believed to be first-time offenders. In other words, one strike and you're out.

MCCARRICK: You can't dismiss them right away. You've just had this accusation. You feel it's credible. You take them out of ministry. So he's on what I usually call administrative leave. And during that time, he doesn't exercise his function as a priest.

VINCI: Cardinal McCarrick of Washington, D.C. suggests during the suspension period the accused priest would go through psychological evaluation and his future decided by a review board, which would include lay people like doctors, relatives of sex abuse victims and police.

Bishop Wilton Gregory, head of the U.S. Bishops Conference, said the aim is to move fast against offenders, but in a fair way.

GREGORY: We want to be just in our treatment of even a priest who offends. I mean even a priest who offends as in the laws of most nations, is still enjoys rights until a decision has been made. VINCI: In their final statement, the heads of the U.S. Catholic church repeatedly mentioned Pope John Paul II. On Tuesday, the pontiff said there was no room in the church for those who harm the young. Some interpreted the message as an endorsement of zero tolerance. But the Pope also suggested offending priests should be helped through prayer and therapy.

In an open letter to the priests of the United States, the cardinals took some of the blame for not protecting the church from the scandal, but they say it won't happen again.

MCCARRICK: I can't see how anyone in the United States today would cover up something like that. The -- those -- what may have happened in the past, through inattention or through whatever, I don't think what we've gone through, what our people have gone through, what the victims have gone through, I don't see that that -- I can't see anyone with the responsibility in the church ever trying to cover up anything.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Alessio is here with me now.

Alessio, I want to hit a few quick subjects.

VINCI: Sure.

CHENEY: There is an undercurrent here for these past two days -- is Bernard Law of Boston going to step down? Should he resign? Actually, he -- the subject of his resignation never even came up, right?

VINCI: Well, it didn't come up during the conversation, during the meetings between the cardinals and -- the U.S. cardinals and the Vatican officials. And it did come up before the cardinals arrived here and according to what the Vatican officials are telling us, as well as the U.S. cardinals who gave the press conference earlier today, they said this is an issue between the cardinal, Law, himself and the Pope. And this will be perhaps subject of a conversation later on.

One reporter said, you know, is Cardinal Law dodging us? But the bishop, Gregory, actually said, you know, maybe he had any other schedule anyway. Most U.S. cardinals would not there at the press conference.

CHUNG: All right. Another subject that did not come up, celibacy.

VINCI: Well, the -- it did not come up during the discussion. It did come up during the press conference. It was part of the communique that was issued late last night.

CHUNG: And it was one line and one...

VINCI: It was one line, as I said. There is -- you know, they reinforced the line of celibacy but they also said that there is no link between celibacy and pedophilia.

CHUNG: All right. It's clear that most of the cardinals agreed with the zero tolerance when it comes to a future case, but what about past misdeeds?

VINCI: I think that was one of the things that was not really clear that came out of the press conference. Many questions came out on that. They gave some confusing answers. And I think that one of the reasons why the injunctions were not clear is because the bishops themselves still have to address the issue. They will probably do that in the coming months, ahead of the U.S. Bishops Conference in Dallas in June.

CHUNG: And when they bring those proposals to Dallas, will they still have to come back to Rome, not physically, but send these proposals for a -- to check in with the Pope?

VINCI: I think as these issues are discussed between now and Dallas, they will be in communication with the Vatican. I think the Vatican wants to have a big say on these guidelines. They know that there will be primarily be guidelines for the United States. But eventually, if they work in the United States, then they aren't ruling out the possibility at least to make them also worldwide.

CHUNG: All right. Thank you Alessio Vinci.

And so, we wait for the bishops to gather in Dallas about two months from now. Bishop Wilton Gregory will be running the show. He's the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. While the cardinals were wrapping up their session, he and I had a chance to talk about what's been accomplished and what still needs to be done.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREGORY: I'm not a legislator. I don't -- I've never been an elected official, but I think this kind of planning takes place in Congress an awful lot, where you're working on a bill and you kind of get the parameters and so, when the final vote comes, everyone has a sense of ownership. And I think that's what we've been working on.

CHUNG: Would you equate yourself as being part of the legislature or a cabinet then?

GREGORY: I would say we're probably the legislature.

CHUNG: The bishops will be considering guidelines...

GREGORY: Right.

CHUNG: ... in June. Is anything in your mind different based on the input that the Vatican has given you?

GREGORY: A few things are different. We have made -- we've made it eminently clear to the Holy Sea that the guidelines that we would like to decide on our guidelines that would be for the entire United States. We're talking about a comprehensive national policy. And we've also raised the issue of some means of verifying implementation so that guidelines -- we don't want -- we don't want good guidelines that read well in the paper, sound good on television, but are not put into practice. So there has to be some means of validation.

Now, the issue of how you do that is still under discussion. We could do that with the help of a national advisory board, of prominent people in the United States.

CHUNG: Including laymen and women?

GREGORY: Predominantly lay men and women, professional laymen and women; perhaps even non-Catholic laymen and women.

CHUNG: Doctors...

GREGORY: Doctors...

CHUNG: Psychiatrists...

GREGORY: ... lawyers, psychiatrists, people in public office, people whose credibility is so unquestioned that when they would review these guidelines and would somehow offer their opinion, it would garner immediate acceptance.

CHUNG: Would these guidelines be mandatory?

GREGORY: Obligatory, yes. See, that's what the implementation would do and that's why I said before, we don't want them just to sound nice. We want them to be effective.

CHUNG: I think the burning question is, will this group of guidelines include zero tolerance or give the offender a second chance?

GREGORY: Connie, there is a growing consensus, and I say a rapidly growing consensus, but it is not an absolute position. That is not everyone has signed off on it, that the risk of reassigning someone who has hurt a child in any church ministry is too great a risk.

Now, having said that, we need to at least look at what would be the circumstances that would make us even consider that. And it seems to me that we can't do that alone. We have to do that in the open forum. See, I think that's, in some respects, that's where dioceses may have gotten in trouble with the confidence of their people, that the bishop made a decision based on his own personal information. He didn't consult anyone else.

I think over the past three months these have been three terrible months to be a bishop. The focus has shifted. It's no longer on the priest who offends. It's on the bishop who makes bad judgment.

CHUNG: And doesn't that also bring up the secrecy question?

GREGORY: Yes.

CHUNG: It was all under wraps.

GREGORY: It wasn't all under wraps, but enough of it was under wraps. You know, when you hear and you talk about the language of secrecy and cover-up, the bishops might say, well, I told everybody, but people would say, ah, bishop, you didn't tell parents. You didn't tell -- you didn't tell that parish that you sent him to that this man had a very serious offense in his background. And in hindsight, that was wrong.

CHUNG: What do you think precipitated the wrong decision?

GREGORY: Probably having out of focus the priorities.

CHUNG: Where were the priorities?

GREGORY: I think the priorities may have been scandal in the church, avoiding bringing scandal to our faithful, the desire to save a repentant cleric.

CHUNG: Cardinal McCarrick presented a five-point plan.

GREGORY: Right.

CHUNG: Would you say that that five-point plan...

GREGORY: Well, first of all, Cardinal McCarrick's plan, in general, reflects the guidelines that we have in place. Any additional adjustment, I think, will be made in the light of what we've learned, not just over the past three months.

I've been the bishop of Bellville going on nine years. You learn a lot when you sit across the room from someone who has been hurt by a priest. And you see in a face of a real person, maybe years after the offense, but you hear years of anger and disappointment and range and embarrassment and shame to sit in the room and to have parents describe to me the absolute trust they had in a priest with their children and to have had that trust betrayed. You learn a lot.

CHUNG: So would you say that the five-point plan that Cardinal McCarrick presented is essentially the plan?

GREGORY: It would be a great framework but it's not all there is.

CHUNG: Can you add on for us today so...

GREGORY: Well...

CHUNG: ... so we can get an idea of what it is?

GREGORY: ... part of the addition, I suspect, would be how we would address the situation of this priest canonically. I mean we, as a Catholic Church, live in a society under two sets of laws. You live in a state. You live under the state laws, but you also have the federal laws, and it is quite possible for a particular action to be a crime under both state and federal law. And I think that's the best kind of way of describing how we have to be cognizant and aware and responsive to the eglisiastical laws that govern the church.

CHUNG: In church law, would the worst punishment be to be defrocked?

GREGORY: The worst punishment would be to be removed form the clerical state. Defrocked is the term, but layasized is another term, removed from the clerical state, yes. We are not saying that church law supersedes or even precedes civil law.

CHUNG: In fact, at this moment, you are saying...

GREGORY: That civil law has to -- if it's a crime, it's reported to the civil authorities.

CHUNG: And how did you determine if it is a crime? In other words, most of...

GREGORY: It breaks the criminal code. Molestation of children, molestation of a minor is a crime.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Bishop Wilton Gregory, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, a man that some believe may become a leading figure of the Catholic Church in the United States.

LIVE FROM ROME returns in just a moment.

ANNOUNCER: Next, she was abused at the hands of a priest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BREM: It has very little to do with the sexual acts. It has to do with the betraying that happens around the sexual acts. It's not the sexual act that's important. It's the betrayal. It's the misuse of trust.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A victim's story and her reaction to today's events when we return.

And later, other American Catholics respond to the announcements at the Vatican.

For more on the CRISIS IN THE PRIESTHOOD, including an interactive look at the Cardinals' meeting at the Vatican and remarks from the Pope, head to CNN.com. The AOL keyword is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: A view of the Trevy Fountain from a few hours ago. It's now early Thursday morning here in Rome. Welcome back.

Already, the U.S. Catholic Church has spent millions settling lawsuits with people who have been sexually abused by priests. Now, several grand juries are investigating more allegations, Philadelphia being the latest. Today, its district attorney announced a grand jury will look into whether anyone, including church officials, broke the law by failing to report cases of alleged abuse.

And in the archdiocese of New York, sex abuse victims who promised to keep quiet, as part of a settlement are now free to talk. The Westchester district attorney announced the church is releasing them from any promises of confidentiality.

One victim who has been speaking out is Ellen Brem. We met in California where she testified against a priest who had abused here. He was found guilty of molesting her more than 20 years ago. Ellen Brem joins us now from our San Francisco bureau.

Ellen, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.

BREM: Thank you for having me.

CHUNG: Ellen, are you heartened by the fact that in their communique, the cardinals said that they would be dealing with serial, predatory sex abusing priests by dismissing them?

BREM: I'm encouraged by the fact that they are taking so many steps towards improving such a really difficult problem to deal with, but there's a number of things that concern me. And actually, I think that the way it's been stated has been very vague and that's one of the things that worries me the most. The vagueness of this, has, in the past, allowed them to later sort of default back to their ways of covering things up again and saying, well, you know, I understand you're saying you heard us say this, but we didn't actually say that. And I'm a little concerned that the vagueness of how they're coming out with things might prove to be a problem.

CHUNG: Ellen Brem, you also, I think noted earlier when I had talked to you, and it was about a week ago, that there was some concern as to whether or not a so-called abusive priest can be rehabilitated. Now, it appears as if the cardinals support the idea of zero tolerance, to an extent. Do you believe that an abusive priest can be rehabilitated?

BREM: I don't believe that an abusive priest -- once you're a pedophile, you're always a pedophile. I don't think that that portion of somebody's psyche can be rehabilitated. It's always there.

If -- certainly, if there's a pedophile out there who is working within -- among the clergy, they need to be removed at the first onset. I think the one strike you're out policy would be a great policy.

I don't think that they've addressed the issues of priests who are still out there and working among parishioners who have allegations of abuse dating back quite a ways, that maybe can't be prosecuted criminally. And I think that that's something that they're going to have to deal with and work towards figuring out a means of solution there. CHUNG: All right. Well, the Pope had a good deal to say yesterday about this issue. Were you -- were you confident that the Pope's words can be taken and brought back to the United States and implemented?

BREM: There's a large degree of what the Pope said that really concerns me. The fact they've been focusing on this being just an American issue is of great concern to me. I -- there's probably a number of factors that make it look as though that this is just an American issue, but it's not just an American issue. It's happening in Ireland. It's happening in Poland. It's happening in Canada. They seem to be addressing this as if it only happens here and I'm concerned that they are still basically taking the voice of other people and, again, again trying to push things under the carpet. And they need to deal with this on a global scale.

There's a number of things that he said that I don't know if he has just an honest ignorance about what's really going on or if -- you know, I'm not really sure where some of these things are coming from. No, some of the things that he said actually really concerned me.

CHUNG: Concerned you in particularly what way?

BREM: You know, there were some statements made about how things have been handled in the past that maybe bishops had been misguided by some of the representation that they were getting. And I inferred from what he said that he was talking about psychiatric evaluations, that type of thing. But really, the errors that they have been making in these cases have been based around the fact that lawyers have been suggesting that they cover up the scandal. And I'm worried that if he's not owning up to the fact that they were in fact covering things up, that they're going to continue to cover things up and that they will just be talking a good talk.

CHUNG: Well, what were you expecting? What were you expecting?

BREM: You know, I guess I was just...

CHUNG: After all, it's only two days of meetings and they are going to continue the discussions on guidelines towards that meeting in June in Dallas among the U.S. bishops.

BREM: And I'm encouraged that they're going to be continuing those meetings. I think it's the first step. The fact that they're admitting that there is a problem is the first step. But I still see them covering their tracks in some -- in many senses. And I think that, you know, I am worried that they are just talking the talk that they're just trying make things look good right now. And I'm not saying that they are, but it certainly worries me that that could be what they're doing.

And frankly, nobody wants to talk about something so awful as children being molested. So I'm worried that the Catholic community out there will breathe a sigh of relief and say, oh, thank goodness, they're looking at this problem and they're taking it into hand and they're trying do something about it. So now, I don't have to worry about it. And that's not the case. The Catholic community needs to stay on top of them. They need to make sure that they're doing what they say they're going to do.

It's a very scary prospect to think that, you know, maybe they can just make things look good by having these meetings. But -- and I am encouraged that they're having the meetings, but I have these worries as well that people are going to sort of let things go and say, now they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. And now, I don't have to worry about it anymore. And that's not the case. The Catholic community needs to stay on top of their priests, their bishops, their cardinals. They need to stay on top of it. They need to make sure that they're doing what they say they're going to do and that they're actually taking care of the problem.

CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much, Ellen Brem, for being with us. We appreciate it.

BREM: Thank you.

CHUNG: Next, a different view on today's announcement. I'll speak with a retired priest who is quite critical of the church.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, the epicenter of the priest sex scandal. The reaction from Boston.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: The scene at the Spanish Steps just a few hours ago. Welcome back to LIVE FROM ROME where it's early Thursday morning.

The U.S. cardinals have wrapped up their extraordinary meetings with the Pope. We've heard apologies and promises to end decades of abuse by some priests. Not everyone's buying it, including Richard Sipe, a retired priest and psychotherapist. He's with us now from San Diego, California.

Thank you for being with us.

RICHARD SIPE, RETIRED PRIEST: Hello, it's good to be here, Connie.

CHUNG: Mr. Sipe -- appreciate it. Mr. Sipe, do you think that the cardinals left this meeting determined to clean house?

SIPE: I think they were very determined to come up with a national policy. And I think that that is very good out of this meeting. I think this meeting was an appropriate media event because after all, the media has forced this meeting. And they are complying -- they are...

CHUNG: Well, you actually believe it was the media that forced, not the events.

SIPE: I do think that they had to respond in a very public way and a very forceful way because of the media, yes. I -- that doesn't me them insincere after all, but it certainly formed the setting in which they were going to do something. And they have taken a first step.

It's very interesting for anyone who's followed this all the way along, that the real recommendation that they are going to follow was already made in 1987 by Cardinal Maida when he was already a -- when he was bishop of Green Bay. And he addressed all the bishops on how canonically, to get rid of these priests.

So I think there's a lot of catch-up. There's a lot on the table that hasn't been addressed that probably will have to be addressed, for instance...

CHUNG: Well, I'm sure what some people might now understand is -- was presented by Cardinal Maida back in 1987, why has it taken so long to bring these guidelines to the forefront and make a national policy?

SIPE: Connie, it's because of the secret system, what has been revealed. See the indignation of people isn't just over priests who have done these horrible things to youth. It has been that the church has been complicit and covered it up, and by the way, that's not done yet. I mean the Archdiocese of Los Angeles is every bit as complicit as Boston is, and this has been the pattern over the country, to cover up as...

CHUNG: What exactly, tell me what are you accusing Cardinal Mahoney in Los Angeles then of?

SIPE: Oh, well he has cases coming up, the Baker case and several other cases coming up that have not been dealt with that there was knowledge back in 1986 of an abuser that was kept on until 1998 and there's a new accusation coming forward from that. The Stockton...

CHUNG: Tell me then, what should be done about all of these cases that go back 20 or 30 years? It was a question that the cardinals here found very difficult to answer.

SIPE: Yes. Well, accountability is the key and the Pope said we want to operate in complete transparency, and I think that that is the goal that's set before the bishops.

Now I'm still involved in a number of cases and they're being operated, they're being defended in the same old way. The victims are being harassed in the same old way. The diocese are holding back their documents in the same old way, and that's not the transparency that the Pope is asking for, and I do think that the June meeting is going to have to deal with all these issues.

CHUNG: And do you think that the Pope was forceful and very clear about what he wanted these cardinals to do and the bishops?

SIPE: Well, it certainly wasn't specific. He wants them to be Holy, which means he wants them to follow the rule of celibacy, and the problem of course if not celibacy. It's non-celibate behavior, and the non-celibate behavior of priests and bishops does not end with sexually abusing minors. It goes all the way up. There are still unsolved problems, unaddressed problems, and it's very interesting that the function keeps coming back to, "oh, we're going to do better screening" as if bad people are coming into the church and corrupting it. Corruption sexually comes from the top down, not the bottom up, and the reform movement...

CHUNG: All right, thank you so much, Mr. Sipe.

SIPE: Sure, you're welcome.

CHUNG: I hate to interrupt. I thank you so much for being with us. A big question mark going into these meeting was Cardinal Bernard Law, would he resign? The Archbishop of Boston has come under fire for the way he dealt with priests accused of abuse. He did not resign, and did not participate in the news conference that followed the meetings here in Rome. CNN's Martin Savidge gauges reaction back in Boston. Martin.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Connie. It's interesting, while that news conference was taking place in Rome, the big question that was being asked here at the Archdiocese in Boston was, where was Cardinal Bernard Law?

This was, after all, a significant document. It's a historic moment. He's the man that's seen by the Catholic Church and by many Catholics to be at the eye of this emotional and religious storm that's sweeping through the church. Why wasn't he there?

Well, his staff basically said it got late. Well, that didn't satisfy many members of the media. They continued to press. "Is he ducking us" they asked? And here's how his staff attempted to answer.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONNA MORRISSEY, ARCHDIOCESE OF BOSTON: When we spoke to his eminence Cardinal Law, he participated with the other cardinals in drafting the communique, and my understanding is that it's very late over in Rome, and any further speculation as to why he was there and not there is just that, speculation. He participated in the communique, and we were on the phone to him in Rome, and there was no message intended to be sent like that.

FATHER CHRISTOPHER COYNE: Yes, he just said that it was late and they just decided that there was no need for all of them to be there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: His staff says that in no way was there any order to Cardinal Law that he should stay away from that press conference. They do point out that the Cardinal did call his staff here at the Archdiocese this afternoon. It was a short call, but he said that he remained confident in his ability to lead.

Now the cardinal may have confidence in himself, but there are many in Boston, especially amongst the Catholic community, not all, not necessarily a majority, but many who don't have that confidence. We talked to a number of them and here's how one of them summarized the feeling.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do understand what they're saying why he should stay, you know, like you did this, you need to fix this. However, I think the damage that has been done is so far gone that it kind of, it's not really fair to the victims if he does stay. He could have fixed it a long time ago, and he chose not to, and I think that maybe it is time for him to step down.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: When will we see Cardinal Law again? His travel plans said to be fluid. He will be in Philadelphia Friday for a private fundraiser. Sunday, he'll be in Boston in the public to celebrate mass at the cathedral. Connie.

CHUNG: All right thank you, Martin Savidge. When we return with LIVE FROM ROME, we'll have an interview with Delia Gallagher. She's going to have some insight as to what is going on inside the Vatican.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up, insight from a Vatican insider. What could the scandal mean for the Pope? And later, CNN's Jim Bitterman, a special walk through the Vatican. LIVE FROM ROME will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: A view of the Coliseum, just a few hours ago, and sightseers and people spending time there. We're back with LIVE FROM ROME. For days, we've been focused on this building behind me and what's been going on inside.

One who's in a position to know better than most is Delia Gallagher. She's the managing editor of "Inside the Vatican" magazine, and she's graciously agreed to stay awake long enough to join me here. Thank you. The bishops and the cardinals basically know what they want to take to Dallas for their meeting in June in terms of guidelines. Do you think that any of their ideas changed because of their meeting with the Vatican?

DELIA GALLAGHER, MANAGING EDITOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN" MAGAZINE: Well, I wouldn't necessarily say they changed. I think actually they probably received reinforcement for whatever their ideas already were, and indeed we can see that the Vatican has attempted to show their great support. Cardinal McCarrick used the term fraternity, this idea of working together as a brotherhood.

And two examples of this support directly from the Holy Sea, which could be considered a change in a certain sense, is that they will review the national guidelines directly at the Holy Sea and the various congregations.

And secondly, that they will do something which is unprecedented as far as I know, apostolic visitations to seminaries, which is a major change.

CHUNG: You mean the Vatican will actually send representatives to seminaries?

GALLAGHER: Yes, apostolic visitation of seminaries, with particular emphasis on the need for fidelity, the church's teachings especially in the area of morality. So, it seems to be a sort of support, but even a reinforcement of the church's traditional teachings on morality to the cardinals and to the American church.

CHUNG: All right. Delia, the one person who came to the forefront at this meeting was Bishop Gregory, head of the U.S. Conference of Bishops. At the current time, there is no specific church leader in the United States that people turn to as the leader of this delegation. Do you think that he's emerged in a leadership role?

GALLAGHER: Certainly in Rome he's shown himself to be a leader, a good spokesperson for the church and for the cardinals. He's been available to the press. Cardinal McCarrick has also been, I think, a leader as far as Rome is concerned. Who might emerge as a leader out of this remains to be seen.

CHUNG: Bishop Gregory brought up one issue that surprised many of us. In a moment of candor, he talked about homosexuality. Does this mean that because he talked about it, that there is a new leaf being turned, that there is reform ahead?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think again that's a question of the expectation that there might be reform of the traditional teachings, which I think very clearly came out today, that there was no discussion of reform of teachings. The homosexuality is in the context of heterosexual or homosexual, as Cardinal McCarrick said, behavior, sexual activity outside the priesthood, whether it's homosexual or heterosexual.

CHUNG: All right and one final question Delia. Do you think that the Pope was actually himself involved in the preparation of his speech, in the preparation of his views in these meetings, or was it senior cardinals and senior officials at the Vatican who were more or less passing information along and dictating what was said and what was coming out of the Vatican?

GALLAGHER: I think this is one case where the Pope was very much involved. It's seen in the fact that he's brought them all to Rome. He gave the address, which would be a standard thing for a meeting anyway with the Pope, but furthermore, he invited them back for lunch. He's very much a Pope who is -- well, he's the Pope of the youth. He goes to World Youth Day, so this is really an issue which has, I think, struck at his heart.

And so, I think he was very involved in the preparation of this. I know in the past two weeks, he has met with Cardinal Ratzinger (ph) and other cardinals or the curia to probably discuss this beforehand. So I think definitely he was certainly involved.

CHUNG: All right, Delia Gallagher, thank you so much for being with us tonight.

GALLAGHER: Thank you.

CHUNG: The cardinal in the crossfire, what's next for Boston's Bernard Law? I'll talk with the former U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican when LIVE FROM ROME continues.

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CHUNG: We've heard from the cardinal's critics and from those who are hopeful, but aren't quite sure what the meetings here accomplished. The gatherings though gave us a better understanding of what goes on behind the walls of the Vatican.

From Boston someone who knows the ins and outs a former U.S. Ambassador to the Vatican, Ray Flynn. Mr. Flynn, so happy you've joined us again after you had been with us two days ago.

RAY FLYNN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE VATICAN: Right, Connie, nice to be with you.

CHUNG: Thank you. Mr. Flynn, do you think that these meetings and the events that occurred here in Rome will restore some trust of Catholic people in the United States, the parishioners who may have been demoralized?

FLYNN: I think once the Holy Father got personally involved in this, knowing his background, his reputation, his commitment to working families, poor, needy children, I think there was a certain reassurance that this message is not, that the problem is not being taken lightly. It's gone right to the top and the person at the top is going to call the shots here, and I think you're seeing that now already.

I don't know what the specific policy will be, but this is a very positive first step in protecting pedophiles, pedophile priests who were going to prey on youngsters. It will never, hopefully ever happen again, and I think the key issue here, Connie, is that there is a solidarity, concern for the victims, which hadn't been really present for a long time.

And again, you know, one strike you're out policy is going to be debated in Houston, Texas -- Dallas, Texas, and as far as I'm concerned, one strike you're out is, when it comes to abusing minors, is one too many times.

CHUNG: Mr. Flynn, you heard I think, I hope that you were able to listen earlier. Ellen Brem who was a victim of an abusive priest was very skeptical. She's very concerned that there will still be no accountability from the top.

FLYNN: Well, I certainly, I think she has a right to feel that way. I think a lot of people feel this way. This isn't the first time this issue has been discussed. This isn't the only area of the world that this issued was discussed, so everybody has a healthy level of concern here at this point in time. But, I think the proof will be in the pudding. I think we'll all watch to see what happens at the United States Catholic Bishop's Conference in Dallas, Texas, and I think that it's incumbent on all of us, all the good people of this country, Catholics and non-Catholics, to make sure that the church adopts a policy that is going to protect victims, so what we saw happen in Boston and other areas never happens again. Look, this is a great church, many, many wonderful priests, but we also have some problems there and they've got to be dealt with.

CHUNG: Mr. Ambassador, I will address the question of Cardinal Law, because there was an undercurrent here. Since it was not brought up at these meetings, would you say that Cardinal Law will be able to go back to Boston and able to repair any damage that the Boston Diocese was experiencing?

FLYNN: Well, the people feel very disappointed the way the cardinal has handled this situation, but I think in the final analysis, the people's loyalty is not with any individual. The same with me, my loyalty is to the church. There's no crisis in our faith. There is a deep concern about how this situation has been handled.

I think that we're looking for a policy. We're looking for changes. We're looking for reform. Particularly, we're looking to make sure that what happened to these young victims never happens again, that there is justice and compensation for these victims.

And again, this isn't about personalities. I think we waste our time talking about the personalities of the church and the politics of the church. I guess what I'm looking for is a stronger church. That's where my loyalty is. That's where I think most faithful Catholics, there loyalty is to the church, not to an individual.

CHUNG: All right. Thank you. Thank you so much, Mr. Ambassador.

FLYNN: Yes, Connie.

CHUNG: We appreciate your joining us. Coming up, strolling the Pope's front yard, stay with us.

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CHUNG: Before we leave Vatican City, we thought you might like to see for yourself where everything happens. CNN's Jim Bitterman volunteered to act as your tour guide.

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Connie, everybody's always curious about what's happening inside the Vatican and, in fact, plenty happens right up here in the Pope's cobblestone front yard at St. Peter's Square.

It's here from that balcony back there that the name of the new Pope is first revealed for the public. Here the Pope holds his masses and audiences. Here that Pope John Paul II was nearly killed by an assassin's bullets. BITTERMAN (voice over): And here, that the bells toll out each passing hour of the Pope's reign, until they toll continuously to announce his death.

BITTERMAN (on camera): Those meetings between the American cardinals and the Vatican top brass took place up there in the Secretary of State's Office, and when the Pope wanted to call the cardinals in to explain exactly where he stood on the issue, he asked them over to the Papal Library, which is just here outside the Papal apartments and offices.

St. Peter's may be majestic in its design and construction, but like any other Italian piazza, it's also a place where people come to be entertained, to try to sell something, or just to relax.

A lot of people come to St. Peter's Square, trying to find that chimney that belches white smoke, when a new Pope has been elected. Well, it's right up there on the roof of the Sistine Chapel.

Here's something not everybody know, and not everybody believes, but it's said that on top of that blast back there, there are fragments of wood from the original cross, the cross that Christ was crucified on, at least that's what the guidebooks say.

A little more believable perhaps is the blast shadow, which really was designed to act as a sundial. Whether it's a Sunday blessing from his office window up there or a few steps down to St. Peter's Basilica for Papal Mass, or down to St. Peter's Square for an audience, the Pope is never more than just a short Pope mobile ride away from his ritual duties.

So when people these days talk about working from home, or setting up a home office, the Pope had one for centuries. Connie.

CHUNG: All right, Jim, thank you so much. It's been an intense three days here in Rome, and I've had an opportunity to talk to several of the cardinals who came here to the very center of their religion to face a crisis that has shaken their church. Thank you for joining us here LIVE FROM ROME. I'm Connie Chung. Good night.

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