Return to Transcripts main page
Live From...
Baghdad: Saddam's Next Move
Aired April 26, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: December 1998. U.N. weapons inspectors pull out of Iraq hours before U.S.-led bombing raids. Now, more than three years later, new high-level talks to get those inspectors back to Baghdad.
Dealing with the enemy. What can Washington do now about Saddam Hussein?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The plans to attack Iraq, there are no plans. The president hasn't issued any orders along that line yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A new approach for an old leader.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A charm offensive that has in the last few months seen President Saddam Hussein send his top ministers to Iran, a longtime enemy, and to Saudi Arabia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Spin control, Baghdad style. It's the talk of the town.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy birthday, Mr. President. It's only days until Saddam Hussein's 65th, and Baghdad is awash in reminders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Any retirement plans for the Iraqi leader? LIVE FROM BAGHDAD, Saddam's next move. Now, here's Nic Robertson.
NIC ROBERTSON, HOST: Tonight we are live in Baghdad. It is already Saturday morning here, the eve of President Saddam Hussein's 65th birthday. Already delegations have been arriving in the city. In hotels frequented by international visitors, there are fresh posters and huge birthday cakes celebrating the Iraqi leader's birthday. However, since the Iraqi leader came to power in 1979, he has faced many challenges. 1980 to '88 the Iran/Iraq War. A few years later, the Gulf War. And for the last decade, United Nations sanctions trying to force the Iraqi leader into giving U.N. weapons inspectors free and unfettered access to ensure the country no longer has, produces or stores weapons of mass destruction.
The Iraqi leader now faces, after three and a half years of those inspections faltering and stopping completely, the Iraqi leader now faces threats from the United States to topple him from power.
However, as I have found out, he has been fighting back in subtle ways.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): To say it began with this kiss would be a little misleading. However, when Saddam Hussein's right hand man, Isad Ibrahim (ph), embraced Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah at the recent Arab summit in Beirut, he appeared to be reaping the reward for Iraq's behind-the-scenes efforts to rebuild regional relations damaged in the Gulf War.
(on camera): A charm offensive that has, in the last few months, seen President Saddam Hussein send his top ministers to Iran, a longtime enemy, and to Saudi Arabia, a conduit to normalizing relations with Kuwait, and to many other Arab and Islamic nations. It is an acceleration in a decade-long drive to rehabilitate Iraq in the Arab world, an acceleration that appears to be the result of U.S. threats to topple President Saddam Hussein from power.
(voice-over): But it is not just regional acceptance President Saddam Hussein is looking for. Ministers were also dispatched to Europe to prevent a repeat of what happened before the Gulf War, where Europe became part of an international coalition behind the United States.
Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz, long an eloquent ambassador for the Iraqi leader's intentions, was sent to Russia, Iraq's biggest trading partner these days and a key player on the U.N. Security Council, if the United States is to be blocked from gathering support there.
Iraq has also been warming to the U.N. recently, removing some of the obstacles to U.N. humanitarian operations here. Iraq is now granting visas to U.N. workers, who, despite their ongoing programs here, have found it difficult to enter the country.
Significantly, also in relations with the U.N., Iraq has agreed in the last few months to discuss with U.N. officials weapons inspections, suspended since late 1998.
But perhaps most important, events playing out not far from Iraq's borders, in Israel and in the West Bank. Iraq is portraying itself as the Palestinians' principal backer, paying tens of thousands of dollars to the families of suicide bombers. This staged rally of Iraqi parliamentarians marching to the Palestinian embassy here, making the point the Palestinians and Iraq share the same common enemies, Israel and the United States. It is a message that increasingly resonates in the Arab world, and a linkage that may be blunting U.S. efforts to undermine the Iraqi president.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Despite the distractions of the Israeli/Palestinian tensions at this time, U.S. military planners at this time are preparing themselves should President Bush, and if President Bush should ask them to topple the Iraqi leader from power. However, as CNN's senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre now reports, any second Gulf War could be a lot different from the first.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If the U.S. launches "Desert Storm the Sequel," its objectives and tactics will be radically different from the massive ground invasion of 1991.
MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: This is not going to be a situation where American high technology allows us to keep our hands clean while we do the shooting and the killing from five and 10 miles away against forces that can't really target us. We're going to have to be willing to get in there and do the fighting. And it's going to be an old-fashioned kind of fighting.
MCINTYRE: Iraq's military was cut in half by the Gulf War, dropping from 955,000 troops to fewer than 400,000; from 5,500 tanks to 2,600; and from 689 combat aircraft to about 300. But what's left of the Iraqi military has been rebuilt and reorganized around a single mission, keeping Iraqi President Saddam Hussein in power.
O'HANLON: It's not clear just how much less demanding our job would be in this situation. We still might have to fight a half million Iraqis.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon is planning for urban combat. Sources say one idea is to quickly airdrop large numbers of troops into Baghdad, instead of relying on an overland invasion that might give Saddam Hussein time to escape. Sources say current plans call for about 200,000 U.S. troops overall, fewer than half the number used in Desert Storm.
The U.S. is also worried that reluctant ally Saudi Arabia might block the use of its bases and a high-tech command center. So a duplicate facility is being set up in Qatar.
BRIG. GEN. JOHN ROSA, DEPUTY OPERATIONS DIRECTOR, JOINT STAFF: We always have backups. I mean, almost everything we do in the military we've got a primary and a backup.
MCINTYRE: But Pentagon officials say any decision to attack Iraq is President Bush's. GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: The plans to attack Iraq, there are no plans. The president hasn't issued any orders along that line yet.
MCINTYRE (on camera): One other complicating factor: In 1991, the U.S. believes Iraq was deterred from using chemical or biological weapons by the threat of massive, perhaps even nuclear, retaliation. But will that threat have the same effect when Saddam Hussein knows that he is the target?
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: On Thursday, President Bush met with Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah. Top of the things on their agenda was Iraq and President Saddam Hussein.
We're joined now by CNN's White House correspondent Major Garrett. Major, what did the crown prince have to say to President Bush on this issue?
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nic, we're told by U.S. and Saudi officials that Iraq did come up, and the crown prince made it clear that Saudi Arabia considers the president's concern about Saddam Hussein, A, to be legitimate, but also drawing a distinction about weapons of mass destruction, Iraq's pursuit thereof. Crown prince informed the president that the Saudi government believes that is an arms control issue, not a war on terrorism issue.
And it's an important distinction. And the Saudi crown prince made it clear that the Saudi government believes that all matters dealing with weapons of mass destruction and inspections under U.N. auspices have to be carried out and taken up by the United Nations first, before any other kind of military activity can be contemplated, let alone endorsed by the Arab world -- Nic.
ROBERTSON: Major, what are, what impact are the events on the Middle East at this time likely to have on any potential U.S. action against Iraq?
GARRETT: Well, Nic, there's a fascinating game of chess being played out on a diplomatic level. The entire Arab world -- in the Arab summit in Beirut, two things happened. One the administration said was very positive; one they've had almost no comment on.
What was the positive development? Well, it was the Saudi peace initiative, where basically the Saudi government said if Israel withdraws to 1967 borders, it would receive full and official diplomatic recognition not just of Saudi Arabia but all the Arab world. Administration said that was a very positive development.
What was the other thing? Well, at that same Arab League summit, all Arab League nations agreed, using language almost exactly like the NATO charter, that any attack against Iraq by the United States or allied forces would be interpreted as an attack on every other Arab nation.
Now, privately, the administration is very worried about that expression of unity in the Arab world. Knows it's going to be an impediment if any military action is contemplated or carried out. And they see that as a way of the Arab League trying to check-mate the United States or at least letting it know that unless there is substantial progress between the Israeli and Palestinian situation, the United States better not expect very much Arab support for any military moves against Iraq -- Nic.
ROBERTSON: Major Garrett in Texas. Thank you very much for the update. We'll be back in a few moments with more from Baghdad.
ANNOUNCER: Next, it's been more than three years since U.N. weapons inspectors pulled out of Iraq. What's Baghdad been up to since then?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We would be naive to assume that they have not done something. We must go in with eyes open, see whether that has happened or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: And later, is Iraq stockpiling anthrax?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Iraq has the capability of producing it, and there have been continuing reports that Iraq has sustained that program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: That and other possible threats, when LIVE FROM BAGHDAD returns.
But first, what do you think? Do accusations of sponsoring terrorism against Saddam Hussein justify military action against Iraq? To take the quick vote, head to CNN.com. The AOL keyword is CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: The United Nations imposed economic sanctions against Iraq following Baghdad's August 1990 invasion of Kuwait. Those sanctions can't be lifted until U.N. inspectors determine that Iraq has dismantled its programs to build weapons of mass destruction.
ROBERTSON: Next week, Iraq's Foreign Minister Naji Sabri travels to New York to meet with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to discuss weapons inspections. The weapons inspections ended three and a half years ago when the teams were forced to pull out, faced with their efforts being thwarted by Iraqi officials obstructing them from finding out fully about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Many questions were left unanswered. As CNN's U.N. affairs correspondent Richard Roth finds out, now reports, in the intervening years many more questions have also been raised.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN U.N. AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The top U.N. weapons inspector for Iraq was in China this week. Monday in Moscow. Since assuming his post, Hans Blix has been everywhere but Iraq. Blix's revamped inspection agency has not been able to return to the job site since departing on the eve of U.S. bombing in December 1998.
HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: It would be naive to assume that they had not done something. We must go in with eyes open to see whether that has happened or not.
ROTH: For three and a half years between Iraq and the U.N., a deep diplomatic freeze on the sensitive weapons issue.
What's new now? Iraq, led by its foreign minister, is coming to New York next Wednesday for a second round of dialogue with the United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan.
(on camera): Does Iraq have to do something dramatic in this round right here with the U.N.? Are you ready to say that's it, if they don't show flexibility on inspectors?
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: I think I would prefer not to, you know, get into that. I will cross that bridge when I get there. I'm getting into negotiations, and I would expect them to come in with a constructive attitude, and I would want to make progress. I would want to see the issue resolved, hopefully next week.
ROTH (voice-over): Oh, there are issues. Unaccounted quantities of anthrax and other toxins. Inspectors like to call the biological weapons dossiers "the black hole."
CHARLES DUELFER, FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: We simply don't know where that stands, but Iraq certainly had the capability of producing it. There have been continuing reports that Iraq has sustained that program. And it is perhaps the most dangerous capability that they probably have.
ROTH: Other lingering fears? Whether Iraq has extended the range and power of missiles. And then there's the deadly nerve agent VX. Inspectors swab these missile warhead fragments, which later tested positive in labs for VX, which meant a potential aerial weaponization of the toxic agent.
(on camera): Does Iraq possess any remaining chemical or biological agents that are capable of...
MOHAMMED AL-DOURI, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Absolutely not. We reaffirmed that several times. ROTH (voice-over): Iraq could be returning to the U.N. table because of the threat of a U.S.-led attack. Some predict Baghdad will soon relent and admit inspectors. Enough cooperation would prompt the Security Council to give Baghdad what it really wants, a lifting of the sanctions. But former U.N. investigators fear that eagerness to lift sanctions could lead to weak inspections.
RICHARD SPURTZEL, FORMER CHIEF INSPECTOR, BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS: Most of the proposals for getting inspectors back into Iraq are based on the premise that any inspectors are better than none. To be blunt, that is pure garbage, just an illusion of inspections.
ROTH (on camera): There are nearly 100 unresolved weapons issues. If Iraq lets weapons inspectors back in, this Security Council, exhausted and divided after years of debate on the Iraq issue, has given Hans Blix just 60 days in which to determine what Iraq must do to prove it's disarmed.
Richard Roth, CNN, United Nations.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: In Baghdad, the Iraqi government offers journalists few opportunities to talk with their scientists. However, in the last few days CNN's Jane Arraf, who has reported extensively on this country for many years, was granted an exclusive interview with one of Saddam Hussein's scientific advisers. General Amer Al-Sa'adi is a close adviser to President Saddam Hussein. Jane Arraf questioned him about biological and chemical weapons. She began by asking him what he expects to come out of the talks next week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEN. AMER AL-SA'ADI, SCIENTIFIC ADVISER TO SADDAM HUSSEIN: Well, we're actually going there to listen to what the secretary-general has to say about an answer to questions which we have left from the last meeting. These were wide-ranging questions which cover relationship with the Security Council, including disarmament. And we are very open to hear what the plans are, how (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is difference from Unscom.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That seems to be an interesting change, because about a year ago Iraq was saying never would weapons inspectors ever come back. Now there is definitely the perception, as you seem to indicate, that Iraq could allow them back in. What's changed?
AL-SA'ADI: We have never said that. We have never said that Iraq would allow the weapon inspectors back. But we said we're open. That's why we are going there. We're open to dialogue and to be -- to hear what the secretary-general has to say, the context of future relations. And that question, we'll come to it when -- after we hear the answers.
ARRAF: Presumably being open means being open to the possible return of weapons inspectors. AL-SA'ADI: Well, we have neither accepted or rejected this.
ARRAF: Could you tell us what Iraq's main concerns would be in letting them return?
AL-SA'ADI: No. I will not say anything about that. Unscom, everything we said about unscom was true, although not many people believed us. It was a tool of the United States, a tool of their policy. Procrastination was the name of the game throughout the years. And when the United States themselves couldn't support keeping Unscom alive, they just -- they destroyed it. They destroyed Unscom. They destroyed the ongoing monitoring, and also discredited its people, as we have been saying to the world before that, that it's being used. It was used. And they couldn't cover it up.
Incidentally, I thought our interview was about the "Vanity Fair."
ARRAF: On the "Vanity Fair" it says, specifically that you, sir, were, as the head of the military industrialization committee, oversaw and are still overseeing the implication is, the development of long- range missiles, ones that could reach Tehran and Saudi Arabia. How do you respond to that?
AL-SA'ADI: Well, the "Vanity Fair" interview starts with the so- called defector claiming to be -- to have been present in a meeting sometime in the year 2000, I think January or something, if we work backward from 26 months back. That in this meeting -- and he called me, of course, that I was the chairman of the MIC, the Military Industrialization Commission, which is not true. I mean, this is public knowledge. It's on record. I left MIC in 1991 and never returned to it in that post at all.
So -- and this meeting itself, which he refers to, is a complete fiction. It's a fabrication. No such meeting took place. Nothing that he claimed to have -- that I have said -- I am supposed to have said that we are a free country now and we could do whatever we wish and that's -- and that we should be aiming to produce weapons of mass destruction, plus the means to carrying them, which are rockets of such range. It's absolute fabrication.
Someone is behind this, obviously, because they couldn't link us to -- of course, the interview goes on to talk about links to terrorism and that we are training terrorists, et cetera, which is also false. It's absolutely not true. And someone is behind this in order to establish a link between Iraq and terrorism, in addition to harboring weapons of mass destruction, which are totally untrue, all of these.
This is because they couldn't establish a link between Iraq and terrorism by other means. So it is not very difficult, even for a second-rate intelligence outfit, to cook up something from Unscom's archive, to cook up something and dress it up as something fresh, you know, new revelations about links between Iraq and terrorists, and also about Iraq restarting its weapons of mass destruction.
ARRAF: What about the refrigerators coming from the Gulf for consumer use filled with fiber-optic cables for military purposes?
AL-SA'ADI: Absolute fabrication also. There's no such thing.
ARRAF: Could it not happen, because there are really no controls on the borders now?
AL-SA'ADI: I cannot say. But this reference, you know, this particular reference, it's not true. Simply not true.
ARRAF: One of the problems that a lot of people have in the West is the idea that Iraq would actually ever voluntarily give up its weapons. This is a country where everything it says and everything it does seems to be geared to survival. So as a country that keeps talking about its right to self-defense, why would Iraq give up all the weapons?
AL-SA'ADI: Because we have committed ourselves to Resolution 687, and we have fulfilled all our obligations regarding that. And really we don't -- for self-defense, it's not necessary to have weapons of mass destruction.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: Coming up, we'll talk with former U.N. deputy chief weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer. We'll also take a look later in the program at a play that opened here tonight in Baghdad. It is a play that's adapted from a book believed to have been written by President Saddam Hussein. It is called "Zabibar and the King," and it's believed to represent the official Iraqi views on the confrontation with the U.N.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTSON: I'm joined now by former Deputy Chief U.N. Weapons Inspector Charles Duelfer in Washington. A few minutes ago, we heard Iraqi scientist Dr. Amer Al-Sa'adi explain that you, sir, were discredited. There's no secret that the Iraqi officials had problems with the U.N. mission. What problems did you run into?
DUELFER: Well, we had several problems. One was the cooperation of Iraq. For many years, Iraq denied that many of its programs even existed. You may recall that the biological weapons program was flatly denied until 1995. After Saddam Hussein's son-in-law, Hussen Khan (ph), has defected to Jordan in August of 1995 we learned further that the government had retained other programs and that it had been hiding them from us. So the questions about delay, there are a lot of reasons for it, but many of them were because of Baghdad.
ROBERTSON: When you left, exactly where did things stand on chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons? And what do you believe has happened in the intervening 3-1/2 years?
DUELFER: Well, we certainly accomplished a lot in terms of getting rid of weapons. The problem is, we couldn't get rid of all of them and we couldn't get rid of the most recent developed weapons. We had high uncertainty about the biological weapons program. What Iraq described to us was wrong. Now, that didn't prove that they retained weapon, but they certainly had the capability. They still have the people.
Chemical weapons, they were not able to account for a VX program, which is an advanced nerve agent. We had serious questions about that.
Ballistic missiles, we could not account for a small number. But it could be an important number. Beyond that they had research programs which were highly suspicious to us.
Nuclear is, of course, the most dangerous and the most serious. They have teams of scientists. We believe that they were reconstituting those teams, but it's highly unlikely that now they have a nuclear weapon, although I doubt that they've given up the intent.
ROBERTSON: What sort of language do you think is necessary to come out of those meetings with Kofi Annan next week that's going to enable future inspection teams to more thoroughly do their job?
DUELFER: Well, here's the problem. To verify thoroughly and credibly that Iraq is not continuing its programs requires extraordinary intrusiveness. Inspectors need to be able to go all kinds of places and conduct real surprise inspections.
In the life of UNSCOM, I don't think we had more than two or three genuine surprise inspections, Because Iraq seemed to know where we were going even before we did.
So you need intrusiveness. You need to be able to talk to people without Iraqi supervision. And you need the Security Council to back this up.
The problem is, what's in it for Iraq? As you've said earlier in the show, Iraq has questions about whether Washington wants to get rid of the government in its entirety anyway. Baghdad also has questions about whether they're ever going to get control of their oil revenues again.
So there's a tough bridge that has to be constructed. I frankly am dubious that the weapons inspectors will go back in under conditions where they'd be able to operate credibly.
ROBERTSON: The new head of the weapons inspection mission, Hans Blix, has said it's impossible to get 100 percent verification. Is that correct?
DUELFER: I think that's right, depending upon what you mean by 100 percent.
You can't find out where every nut and bolt is. But certainly you can find out whether there's a program in existence, and you can deter that. But to do that requires, again, a lot of on-the-ground intrusiveness. Not just at places that Iraq permits you to go, but everywhere in the country.
But he's quite correct, and he's doing, I think, a good job in preparation. His position is tough because he can do no more than Iraq will permit, and that the Security Council will firmly, strongly back up.
ROBERTSON: Charles Duelfer in Washington, thank you very much for joining us.
We'll be back shortly.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up, he's about to turn 65. But is Saddam Hussein ready to retire?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He still has a lot, he says, he wants to accomplish. Monuments to build, like this latest, a Saddam epic. That's his own fist killing that snake. It's not a snake, really. It's the United States.
ANNOUNCER: And later, fascinating details about the man the West loves to hate.
LIVE FROM BAGHDAD will return in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up, Iraq is getting ready for a party. The guest of honor, a war hero. A ghost writer. And the president of Iraq.
LIVE FROM BAGHDAD will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Saddam Hussein has been president of Iraq since 1979.
He was a general in the Iraqi military before becoming president. But here's something you may not know about him. Saddam Hussein's a lawyer. He got his degree in 1971 from the University of Baghdad.
ROBERTSON: Well, you can probably hear already the morning call to prayer. And in the headlines in some of the newspapers here, referring to the birthday of President Saddam Hussein, this paper saying, "The Birth of a Leader, a Thorn in the Side for Zionists."
The paper goes on to say that the strong should protect the weak. But after 23 years in power and coming up on his 65th birthday, CNN's Jane Arraf discovers the Iraqi leader looks set to continue at the helm of this country for some time to come.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARRAF (voice-over): Happy birthday, Mr. President. It's only days until Saddam Hussein's 65th and Baghdad is awash in reminders.
Like this three-story high photo outside the government's Rashid Hotel.
At 65, some leaders might be thinking of retiring. Not Saddam Hussein.
He still has a lot, he says, he wants to accomplish. Monuments to build, like this latest, the Saddam Epic. That's his own fist killing that snake. It's not a snake really, it's the United States and Israel.
Frequent meetings with scientists. Talks with his sons, the youngest the head of his security services; the eldest in charge of special forces.
He gives helpful suggestions to other Arab leaders. "I may exasperating," he began this speech.
That would be an understatement.
His latest advice to fellow Arab leaders, stop selling oil to the United States or risk being toppled by your own people.
He's even ghost-written a book, "Zabibah and the King." It's been turned into an epic play that debuts for his birthday. The king and her, of course, is thought to be the Iraqi president.
No matter what his role, publicly he's always the hero. This birthday portrait collection at the Rashid Hotel captures his many moods. Kurdish dress is a popular theme. Then there's the hunting look, and the visionary. That's Jerusalem's al-Aqsa Mosque in the distance.
In fact, that's the al-Aqsa Mosque, the third holiest Muslim site, as a birthday cake.
No candles, but it's surrounded by icing, and topped by the number 28, the day of the president's birthday.
The paintings are as close as most people will ever get to seeing the long-surviving Iraqi president. In the portraits, at least, he gets only better with age, never older.
Jane Arraf, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up, Saddam Hussein, the man. What drives the leader whose favorite movies are "The Godfather" and "Old Man and the Sea."
LIVE FROM BAGHDAD returns in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: He's vilified by many in the West, but he's also a family man.
Saddam Hussein has two sons, and three daughters.
ROBERTSON: From Los Angeles now, I'm joined by Mark Bowden, an author who has interviewed many of Iraq's dissidents over the years.
Mark, welcome. Thank you for joining us.
We've heard a little about Saddam Hussein's humble upbringings. He was born about 100 miles north of Baghdad.
What was there in the early year years of his life that indicated he might rise to such power?
MARK BOWDEN, AUTHOR: Well, Saddam is a son of a rural village in Tikrit, and he managed to educate himself at a fairly young age.
And he was also, you know, as a young man, a revolutionary. He joined the Baath party and was a part of actually several conspiracies to overthrow the government, including a couple different assassination attempts.
ROBERTSON: But what is it in his early life, though, that's really shaped the man that we see today?
BOWDEN: Well, I think that in order to understand Saddam, you have to understand that in those Iraqi villages, the way that any kind of local government is structured is very patriarchal.
There tends to be a single clan or family that has the most power and seizes the resources and the better land, and they tend to distrust outsiders. They tend to try to accumulate power for its own sake, which is spread out amongst their family and in their villages.
So Saddam comes out of this very sort of tribal, patriarchal world, and I think, of course, he's now acting that out on a much, much larger scale.
ROBERTSON: And what is his daily life like these days? What would an average day be for the Iraqi leader?
BOWDEN: Well, I'm told that Saddam sleeps only about four or five hours a night. And he varies the location where he sleeps on a daily basis so that probably he doesn't even know when he wakes up in the morning exactly where he's going to sleep.
He always begins his day with swims. He's got a bad back, and so he swims laps to keep in shape, and as therapy for his back.
And then he begins a long day of meetings at wherever he sets up in one of the palaces to sort of hold court.
He takes naps sometimes in the middle of the day. He takes breaks to go on long walks. The doctors have told him that for his back they'd like him to walk two hours a day, although he doesn't manage to do that much.
He eats well -- food that's flown in for him from Europe, and cooked by chefs who've been trained in Europe.
So, that's pretty much the way he spends his days.
ROBERTSON: How much does his security concerns dictate how he lives his life?
BOWDEN: Well, Saddam lives, basically, at the center of an elaborate security apparatus, and it dictates just about everything that he does.
It's kind of curious -- you would think that someone who had amassed that much power would have a great deal of freedom, but I think it actually works the opposite. I think the more powerful you become, the less freedom you have.
And Saddam, in particular, because he has so many enemies within his own country, and also outside it, needs to be conscious all the time of his security and elaborate games are played by his security forces to make sure that nobody knows exactly where he is.
ROBERTSON: It's interesting you talk about his enemies inside and outside the country, because at the moment it appears as if he's making up with his enemies outside the country. Do you really think Saddam Hussein can change and do this?
BOWDEN: No, I don't. I think Saddam -- it's very clear that his interests are in maintaining his power in Iraq, but also in setting himself up to be a leader of all of the Arab people.
He sees himself as a heroic figure in the Arab world. And he also believes that in the long run, Arab culture, and Arab society, and Arab religion will basically dominate the planet. And when that day comes, he hopes to be looked back on as one of the great figures in Arab history.
ROBERTSON: Mark, the life the Iraqi president leads is very removed from his people. Do you believe, having talked to the defectors you've met, the president here believes that his people love him?
BOWDEN: I don't think he can believe that to a large extent.
He certainly knows that there are many people in Iraq who would like to kill him, Or would like to have him overthrown. And I think that's why he takes such elaborate security precautions.
But he probably believes that a silent majority, or, you know, most everyday Iraqis revere him and respect him. And he's probably right, I think to a large extent.
People who have had him as their leader for so long identify him with their nation. And i, you know, I've never seen a poll, because I doubt you could do such a thing in Iraq, but I suspect that he does have fairly, you know, widespread support in that country from his own people.
ROBERTSON: Mark Bowden in Los Angeles. Thank you very much for joining us. And thank you for your insights.
We'll be back with more from LIVE FROM BAGHDAD shortly.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Baghdad is an ancient city. It dates back some 6,000 years to the times of Babylon.
Today nearly six million people call Baghdad home. It's one of the largest cities in the Middle East.
ROBERTSON: I first came here almost 12 year years ago, not long after Iraq invaded Kuwait.
At that time, I was an engineer. I helped CNN's Peter Arnett, John Holliman and Bernard Shaw report the opening of the Gulf War from the al-Rashid Hotel.
At that time, censorship was strict. These days, when we go out for our reporting, we're still accompanied by officials from the Iraqi Ministry of Information.
However, there is an improving sense of freedom with those officials. And we're allowed to videotape more of what we want to.
What I have -- coming here in the various roles, producer before correspondent, over the years, I've seen the situation change here.
The last time I was here was 1998. In the four years since then, this time I've seen more cranes on the horizon of Baghdad, as mosques are being built. I see a new transmitter mart being put up not far from here, as well as palaces for President Saddam Hussein.
The country appears to be clawing its way back from desperate times. The people, a little more upbeat. The streets, a little tidier.
However, looks can be deceiving.
Outside the bustling streets of the city, the poor, and perhaps poorer. Their access to good education, to good health care, to good water supplies, are limited. For many people here, the daily grind goes on.
What will happen in the next few weeks in the talks at the U.N. could perhaps turn a corner for the people of Iraq. The next few weeks will no doubt make that clear.
Thank you for watching. That's all from LIVE FROM BAGHDAD. I'm Nic Robertson. Please stay tuned for LARRY KING LIVE. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
