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Bush Announces Cabinet-level Post for Homeland Security

Aired June 06, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Now on LIVE FROM WASHINGTON, a massive reorganization of the government to strengthen the nation's security against terrorism. Minutes from now, President Bush reveals sweeping proposals.

The highlight, a new cabinet office to steer homeland defense, bringing scores of agencies all under one roof to better battle terrorists.

Will the president's plan fly on Capitol Hill?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what the American people need. We need a harmonized agency that is streamlined and responsible.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: To have the office of homeland security merely be a figurehead makes no sense. To give that office cabinet status is a first step but it's not enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: On the hot seat, FBI chief Mueller gets a grilling in Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: I'm asking whether you were consulted. That's all I'm asking you.

ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: I think the president is entitled to make whatever announcement he's going to make tonight.

BIDEN: Has he spoken to you about this?

MUELLER: Again, senator...

BIDEN: I think this is ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And an FBI whistleblower tells her story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLEEN ROWLEY, FBI AGENT: And the worst is micromanaging, and I can name a few cases where these just became disastrous.

ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM WASHINGTON, strengthening homeland security. Now, Wolf Blitzer and Paula Zahn.

PAULA ZAHN, HOST: And good evening. Thanks so much for joining Wolf and me tonight. The White House is calling it the most dramatic government overhaul since World War II, a reorganization of government agencies to better protect the U.S. from terrorism.

WOLF BLITZER, HOST: And in only five minutes, President Bush goes before the American people to outline his plans. In the next hour we'll have live coverage of the president's address and reaction to his words from key members of Congress.

We will also be going one-on-one with White House chief of staff Andy Card. We'll also look at a dramatic day in Congress, as FBI chief Robert Mueller was in the hot seat, and FBI whistleblower Coleen Rowley had her day before senators as well.

But first, to get a preview of the president's plan to strengthen homeland security, let's go to CNN senior White House correspondent John king, who is standing by at the White House. Good evening, John. What have you learned?

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The president, in just a few moments, will make about an 11-minute speech to the nation, we are told. He will unveil this plan, to create the new Department of Homeland Security. This plan hatched in secrecy over the last several months. We're told all the cabinet chiefs affected told only in the past 48 hours that some of them would be losing major agencies and billions of dollars out of their budgets if the president gets his way to Congress.

Hatched in secrecy because of the sensitivity of all of this. But the president will make the case in this televised address tonight. We are told that he believes this reorganization, the biggest changes in the federal government since just after World War II, would be a critical weapon in the war on terrorism.

One excerpt from the president's speech already out tonight, he will urge the American people, quote, "to support him, and so tonight I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission, securing the American homeland and protecting the American people."

This new cabinet agency would have four major missions. Number one, improving transportation and border security. Also, emergency preparedness for terror strikes, deterring chemical, biological and nuclear attacks, and collecting and analyzing intelligence about terrorist threats.

Many believe that the most important aspect, and the new intelligence clearinghouse will analyze information not only from the FBI, not only from the CIA, but also from tips and sources, evidence collected by the border patrol and the customs service, the drug enforcement administration, the secret service and state and local law enforcement efforts.

Here the president proposing to move major agencies. The Coast Guard would come from the Transportation Department into this new office of homeland security, Department of Homeland Security.

The Secret Service would move, the Immigration Service. A major restructuring of the government. Again, the president will portray this as urgent to the ongoing war on terrorism. Some critics already questioning some of the specifics. This is a very turf conscious town. Look for a fight in the weeks ahead, Mr. Bush hoping to get the upper hand by selling this plan directly to the American people in just a few minutes.

ZAHN: All right. Thanks, John, for the preview -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And there's already been extensive bipartisan support for the president's proposal. Let's get a little bit more on that from our congressional correspondent, Jonathan Karl -- Jon.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, and here's why. On the Republican side, Republicans who might be expected to be skeptical about an expansion of the bureaucracy have been courted directly by the president on this. Last night the first people in Congress he told about this at the White House were Trent Lott and Dennis Hastert.

The top two Republicans in Congress met with the president personally at the White House, and the president reassured them that this is not an expansion of the federal bureaucracy but merely a reorganization. He gave that message -- the vice president gave that message to a broader group of the Republican leadership this morning.

On the Democratic side, the Democrats have enthusiastically embraced this idea because, quite simply, they say they were the ones to first propose it. Joe Lieberman, who has been talking about this almost since immediately after September 11, came to the cameras today to say yes, this is great. I'm glad the president is finally agreeing with me on this.

So Joe Lieberman and other Democrats have come out and said yes, they support it. But, Wolf, a little reality check here. I've got a chart that I can show you. This is a chart that is included in the president's plan. It is a chart of the 88 committees and subcommittees that claim some kind of jurisdiction over the homeland defense duties that would be included in this new department. So you can imagine an incredible turf war among committees to try to get this through. As one person said, the war on terrorism has now become a war on turf -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jonathan Karl, also here on Capitol Hill joining Paula and me.

(PRESIDENT BUSH'S SPEECH FOLLOWED BY COMMENTS) BLITZER: The president certainly did outline the broad strokes of this plan, but his aides are now going to get into all the details. Our senior White House correspondent John King is over at the White House and he's been following this. You've been well briefed already, John. Give us some of the details that the president left out of that 11-minute address.

KING: What you have now are functions that are in nine cabinet departments, the Defense Department, the Dtate Department the Treasury Department, the Justice Department, the Energy Department, the Agriculture Department being confined, if the president gets his way, under one roof, and top aides here will tell you -- and I know you'll speak to the White House chief of staff in just a few minutes -- they believe this is a much more efficient way to run the homeland security operation and to learn the lessons of September 11.

You just spoke of a midterm correction. I think what Andy Card will tell you in just a few minutes is that they have been hatching this for months, yes, in public saying they oppose the creation of a cabinet agency, in recent weeks saying they were more open to the creation of a cabinet agency, learning the lessons of September 11 and hatching this plan in secret because they understand the sensitivity.

Many cabinet agencies now being told to give up billions of dollars in spending, thousands of employees. Eighty-eight committees in Congress oversee all this right now. Paula showed you one of the complicated charts. There are others as well. You need to convince people who like their fiefdoms, like their money, like their oversight, like being called Mr. Chairman, to give up responsibilities.

Presumably only three or four committees would have oversight under such a new department. So this plan hatched in secret. The challenge now is selling it. You're right, critics will say why did you say no to a cabinet agency a few weeks or a few months ago, and why are you doing it just now as Congress looks into the intelligence lapses before September 11.

But the administration beginning now to selling this after hatching this plan in secret. So far they say they are encouraged. They expect some resistance on Capitol Hill. We know the president told cabinet chiefs here at the White House this morning he does not want any griping coming out of his cabinet agencies. He wants them to be 100 percent in support of all this.

BLITZER: John King at the White House, thank you very much. You know, Paula, as we assess what the president said, the enormity of this new homeland security cabinet level department, it's going to take a lot of time to appreciate how difficult it is to move this federal government in ways -- it is almost like the Titantic, a big aircraft carrier moving on the high seas. It's not going to be that easy.

ZAHN: It's interesting to note that Ted Kennedy said earlier today, the question is whether shifting the deck chairs on the titantic is the way to go, which also led people to question whether it's possible not to tack on any additional cost to the government in making this sweeping change. Joining us right now is Andy Card, who is the White House chief of staff. Good to see you again, sir. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

ZAHN: Joining us right now is Andy Card, who is the White House chief of staff.

Good to see you again, sir.

ANDREW CARD, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Good to see you.

ZAHN: Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

CARD: Thank you.

ZAHN: So we're hearing a muted chorus of "It is about time." Can you explain to the American public tonight why the president resisted this for a while, and what led to his changing his mind?

CARD: Well, first of all, he didn't resist it. He appointed Tom Ridge as the national security -- the homeland security adviser on October -- on September 20, and he was sworn in on October 6, and showed up on work on October 8.

He was given a charge by the president, first to secure the homeland, and then to review all of the government to see what the government should do to reorganize to meet the threats of the 21st century.

He said that right from the start that he -- his mind was open, he was going to look at everything, including creating a department. And what he did not want to have happen is for Tom Ridge to be preoccupied by having to testify to Congress as an adviser to the president while he was trying to secure the homeland.

Tom Ridge has now made a recommendation to the president to create a department of homeland security -- very, very serious recommendation. We found a tremendous need to have a department that would have as its sole mission directing the security of the homeland.

You know, all of these 100-odd entities that are in the federal government that were involved in homeland security were not able to take as their top mission protecting the homeland. Now, with a new department, that mission will be one. And it will be directed by the secretary of homeland security.

There will still be a homeland security adviser in the White House to make sure that the interagency process can be coordinated to meet the threats. After all, the homeland security secretary would probably need the support of the Defense Department, the Health and Human Services Department, the Veterans Affairs Department, if there were a tragic attack on America.

But we know that now that we have a department that has been proposed to Congress, we can have Congress be part of the solution. They've got to step up and make the tough decisions that were made in the executive branch to consolidate some of the responsibilities in Congress and get a department in place that can help to secure the homeland, and we hope they'll do it quickly.

ZAHN: We're looking at one of the organizational charts that will give our audience an idea of just what a challenge it is for the administration to try to make sense of bringing these eight agencies together under a Cabinet-level agency.

Can you explain to us tonight how having this under a single agency will simplify your ability to collate information, analyze information?

CARD: Well, we found that of these over 100 entities in the federal government that had a homeland security responsibility, none of them had as their primary responsibility securing the homeland. And so we were finding that they would take on other missions that weren't really the top priority of this administration right now, to protect the homeland.

Secretary Ridge -- I'm sorry -- Governor Ridge is someone who brought agencies together without congressional authority, but with the imprimatur of the president to make things happen. And we are a much more secure nation today thanks to the president's ability to bring a homeland security conscience to the executive branch of government. Now he's called for a department to be created so that we can drive that mission down efficiently into every agency that has a responsibility.

You know, the complications of crossing our border make it very difficult for us to be efficient as we move products and commerce, but we also have to make sure it's secure, that we don't bring terrorists in, or bombs into this country. And this new department will bring that efficiency to reality.

ZAHN: You just referred to Governor Ridge as Secretary Ridge. Is there something we should read into that?

CARD: Well, he does a great job. And he's been a terrific homeland security adviser. And he gave up an awful lot when he left Pennsylvania and the secure position as governor of that commonwealth to come to Washington, D.C. to lead this effort to, first of all, secure the homeland and, second of all, to advise the president on how to best organize the executive branch of government.

But he will take on this mission of making sure this department becomes a reality, and he'll also work to make sure that we have a -- continue to have a secure homeland.

ZAHN: One last question for you tonight, sir. I know your administration has referred to this as an agency with -- that it will be budget-neutral. Can you really assure the American public this evening that this change will not cost them more in taxpayers' dollars?

CARD: Well, first of all, the goal is to secure the homeland. It's to protect the people in the United States. This is not about money.

The good news is that by bringing coordination to all of these functions, we will probably save a lot of money and allow for more money to be spent on front-line fighters who are protecting our border.

But the goal here is not necessarily about budgets and people. It's about protecting the homeland. And this agency will protect the homeland. It will do so with great effectiveness and greater efficiency. And we're confident that the money is there.

The president proposed $37.1 billion in the budget for fiscal year 2003, and that is enough money to create this department and meet the functions and responsibilities that the department has. We're taking agencies from existing departments within the government, pulling them under one unified command where they can work with greater efficiency and with the greatest sense of what is right and what their job is.

So we think this will work best for the country. We had a good system in place when Governor Ridge came in to coordinate our homeland security response. And this is the best system that we can offer for the federal government.

ZAHN: And Andrew, Wolf wants to jump in here.

BLITZER: Mr. Card, very briefly, just to clarify this. Will Governor Ridge be the president's nominee to become secretary of this department, or will he remain as the adviser inside the White House?

CARD: Wolf, you know that the most important thing is to protect the homeland. We do not have a department of homeland security today, the president has proposed it. Congress has to consider the president's recommendations and act on them. We hope they act quickly. It's imperative that they act quickly.

And I think it would be premature to predict who the secretary of homeland security would be. Let's get Congress to work to create the department. And we're challenging them to do so in this legislative session.

BLITZER: OK, Andy Card, the White House chief of staff. Thank you very much for joining us.

CARD: Thank you.

BLITZER: And on Capitol Hill today, there was dramatic testimony from an FBI whistle-blower. Coleen Rowley told the Senate Judiciary Committee the agency is rife with roadblocks to investigations and endless, needless paperwork. Here is CNN's Justice correspondent Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): FBI whistle-blower Coleen Rowley was just as open and as candid in person as she appeared to be in her 13-page letter to FBI Director Robert Mueller.

COLEEN ROWLEY, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: I never really anticipated this kind of impact when I wrote this letter to Director Mueller over two weeks ago. I don't know if you know. I think they've been saying I anguished over this a week. It wasn't even quite a week that I -- it was more like a three-day period, and it was a fairly sleepless three-day period when I began to initially just jot down my thoughts.

ARENA: The 21-year agent said there are at least seven to nine levels of bureaucracy at work throughout the FBI, a number she calls ridiculous. She talked about a culture of inaction and of not being able to challenge authority.

ROWLEY: We have a culture in the FBI that there is a certain pecking order, and it's pretty strong. And it's very rare that someone picks up the phone and calls a rank or two above themselves.

ARENA: Rowley works in the Minneapolis field office, which last August alerted FBI headquarters about Zacarias Moussaoui, who investigators now believe was supposed to be the 20th hijacker. She complained bitterly in a letter last month to Director Mueller that FBI had thwarted her office's attempts to search Moussaoui's computer.

Earlier before the same committee, Director Mueller admitted the FBI made mistakes in both handling the Moussaoui case and the so- called Phoenix memo, warning of suspected terrorists at U.S. flight schools.

MUELLER: The need for change was apparent even before September 11, and has become more urgent since then.

ARENA: Mueller reassured members of Congress there would be no retribution against Rowley. Mueller also said he does not believe that the 9/11 attacks would have been disrupted if a search warrant had been granted for Moussaoui's computer.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), NORTH CAROLINA: Based upon the information that you do have, do you believe that information could have have disrupted the operation?

MUELLER: I do not believe that it is likely that it would have.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Another problem that Rowley addressed was the FBI's antiquated computer system, a system that Director Mueller admits won't be up to par until another two to three years -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Kelli, the fact is, though, Senator Specter, other members of the Judiciary Committee say that's simply not acceptable, to wait two or three years to get the FBI's computer system up to par. The pressure must be enormous on the FBI to do something about that.

ARENA: The pressure has been enormous, Wolf, way before this latest challenge. When we heard about the problems with the computer system back during the Robert Hanssen spy saga. This is a system that is so outdated that to be brought up to speed to do the things that the FBI needs it to do, to analyze information, it is going to take that long. And pressure or no, this is something that's going to take a lot of money and, unfortunately, time.

BLITZER: Kelli Arena, our justice correspondent, thank you very much -- Paula.

ZAHN: And still to come, we will have some congressional reaction. We'll be checking in with Senator Grassley and Senator Lieberman to see what they had to think of the plan that the president revealed to the American public tonight in his address. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Tonight I propose a permanent cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security, to unite essential agencies that must work more closely together. Among them, the Coast Guard, the Border Patrol, the Customs Service, immigration officials, the Transportation Security Administration and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Employees of this new agency will come to work every morning knowing that their most important job is to protect their fellow citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our special coverage. Paula, let's get some congressional reaction now, especially from a key member of the Senate. Joining me now, Senator Joe Lieberman, the chairman of the Senate Government Affairs Committee.

Senator Lieberman, you have been calling for many of these changes for weeks and weeks and weeks. The White House was resisting. You have to give the president some credit now, I assume, for accepting a lot of these proposed changes.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: Oh, well, I do indeed, Wolf. Look, Senator Arlen Specter and I and a bipartisan group from both chambers introduced legislation to create a Department of Homeland Security last fall, and I wish we had been able to all put it together and get it enacted then, but I'm very grateful the president has made this proposal tonight. I think the sooner we get it adopted, the sooner the American people can feel safer.

The position that Tom Ridge was given is the most important and difficult one in the federal government today, but he wasn't given any power to get the job done. It wasn't working. And I think this will help him make it work.

BLITZER: How long will it take the Congress to pass the legislation required to first of all create this new Department of Homeland Security?

LIEBERMAN: Wolf, the bill that I had just referred to was actually favorably reported out of my committee, the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, two weeks ago. So it's really ready for Senate action. This is a decision up to the leaders, but as soon as we get the president's proposal and blend it with ours, it's really quite close.

I'd like to get this right to the floor sometime this summer and get it enacted because every day (UNINTELLIGIBLE) over uncoordinated agencies with responsible for homeland security is a day when the American people are more vulnerable than they should be.

BLITZER: It should sail through. You obviously have no doubt about that, but do you believe that Governor Ridge is the man for the job to become the secretary, if the president does go ahead and nominate him?

LIEBERMAN: I have high regard for Governor Ridge, and obviously the decision is up to the president. If he chooses Governor Ridge, I'm sure he'll sail through.

I do want to say that there may be a battle in Congress. There shouldn't be, but now that we've got a bipartisan group in the Congress together with the president on the same side, the opposition may come from the bureaucracy, which even in a time of crisis, post September 11, I'm afraid may try to protect its turf, and it will have some allies in Congress.

So this one's not over until we get it passed through Congress and signed by the president, and the sooner the better.

BLITZER: Well, explain to our viewers, Senator Lieberman, how that's possible that bureaucrats in the executive branch of the government could slow down or stop what the president today announced he wants and he wants to see it fully implemented by January 1.

LIEBERMAN: It's a real good question. So many agencies have advocates in Congress. They have constituencies out among the public, and they can use their influence to try to say, gee, this is a great idea except we don't really belong here. We deserve to be where we've been all along.

That can't go. We've got to have the same sense of outrage and purpose that we had in the days after September 11, and that's got to be much more dominant in our minds and hearts than any opposition from the bureaucracy or those who are their advocates in Congress.

BLITZER: You heard the president say, Senator Lieberman, that he doesn't believe that the events of September 11 could have been prevented, based on everything he knows right now. Do you agree with him?

LIEBERMAN: I don't think we know enough to reach that conclusion. I mean, unfortunately, even from what we know, the memos from the FBI, the CIA information, foreign intelligence information, it frankly does make me wonder whether if all of that had been put together, we could have taken some action that could have prevented this by stopping people from entering, the terrorists from entering the country, by securing the cockpits in every plane that was flying in the United States.

But I'll tell you, give me the chance to make a pitch for the bill that John McCain and I put in last December. We still need an independent, non-political commission to do a no-holds-barred look back at what happened before September 11, to tell us what caused, what contributed to the vulnerability that the terrorists took advantage of on September 11, to hold some people accountable if necessary, but mostly to make sure that we can prevent anything like September 11 attacks from happening again.

We don't have to accept that as inevitable in the United States of America. We're the strongest country in the world, the richest country in the world. We've got the resources to protect our people.

BLITZER: Senator Lieberman, thanks for joining us. The president still disagrees with you on that point...

LIEBERMAN: Right.

BLITZER: ...as far as an independent commission is concerned, but he obviously has an ability to change his mind if he wants to do that.

LIEBERMAN: So let's hope he does on that one too.

BLITZER: Senator Lieberman, thanks so much.

LIEBERMAN: Thanks, Wolf.

ZAHN: It's interesting you used the phrase "changed his mind" because his chief of staff, Andrew Card, made it very clear to us tonight that he doesn't see this as a change of heart. He said the president has had a very open mind about this for the last nine months, but there are people who remember the president saying he wasn't interested in creating this new agency.

BLITZER: And there's a lot of Republicans on Capitol Hill, Paula, as you well know, who went way out and said there's no need for this full department. Now they're changing their minds very, very quickly.

ZAHN: We'll let you make all the assessments out there and see who you think is telling you the real deal here. Homeland defense in the heartland -- when we come back, we're going to talk homeland defense with a senator from Iowa, Charles Grassley. LIVE FROM WASHINGTON returns in just a moment. Please stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: On September 20, President Bush announced the creation of the Office of Homeland Security. Tom Ridge was sworn in as director of homeland security on October 8.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We are now learning that before September the 11th, the suspicions and insights of some of our front line agents did not get enough attention. My administration supports the important work of the intelligence committees in Congress to review the activities of law enforcement and intelligence agencies.

We need to know when warnings were missed or signs unheeded, not to point the finger of blame, but to make sure we correct any problems and prevent them from happening again. Based on everything I've seen, I do not believe anyone could have prevented the horror of September the 11th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: You've just been listening to the president filling the American public in on some of his proposals for sweeping changes in homeland security efforts, the administration calling it the largest overhaul and dramatic government restructuring since 1947.

And for more reaction now to President Bush's proposal to reform homeland security, we are joined now by Senator Charles Grassley, a Republican member of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Good to see you, sir. Thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R-IOWA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Glad to be with you, Paula.

ZAHN: Folks have been following lately. They know that you have been highly critical of the FBI, the way it works, the way it doesn't work. Do you think this new agency will change that culture of arrogance that you have pointed out in your words?

GRASSLEY: Well, it's an opportunity with a fresh start for, you know, a whole new team to come in and do things and overcome some of the bureaucratic tendency to maintain the status quo and prevent change. But, you know, it's got to be based upon a new team of people with a whole new drive and a whole new goal.

ZAHN: I know you say that this agency has to overcome bureaucratic tendencies. You colleague, Senator Ted Kennedy, had earlier today said this about the new agency: "The question is whether shifting the deck chairs on the Titanic is the way to go." How do you not create more Washington bureaucracy with this move to basically bring eight different agencies under the heading of a new cabinet level agency?

GRASSLEY: It does sound like kind of a hodgepodge, doesn't it? I think though that you got to look at it this way. There's two issues to be involved. One, whether the agency itself is going to be anything really different in the end result, but the second thing is, in the process of creating it and you bring in functions from other departments, I'm going to make sure you bring the money with it so that this isn't used as an excuse to grow government. We should be able to do this without one penny more or even saving money.

ZAHN: Senator, do you really believe that? I know that Andrew Card, the president's chief of staff said earlier this evening, he actually thinks in some cases, some of these agencies will save money and then that money will be re-designated to other areas. Do you think you can assure the American public that this change won't cost them any more money?

GRASSLEY: I can not assure the American public that. I can only commit to my approval of this, based upon functions coming out of other departments into a new department, the money following those programs, so that there's no additional money used. That seems to me if we can't do that, it shouldn't be done.

ZAHN: In closing tonight, some have questioned the timing of the president's announcement, some basically alleging that the president made this announcement sooner than he wanted to deflect attention away from the Congressional hearings that he's been involved in. Is there any truth to that?

GRASSLEY: Well all I can do is hope that the White House has not used this as a way of detracting from legitimate congressional oversight of the FBI, because everybody knows that things aren't right at the FBI, and besides, what's wrong with the FBI President Bush can't be blamed for, Director Mueller can't be blamed for. These things have been developing over a decade, decade and a half and a lot of it even under President Clinton and Louie Freeh. So, you know, he doesn't have to be in that mode if he is.

ZAHN: Sir, we just have about 15 seconds left. What do you want the American public to know, the most important things to come out of these hearings today?

GRASSLEY: The most important thing is, will the culture of the FBI change from a culture of Bonnie and Clyde and solving bank robberies to a culture of prevention of crime that will be based upon fighting terrorism and bin Laden?

ZAHN: Senator Grassley, thanks so much for joining us tonight. We know you've had a very long day.

GRASSLEY: Thank you.

BLITZER: We have had a long day. All of us had a long day. I did speak with one member of the Bush cabinet today. He did say the announcement of this reform was accelerated. It was supposed to come a little bit later down the road. We'll pick that up later and follow up on that little point when we take the next break. Paula, even before September 11th, long before September 11th, there was a bipartisan commission that warned about the threat of terrorism.

When we come back, we'll talk to the co-chairman of that commission. LIVE FROM WASHINGTON will be right back.

ANNOUNCER: The creation of a new cabinet position needs congressional approval. There are now 14 cabinet secretaries. The last cabinet agency created was the Veteran's Affairs Department back in 1989.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: We have a lot more coming up, and when we come back, Paula, we have someone who predicted a lot of this kind of disaster long before it was fashionable but unfortunately not many people paid attention. When we come back, we'll speak with former Senator Gary Hart. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: America's leading the civilized world in a Titanic struggle against terror. Freedom and fear are at war and freedom is winning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Many months before September 11, a bipartisan commission issued a report warning there was a significant and growing threat of terrorism on U.S. soil and calling for sweeping changes in government policies. Former Senator Gary Hart was a co-chairman of that commission. He joins me now live from New York. Senator Hart, how impressed are you by what the president said tonight?

GARY HART, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Well, to the degree I may presume to speak for the other 13 members of the commission, I think it's safe to say we're deeply gratified that the president has reached the conclusion that he has and will implement the principal recommendation we made to him some 16 months ago.

It is what needs to be done to make this country more secure and one hopes that the Congress will cooperate and move this legislation quickly.

BLITZER: Do you believe that will happen? You know Washington obviously quite well.

HART: I can't believe that the president says this is in the national security interest and important to protect 280 million Americans, that members of Congress will try to protect their turf. I know this is kind of inside Washington talk, but if the president sits across the table from his cabinet and says to them, "Gentlemen, I want this done," then I can't imagine any one of those cabinet secretaries trying to hold on to a piece of their bureaucracy.

And on the issue, by the way, you've been discussing throughout the evening about cost, we've already allocated $38 billion new dollars, new dollars to this effort. So yes, we've already made that decision. It will cost more money.

BLITZER: Do you believe, Senator Hart, that this new department could be off and running by January 1, as the president would like to see it happen?

HART: Oh, I think it could be off and running by July the 1st if the government put its mind to it. If this decision had been made last October, this department would be functioning very, very well right now.

BLITZER: How shocked are you, because I know a lot of people that I've been talking to are shocked, that the FBI's computer system is so old that these agents have hard times communicating via e-mail with each other?

HART: Well, that's shocking, but it's also shocking nine months after the first attack, and I underscore the first attack, that the Coast Guard Customs Service and Border Patrols still do not have a common database or a common communication system, and they are the first line of defense.

So there are plenty of problems that need to be resolved in this government, and I hope the executive branch and the legislative branch will get on with it very, very quickly.

BLITZER: Your recommendations that you came out with, what 16 months ago -- Warren Rudman, the former Senator, was your co-chairman, widely ignored. How frustrated are you that that happened?

HART: I don't think it's of any interest to anyone how frustrated we are. We tried very hard to meet with Governor Ridge, eventually were successful at doing so, offered our support. I must say there were members of Congress as early as February, March of 2001, particularly Congressman Mac Thornberry of Texas, who did introduce legislation to bring this about, and they were frustrated from a variety of different sources, but I think they're now being proved prophetic in their own right.

BLITZER: Some pessimists are suggesting it will take, God forbid, another terror horror to really get the federal government moving in the direction on homeland security it needs to move. Are you among those?

HART: No, I think the president just made, turned a very big corner tonight. I thought it probably would take another terror attack to cause this to happen, and I think it's amazing, frankly, that in the last nine months we haven't suffered a second attack. I am absolutely convinced that we will, and I don't think we're prepared for it today.

BLITZER: Senator Hart, thanks so much.

HART: My pleasure.

BLITZER: Paula, do you have a question?

ZAHN: Yes, before we let you get out of the studio there, who would you like to see head up this new agency?

HART: Somebody with a sense of urgency. I don't think the individual matters so much as the command authority of that individual, the ability of that individual to exercise command authority and bring these pieces together and make it very clear to everybody that this individual, man or woman, is indeed in charge and accountable both to the president and the Congress and the American people.

ZAHN: Senator Gary Hart, good to see you. Thanks so much for dropping by.

HART: Thank you. Pleasure.

ZAHN: Time to head to New York. Aaron Brown is standing by to give us a preview of what we're going to see later tonight on NEWSNIGHT. I guess we can guess some of the content of your show tonight. How you doing tonight, Aaron?

AARON BROWN, NEWSNIGHT ANCHOR: I'm fine, thank you, Paula, and yes, I think you can figure out the broad outline of the program tonight. Lots of reaction to the president's speech, some of it coming in to the White House. We'll check with our senior White House correspondent John King.

We'll also talk with former CIA Director James Woolsey and FBI Director William Webster. Just about ten days ago, Woolsey wrote an impassioned plea for almost precisely what the president recommended today. We'll see how these two men, who are familiar with these two important agencies, view the task ahead, not so much the decision the president made, but how to implement the decision, which clearly is going to be the problem.

For those of you who missed it, we'll play a large portion of Agent Coleen Rowley's testimony before the Judiciary Committee today. That and much more coming up on NEWSNIGHT, 10:00 p.m. Eastern time -- Wolf, Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks, Aaron, look forward to it.

BLITZER: Sounds like a good show, as usual.

ZAHN: We're going to take a short break here and we'll have some final thoughts on the other side. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You know, Paula, it sounds pretty smooth and very ambitious right now, but knowing Washington as I do, there could be some rocks ahead on this road.

ZAHN: Pretty safe prediction, although most of our guests indicated to us tonight that the idea of this department will get congressional approval. I guess the tough part is the management.

BLITZER: The devil is in the details.

ZAHN: Absolutely. I want you all to please join me if you're awake tomorrow morning, first thing in the morning at 7:00 Eastern time for "AMERICAN MORNING." Among my guests, Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

BLITZER: And I will definitely be awake.

ZAHN: You will?

BLITZER: The Egyptian president, that's going to be a very important interview.

ZAHN: Thank you.

BLITZER: And please join me tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. Eastern for the latest developments on the war on terror. Stay with CNN right now, "LARRY KING LIVE" is next.

ZAHN: Good night.

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