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Changes Tough in Iraq Says Mideast Expert
Aired October 11, 2002 - 14:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Bloody repression has destroyed civil society in Iraq and the U.S. faces a massive reconstruction project if Saddam Hussein is toppled.
Gerges is a professor at Sarah Lawrence College and author of "Islamists and the West." He joins us from New York.
Fawaz, we good to see you.
FAWAZ GERGES, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: Thank you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right, now, this op-ed piece that you wrote recently, it sounds like you are suggesting that Iraq is better off with this Saddam Hussein regime.
Is that true? And if so, that's a bit scary.
GERGES: No, no, not true at all. All I was suggesting is that American officials seem to be underestimating the complex and difficult task of nation building in Iraq. Let's remember, Kyra, that Iraq has always been a difficult country to manage and govern.
And it seems to me what's lacking here in Washington is a sense of humility and skepticism about the use of military force, including American power in trying to reconstruct Iraqi civil society and state in a post Saddam Hussein regime.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's go back to when Saddam came into power 20 years ago. Why haven't the people of Iraq come together and fought for democracy?
GERGES: Well, that's a very good question. I mean, I think the first point to keep in mind is that first of all, since 1958, Iraq has been governed and ruled by military dictatorships. That is, civil society has been decimated and the middle class, of course, crushed.
And also official policies, Kyra, have played and manipulated the what I call tribal and ethnic and religious identities and loyalties in Iraq. So, Iraqi communities have become estranged from each other by years of divisive official policies. And in particular, the military governments the success of military governments, have really done a great deal of damage to the ability of civil society to rise up and try to unite against this bloody dictatorship.
PHILLIPS: And there's a lot of risk involved because not only could you die, but they go after your family and all your relatives and... GERGES: Absolutely. I mean, what you have in Iraq, I mean, since the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) took power in 1968 -- and in fact the security state, that is the intelligence services, really have come very close to swallowing up civil society.
So I think we should be -- I think give the Iraqi people a kind of break because the Iraqi people have been, I mean, repressed. Civil society has been crushed and, of course, since 1991, thanks to the U.N. inspections -- the U.N. sanctions, I think the Iraqi middle class has been decimated.
And let me say a few words about I think, the positive side. Let's remember that Iraq has three major things going for it. Iraq is one of the wealthiest states in the Middle East. In fact, Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world. And this particular sense, Iraq can really pay for its own -- for most of its political and social reconstruction.
Secondly, let's remember, Kyra, that Iraq used to have the largest middle class in the Arab world. And, of course, the economic sanctions imposed on Iraq by the United Nations in 1991 of course have decimated this middle class. One would hope that a revival of the middle class would play a critical part in the social and political reconstruction in Iraq.
And thirdly, Iraq used to have a very impressive industrial base and impressive educating class. Again -- again, the reviving this particular industrial base will play a critical part in fueling economic and social development in Iraq.
PHILLIPS: And you bring up a good point, because that's the big difference between Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean, with Afghanistan, I mean, there was such a large number of people that weren't even educated. Whereas Iraq -- major...
GERGES: Absolutely.
PHILLIPS: ...major level above that.
GERGES: Kyra, Iraq had the -- not only the largest middle class in the Arab world, but the most educated class in the Arab world.
Iraq had an industrial base up until 1991. Iraq is the wealthiest states in the Arab world and the Middle East in general, the second largest oil reserves, almost 1.12 billion barrels of oil.
Iraq has -- had a middle class. Iraq has a highly educated class. In this particular sense, if you really create the institutions, the building blocks, if you revive civil society, if you revive the middle class, Iraq has a good chance of becoming a leading, I would argue, liberal state in the Middle East.
PHILLIPS: OK, so, final question, Fawaz.
If indeed the U.S. does engage in a war against Iraq, obviously the U.S. would have to be involved in a post-war government of some sort or helping to rebuild the country. So it seems like it would be easier to do if you compare it to Afghanistan.
GERGES: Well, I mean, the case of Afghanistan, Kyra, is not reassuring in this regard at all. I mean, American officials do not really seem to have the staying power and the stomach for a complex nation building. In Iraq, I would argue that American vital interests are served by creating a multilateral coalition rather than really going into Iraq unilaterally in order to verify Iraq's, I think, mandate, the U.N. mandate, in order to make sure that Iraq is really free of nonconventional weapons. And not only that, a multilateral coalition would really try to help the Iraqis themselves to liberate themselves.
I think the biggest challenge facing the United States is to really accept the creation of this multilateral coalition in order to verify Iraq's compliance with the U.N. mandate and also in order to help the Iraqis themselves liberate themselves. The change from within rather than the change imposed on Iraq out of the barrel of a U.S. gun.
PHILLIPS: Fawaz Gerges, Sarah Lawrence College, thanks again.
GERGES: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 11, 2002 - 14:14 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Bloody repression has destroyed civil society in Iraq and the U.S. faces a massive reconstruction project if Saddam Hussein is toppled.
Gerges is a professor at Sarah Lawrence College and author of "Islamists and the West." He joins us from New York.
Fawaz, we good to see you.
FAWAZ GERGES, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: Thank you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right, now, this op-ed piece that you wrote recently, it sounds like you are suggesting that Iraq is better off with this Saddam Hussein regime.
Is that true? And if so, that's a bit scary.
GERGES: No, no, not true at all. All I was suggesting is that American officials seem to be underestimating the complex and difficult task of nation building in Iraq. Let's remember, Kyra, that Iraq has always been a difficult country to manage and govern.
And it seems to me what's lacking here in Washington is a sense of humility and skepticism about the use of military force, including American power in trying to reconstruct Iraqi civil society and state in a post Saddam Hussein regime.
PHILLIPS: Well, let's go back to when Saddam came into power 20 years ago. Why haven't the people of Iraq come together and fought for democracy?
GERGES: Well, that's a very good question. I mean, I think the first point to keep in mind is that first of all, since 1958, Iraq has been governed and ruled by military dictatorships. That is, civil society has been decimated and the middle class, of course, crushed.
And also official policies, Kyra, have played and manipulated the what I call tribal and ethnic and religious identities and loyalties in Iraq. So, Iraqi communities have become estranged from each other by years of divisive official policies. And in particular, the military governments the success of military governments, have really done a great deal of damage to the ability of civil society to rise up and try to unite against this bloody dictatorship.
PHILLIPS: And there's a lot of risk involved because not only could you die, but they go after your family and all your relatives and... GERGES: Absolutely. I mean, what you have in Iraq, I mean, since the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) took power in 1968 -- and in fact the security state, that is the intelligence services, really have come very close to swallowing up civil society.
So I think we should be -- I think give the Iraqi people a kind of break because the Iraqi people have been, I mean, repressed. Civil society has been crushed and, of course, since 1991, thanks to the U.N. inspections -- the U.N. sanctions, I think the Iraqi middle class has been decimated.
And let me say a few words about I think, the positive side. Let's remember that Iraq has three major things going for it. Iraq is one of the wealthiest states in the Middle East. In fact, Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world. And this particular sense, Iraq can really pay for its own -- for most of its political and social reconstruction.
Secondly, let's remember, Kyra, that Iraq used to have the largest middle class in the Arab world. And, of course, the economic sanctions imposed on Iraq by the United Nations in 1991 of course have decimated this middle class. One would hope that a revival of the middle class would play a critical part in the social and political reconstruction in Iraq.
And thirdly, Iraq used to have a very impressive industrial base and impressive educating class. Again -- again, the reviving this particular industrial base will play a critical part in fueling economic and social development in Iraq.
PHILLIPS: And you bring up a good point, because that's the big difference between Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean, with Afghanistan, I mean, there was such a large number of people that weren't even educated. Whereas Iraq -- major...
GERGES: Absolutely.
PHILLIPS: ...major level above that.
GERGES: Kyra, Iraq had the -- not only the largest middle class in the Arab world, but the most educated class in the Arab world.
Iraq had an industrial base up until 1991. Iraq is the wealthiest states in the Arab world and the Middle East in general, the second largest oil reserves, almost 1.12 billion barrels of oil.
Iraq has -- had a middle class. Iraq has a highly educated class. In this particular sense, if you really create the institutions, the building blocks, if you revive civil society, if you revive the middle class, Iraq has a good chance of becoming a leading, I would argue, liberal state in the Middle East.
PHILLIPS: OK, so, final question, Fawaz.
If indeed the U.S. does engage in a war against Iraq, obviously the U.S. would have to be involved in a post-war government of some sort or helping to rebuild the country. So it seems like it would be easier to do if you compare it to Afghanistan.
GERGES: Well, I mean, the case of Afghanistan, Kyra, is not reassuring in this regard at all. I mean, American officials do not really seem to have the staying power and the stomach for a complex nation building. In Iraq, I would argue that American vital interests are served by creating a multilateral coalition rather than really going into Iraq unilaterally in order to verify Iraq's, I think, mandate, the U.N. mandate, in order to make sure that Iraq is really free of nonconventional weapons. And not only that, a multilateral coalition would really try to help the Iraqis themselves to liberate themselves.
I think the biggest challenge facing the United States is to really accept the creation of this multilateral coalition in order to verify Iraq's compliance with the U.N. mandate and also in order to help the Iraqis themselves liberate themselves. The change from within rather than the change imposed on Iraq out of the barrel of a U.S. gun.
PHILLIPS: Fawaz Gerges, Sarah Lawrence College, thanks again.
GERGES: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
