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Interview with Genevieve Wood, Barry Lynn

Aired December 12, 2002 - 13:26   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Violation of the separation of church and state or a leveling of the playing field for federal money? The Faith-Based Initiative is one of President Bush's more contentious proposal.
We're going to talk about it now. Joining me on this issue, is Genevieve Wood of the Family Research Council, and the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Thank you both so much for being with me.

REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: All right, reverend. Let's begin with you, shall we? And talk about this. Isn't this just a way of erasing barriers and giving religious groups a fair shake here?

LYNN: No, quite the contrary. In fact, this gives religious groups a special break. You know, ironically, the president has now even criticizing Trent Lott for his kind of fantasies about discriminatory policies of the past, but ironically today the president has announced a program of discriminatory hiring practices for the future.

The biggest thing that he has done today is to allow discriminatory hiring on the basis of religion and religious belief, even for such common services as feeding the hungry and sheltering those with no homes. That is going back, not forward, in civil rights.

PHILLIPS: Genevieve, is this going back in civil rights? I mean, is this favoring the faithful or just faith-friendly?

GENEVIEVE WOOD, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, I think I'm going to disagree with Barry here. I think it is going forward. It's basically saying that faith-based organizations who -- just about anybody out there who looks around their community would say are very good at helping with social services, can now apply for the same federal dollars that other groups that don't have a faith component can apply for as well.

So basically, it's ending discrimination, not putting discrimination in. And this is something -- I tell you a lot of groups around the country who have not been receiving federal dollars have been doing a good job, and he is only saying if they have access to more money, maybe they will be able to do even more, and that's something we all want to see. LYNN: You know, the amazing thing is that people actually believe that you can be a faith-based organization, you can hire people on the basis of their religious beliefs, but somehow you cannot be religious when you are handing out government dollars, tax dollars. Of course, you can't do that. If you're religious, you're religious all the time. You're motivated by and, in fact, are permitted under current law to hire coreligionists, people who believe as you do.

(CROSSTALK)

WOOD: What is wrong with that?

LYNN: Why in the world should you make a hiring decision on someone to ladle out soup in a soup kitchen based on whether or not they're the same faith -- Presbyterian, say...

WOOD: Because...

LYNN: ... instead of whether they can do the job?

WOOD: Because religious groups have a right to retain their identity, and they're given the right, frankly, under the 1964 civil rights law...

LYNN: No. That's simply wrong.

WOOD: That's exactly correct. The fact is, a Baptist organization has a right to remain Baptist. A Muslim organization has the right to remain Muslim. A Jewish organization shouldn't be forced to hire Catholics if they would prefer to hire Jews.

LYNN: Well, nobody is talking about that.

WOOD: That is the debate here.

LYNN: No, no.

(CROSSTALK)

WOOD: Nobody is forced to go to these groups. That is a key point. Nobody is forced to go to a Jewish Center to get help, or to go to a Catholic Center. They can go to a center of their choice. It's just saying these different groups have a right to apply for funds.

PHILLIPS: And reverend, you talk about, if you are faithful, then you live your life that way. You are a faithful person. So you know, as a reverend, how charitable people are within a church. So why not let them have the opportunity to have more money? We're talking about helping the homeless, the elderly, welfare to work families.

LYNN: I think the goal for the -- those of us in many of the faiths in this country, our job is to give money voluntarily, not to pick somebody else's pocket to have them give money, even if they didn't intend it. This is the opposite of charity. This is just taking government funds, and I do have to correct one misstatement.

The -- this Title VI of the Civil Rights Act protects your right to hire people of the same religion with your private dollars.

I support that. What I don't support is the idea that if I give money, I have to be giving money to organizations that I might not choose to support. I might not want my tax dollars to go to a Muslim charity. I would expect the Muslim charities to be able to raise their money voluntarily. This is the most sweeping change in the construct of keeping a decent distance between religious groups and governments in modern political history...

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Genevieve, how do you avoid religious discrimination? How do you avoid religious discrimination?

WOOD: Well, I think that -- that's exactly what the president is doing. He's saying any religion, it doesn't have to be Christian, it doesn't have to be Jewish, any religion can apply for these funds, and what people, I think, don't understand is the level of discrimination that's been a part of our country against faith-based groups for years. The president is trying to end that.

And one example of that, let me just give it to you very quickly, is if an organization, a faith-based school or a faith-based homeless shelter is damaged, let's say during a hurricane or a tornado, currently as it stands, FEMA, the federal emergency agency, isn't allowed to give them any money to repair damages, and the president signed an executive order today saying a religious shelter ought to be able to get damages replaced just like any other non-profit organization...

LYNN: If they're going to be a shelter.

WOOD: ... that's having damages.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Reverend, final thoughts. Final thoughts.

LYNN: ... can be be resolved in two paragraph, not this major change in policy.

PHILLIPS: Well, I must say both of you are extremely faithful to your causes. Genevieve Wood, Reverend Barry Lynn. Thank you both very much. I'm sure we will be talking again.

LYNN: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 12, 2002 - 13:26   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Violation of the separation of church and state or a leveling of the playing field for federal money? The Faith-Based Initiative is one of President Bush's more contentious proposal.
We're going to talk about it now. Joining me on this issue, is Genevieve Wood of the Family Research Council, and the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Thank you both so much for being with me.

REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: All right, reverend. Let's begin with you, shall we? And talk about this. Isn't this just a way of erasing barriers and giving religious groups a fair shake here?

LYNN: No, quite the contrary. In fact, this gives religious groups a special break. You know, ironically, the president has now even criticizing Trent Lott for his kind of fantasies about discriminatory policies of the past, but ironically today the president has announced a program of discriminatory hiring practices for the future.

The biggest thing that he has done today is to allow discriminatory hiring on the basis of religion and religious belief, even for such common services as feeding the hungry and sheltering those with no homes. That is going back, not forward, in civil rights.

PHILLIPS: Genevieve, is this going back in civil rights? I mean, is this favoring the faithful or just faith-friendly?

GENEVIEVE WOOD, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, I think I'm going to disagree with Barry here. I think it is going forward. It's basically saying that faith-based organizations who -- just about anybody out there who looks around their community would say are very good at helping with social services, can now apply for the same federal dollars that other groups that don't have a faith component can apply for as well.

So basically, it's ending discrimination, not putting discrimination in. And this is something -- I tell you a lot of groups around the country who have not been receiving federal dollars have been doing a good job, and he is only saying if they have access to more money, maybe they will be able to do even more, and that's something we all want to see. LYNN: You know, the amazing thing is that people actually believe that you can be a faith-based organization, you can hire people on the basis of their religious beliefs, but somehow you cannot be religious when you are handing out government dollars, tax dollars. Of course, you can't do that. If you're religious, you're religious all the time. You're motivated by and, in fact, are permitted under current law to hire coreligionists, people who believe as you do.

(CROSSTALK)

WOOD: What is wrong with that?

LYNN: Why in the world should you make a hiring decision on someone to ladle out soup in a soup kitchen based on whether or not they're the same faith -- Presbyterian, say...

WOOD: Because...

LYNN: ... instead of whether they can do the job?

WOOD: Because religious groups have a right to retain their identity, and they're given the right, frankly, under the 1964 civil rights law...

LYNN: No. That's simply wrong.

WOOD: That's exactly correct. The fact is, a Baptist organization has a right to remain Baptist. A Muslim organization has the right to remain Muslim. A Jewish organization shouldn't be forced to hire Catholics if they would prefer to hire Jews.

LYNN: Well, nobody is talking about that.

WOOD: That is the debate here.

LYNN: No, no.

(CROSSTALK)

WOOD: Nobody is forced to go to these groups. That is a key point. Nobody is forced to go to a Jewish Center to get help, or to go to a Catholic Center. They can go to a center of their choice. It's just saying these different groups have a right to apply for funds.

PHILLIPS: And reverend, you talk about, if you are faithful, then you live your life that way. You are a faithful person. So you know, as a reverend, how charitable people are within a church. So why not let them have the opportunity to have more money? We're talking about helping the homeless, the elderly, welfare to work families.

LYNN: I think the goal for the -- those of us in many of the faiths in this country, our job is to give money voluntarily, not to pick somebody else's pocket to have them give money, even if they didn't intend it. This is the opposite of charity. This is just taking government funds, and I do have to correct one misstatement.

The -- this Title VI of the Civil Rights Act protects your right to hire people of the same religion with your private dollars.

I support that. What I don't support is the idea that if I give money, I have to be giving money to organizations that I might not choose to support. I might not want my tax dollars to go to a Muslim charity. I would expect the Muslim charities to be able to raise their money voluntarily. This is the most sweeping change in the construct of keeping a decent distance between religious groups and governments in modern political history...

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Genevieve, how do you avoid religious discrimination? How do you avoid religious discrimination?

WOOD: Well, I think that -- that's exactly what the president is doing. He's saying any religion, it doesn't have to be Christian, it doesn't have to be Jewish, any religion can apply for these funds, and what people, I think, don't understand is the level of discrimination that's been a part of our country against faith-based groups for years. The president is trying to end that.

And one example of that, let me just give it to you very quickly, is if an organization, a faith-based school or a faith-based homeless shelter is damaged, let's say during a hurricane or a tornado, currently as it stands, FEMA, the federal emergency agency, isn't allowed to give them any money to repair damages, and the president signed an executive order today saying a religious shelter ought to be able to get damages replaced just like any other non-profit organization...

LYNN: If they're going to be a shelter.

WOOD: ... that's having damages.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Reverend, final thoughts. Final thoughts.

LYNN: ... can be be resolved in two paragraph, not this major change in policy.

PHILLIPS: Well, I must say both of you are extremely faithful to your causes. Genevieve Wood, Reverend Barry Lynn. Thank you both very much. I'm sure we will be talking again.

LYNN: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com