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Military Caste

Aired December 19, 2002 - 13:37   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: As we face a possible war with Iraq and a war on terrorism, still ongoing, we take a look at the makeup of military men and women who protect this nation. A recent article questions the appearance of class disparity in the military. Are many of America's poor youths going off to war, while the rich stay at home? Conservative Armstrong Williams raised the issue in his syndicated column. Also joining us from Washington, Rick Maze, he's a congressional editor of The Army Times.
Gentlemen, hello.

RICK MAZE, CONGRESSIONAL EDITOR, THE ARMY TIMES: Hello. Thank you for having us.

PHILLIPS: It's a pleasure. Armstrong, let's talk about the point that you make in your article. You say you've never received so many e-mails before, which I find very fascinating. Let's talk about this reaction that you are hearing when parents say, hey, my son, my daughter, they're going to enlist, and then the reaction.

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, something happened during the '60s following Vietnam. There was a movement afoot in this country that said that we were aggressive, the war was worthless, nothing was produced. And so, throughout the colleges and universities with professors and also throughout the United States, there was an anti-war that became that sentiment in this country and so, it has trickled down to where we are now.

And what happens now, if a young boy or young girl says to their parents that they're going to the military, and that parent says that to someone in the neighborhood, they look down on it. They say, well, has your child failed, they lack self-esteem, they just cannot find themselves? I mean, because what is happening now, and what it breaks down to, the intellectually and the financially rich really don't go off to war.

If you look at the members of Congress, of all 535 members, only about three have their son, a grandchild, in the military. And what it is it's creating this classism in the military. And so, they are not understanding the values of citizenship, hard work, discipline.

And even one of the worst things that would happen -- and it has happened and I agree with many of the e-mails that I received -- is when they got rid of the draft in the United States. And I think it has led to a lot of the social pathologies that we see in the United States almost 30 years later. PHILLIPS: All right. Rick, I want to bring you in on this. And I actually have some numbers here. In 1975, members of Congress with military experience: in the House, 70 percent; in the Senate, 73 percent. In 2002: House, 27 percent or 2003 -- rather, well, 2002, 2003 -- House, 27 percent; Senate 35 percent. That is amazing. That is a huge gap. What happened?

MAZE: Well, it's a sign mostly that the World War II population is dying off, that -- or retiring. And the generation that follows behind them didn't serve in the military because we didn't have a war of that size. Vietnam was an equalizer and there are maybe 35, 40 members of Congress that were Vietnam combat veterans. But, in general, the number is smaller and that just shows what's has happened to the World War II population.

WILLIAMS: What I think you should also indicate is that -- is how our veterans are treated when they return from war. A part of that treatment, if you look at a lot of homeless veterans, many of the homelessness, the homelessness that exists throughout major cities, much of it is with veterans. They are treated like second-class citizens. We don't appreciate it. We don't celebrate it, because it is they who go out on the front lines around the world and give their lives that we can enjoy the freedoms that we have today.

What a lot of parents raise their children to do today is to protect the good name and build wealth, not go to the military. I firmly believe that a kid graduating from college, going -- they can work two or three years anywhere in the world, but they can never gain the experience that they would gain for the two or three years of service in some junior military position in the military.

PHILLIPS: It's true it changes...

WILLIAMS: It doesn't teach you how to manage. It doesn't teach you personal responsibility and doesn't teach you -- what -- to appreciate what really hard work and what it's value really is.

PHILLIPS: So, Rick, how do you change that? What's being done? How do you diversify the military and get the rich, the poor, the black, the white and get them in here, not discriminating and not judging each other by color or money?

MAZE: Well, it's very difficult to do. The -- since the end of the draft, it's been an all-volunteer military, it's basically market driven, and people are coming because that's the opportunity they seek. Rich people and people of wealth or people with families with strong educational backgrounds sense that they have other opportunities and the military is not the first choice for them.

So when you look up at the makeup of today's military, it brings people slightly more from rural areas, slightly less from urban areas than the population as a whole. The very rich and the very poor are both underrepresented in today's military. But you can't recruit someone that comes from a wealthy family, using the recruiting tools that they're using now, the promise of G.I. bill benefits and a large enlistment bonus don't mean so much to somebody that already has a way of paying for college and paying for life. You need to use some other fashion to try to attract them.

WILLIAMS: But also, Kyra, this is also regional. I am a southerner, and southerners have a strong tradition of chivalry. A lot of the military generals and leaders of today come from the south. It is something that we place strong emphasis on. And when you look at other regions of the world, they're not as committed to the military as many southerners are in the south, they're just not.

PHILLIPS: So - and let's talk about, I mean, even the military, I guess we can talk about how military affects race relations. Maybe both of you can talk about this. I mean, look at kids now, so many kids, they're so selfish and they're so disrespectful to authority. And you see kids going the wrong way in so many avenues. I want you both to comment.

Armstrong, you know, how -- you were in ROTC. Let's talk about how the military builds this sense of teamwork and everybody should be a part of that?

WILLIAMS: Well, in today's America, we see ourselves as individuals, not as a part of something. We don't understand how our behavior, our actions and our words can affect others. When I was in junior ROTC at South Carolina State College, we had to be a part of a team. My actions would affect my teammate.

I mean, they taught us about getting up out of bed 4:30 in the morning to be on the ROTC field for maybe a 5:30 or a 6 a.m. drill. It taught us about how to respect authority. And you could also tell the difference between kids, especially young men, that came from a background where you had two parents in household, versus those that came from single-parent households. Their work ethic was different, their value system was different. And how they dug in and how you found that they had just the back bone and the character to endure.

Now, in terms of race relations, I think, Rick, you will agree with me, that when people talk about how America has come from the days of human slavery to days of segregation to civil rights, they point to the military.

The military has done the best job of showing that America has done a very good job on race relations, and that is why everybody is equal -- your race, your ethnicity, your region, has nothing to do with it. You rise and fall on your own merit. That's how you move up in the ranks and that is how you get those badges that you end up with and how you get the kind of support and upward mobility in the military by what you bring to the military, and it has nothing to do with what you look like, it has to do with what's within you.

PHILLIPS: And Rick, how you convince the young rich woman or young man that it is far more powerful or effective in life to value patriotism more than money?

MAZE: Well, you need to do that with a Kennedy-esque sort of message about doing something for your country. I think that there have been some efforts on -- in that regards. President Bush, Senator John McCain, Senator Bayh, are all working on national service plans that now include an element of the military, where they'll bring people in for short-term enlistments for 18 months, who will come and do small things and learn the teamwork and the benefits of being in the military. I just think that Armstrong and I might disagree on one thing and that's I don't have any fond memories of being awakened at 4:30 in the morning or thinking that that necessarily made me a better team player.

WILLIAMS: Well, I'm a farm boy, Rick. And so, I grew up on a farm, so it did. I mean, because it makes you appreciate that work starts early in the morning, not late in the afternoon. I could never lay around in my bed all day, because I would find something to do.

I think another point that we should introduce in this debate is that Hollywood is very good at making movies about the military and those glory days, because those movies sell. But what Hollywood is not very good at is being an advocate of war and understanding what war means and understanding that war means sacrifice and that sometimes we have to water ourselves with the blood of our men and women, in order to enjoy the freedoms that we have today, and that is why you get such an anti-stance from Hollywood against service because they just thumb their nose at it.

PHILLIPS: Well, I got to tell you, and we got wrap this up, gentlemen, but you know, you go see "Black Hawk Down," I think you get a taste for what those soldiers went through and what it takes to defend our country and to defend freedom. And you bring up an important: sacrifice. We all should sacrifice a bit more, no doubt. Rick Maze, Armstrong Williams, thank you so much, gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 19, 2002 - 13:37   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: As we face a possible war with Iraq and a war on terrorism, still ongoing, we take a look at the makeup of military men and women who protect this nation. A recent article questions the appearance of class disparity in the military. Are many of America's poor youths going off to war, while the rich stay at home? Conservative Armstrong Williams raised the issue in his syndicated column. Also joining us from Washington, Rick Maze, he's a congressional editor of The Army Times.
Gentlemen, hello.

RICK MAZE, CONGRESSIONAL EDITOR, THE ARMY TIMES: Hello. Thank you for having us.

PHILLIPS: It's a pleasure. Armstrong, let's talk about the point that you make in your article. You say you've never received so many e-mails before, which I find very fascinating. Let's talk about this reaction that you are hearing when parents say, hey, my son, my daughter, they're going to enlist, and then the reaction.

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, something happened during the '60s following Vietnam. There was a movement afoot in this country that said that we were aggressive, the war was worthless, nothing was produced. And so, throughout the colleges and universities with professors and also throughout the United States, there was an anti-war that became that sentiment in this country and so, it has trickled down to where we are now.

And what happens now, if a young boy or young girl says to their parents that they're going to the military, and that parent says that to someone in the neighborhood, they look down on it. They say, well, has your child failed, they lack self-esteem, they just cannot find themselves? I mean, because what is happening now, and what it breaks down to, the intellectually and the financially rich really don't go off to war.

If you look at the members of Congress, of all 535 members, only about three have their son, a grandchild, in the military. And what it is it's creating this classism in the military. And so, they are not understanding the values of citizenship, hard work, discipline.

And even one of the worst things that would happen -- and it has happened and I agree with many of the e-mails that I received -- is when they got rid of the draft in the United States. And I think it has led to a lot of the social pathologies that we see in the United States almost 30 years later. PHILLIPS: All right. Rick, I want to bring you in on this. And I actually have some numbers here. In 1975, members of Congress with military experience: in the House, 70 percent; in the Senate, 73 percent. In 2002: House, 27 percent or 2003 -- rather, well, 2002, 2003 -- House, 27 percent; Senate 35 percent. That is amazing. That is a huge gap. What happened?

MAZE: Well, it's a sign mostly that the World War II population is dying off, that -- or retiring. And the generation that follows behind them didn't serve in the military because we didn't have a war of that size. Vietnam was an equalizer and there are maybe 35, 40 members of Congress that were Vietnam combat veterans. But, in general, the number is smaller and that just shows what's has happened to the World War II population.

WILLIAMS: What I think you should also indicate is that -- is how our veterans are treated when they return from war. A part of that treatment, if you look at a lot of homeless veterans, many of the homelessness, the homelessness that exists throughout major cities, much of it is with veterans. They are treated like second-class citizens. We don't appreciate it. We don't celebrate it, because it is they who go out on the front lines around the world and give their lives that we can enjoy the freedoms that we have today.

What a lot of parents raise their children to do today is to protect the good name and build wealth, not go to the military. I firmly believe that a kid graduating from college, going -- they can work two or three years anywhere in the world, but they can never gain the experience that they would gain for the two or three years of service in some junior military position in the military.

PHILLIPS: It's true it changes...

WILLIAMS: It doesn't teach you how to manage. It doesn't teach you personal responsibility and doesn't teach you -- what -- to appreciate what really hard work and what it's value really is.

PHILLIPS: So, Rick, how do you change that? What's being done? How do you diversify the military and get the rich, the poor, the black, the white and get them in here, not discriminating and not judging each other by color or money?

MAZE: Well, it's very difficult to do. The -- since the end of the draft, it's been an all-volunteer military, it's basically market driven, and people are coming because that's the opportunity they seek. Rich people and people of wealth or people with families with strong educational backgrounds sense that they have other opportunities and the military is not the first choice for them.

So when you look up at the makeup of today's military, it brings people slightly more from rural areas, slightly less from urban areas than the population as a whole. The very rich and the very poor are both underrepresented in today's military. But you can't recruit someone that comes from a wealthy family, using the recruiting tools that they're using now, the promise of G.I. bill benefits and a large enlistment bonus don't mean so much to somebody that already has a way of paying for college and paying for life. You need to use some other fashion to try to attract them.

WILLIAMS: But also, Kyra, this is also regional. I am a southerner, and southerners have a strong tradition of chivalry. A lot of the military generals and leaders of today come from the south. It is something that we place strong emphasis on. And when you look at other regions of the world, they're not as committed to the military as many southerners are in the south, they're just not.

PHILLIPS: So - and let's talk about, I mean, even the military, I guess we can talk about how military affects race relations. Maybe both of you can talk about this. I mean, look at kids now, so many kids, they're so selfish and they're so disrespectful to authority. And you see kids going the wrong way in so many avenues. I want you both to comment.

Armstrong, you know, how -- you were in ROTC. Let's talk about how the military builds this sense of teamwork and everybody should be a part of that?

WILLIAMS: Well, in today's America, we see ourselves as individuals, not as a part of something. We don't understand how our behavior, our actions and our words can affect others. When I was in junior ROTC at South Carolina State College, we had to be a part of a team. My actions would affect my teammate.

I mean, they taught us about getting up out of bed 4:30 in the morning to be on the ROTC field for maybe a 5:30 or a 6 a.m. drill. It taught us about how to respect authority. And you could also tell the difference between kids, especially young men, that came from a background where you had two parents in household, versus those that came from single-parent households. Their work ethic was different, their value system was different. And how they dug in and how you found that they had just the back bone and the character to endure.

Now, in terms of race relations, I think, Rick, you will agree with me, that when people talk about how America has come from the days of human slavery to days of segregation to civil rights, they point to the military.

The military has done the best job of showing that America has done a very good job on race relations, and that is why everybody is equal -- your race, your ethnicity, your region, has nothing to do with it. You rise and fall on your own merit. That's how you move up in the ranks and that is how you get those badges that you end up with and how you get the kind of support and upward mobility in the military by what you bring to the military, and it has nothing to do with what you look like, it has to do with what's within you.

PHILLIPS: And Rick, how you convince the young rich woman or young man that it is far more powerful or effective in life to value patriotism more than money?

MAZE: Well, you need to do that with a Kennedy-esque sort of message about doing something for your country. I think that there have been some efforts on -- in that regards. President Bush, Senator John McCain, Senator Bayh, are all working on national service plans that now include an element of the military, where they'll bring people in for short-term enlistments for 18 months, who will come and do small things and learn the teamwork and the benefits of being in the military. I just think that Armstrong and I might disagree on one thing and that's I don't have any fond memories of being awakened at 4:30 in the morning or thinking that that necessarily made me a better team player.

WILLIAMS: Well, I'm a farm boy, Rick. And so, I grew up on a farm, so it did. I mean, because it makes you appreciate that work starts early in the morning, not late in the afternoon. I could never lay around in my bed all day, because I would find something to do.

I think another point that we should introduce in this debate is that Hollywood is very good at making movies about the military and those glory days, because those movies sell. But what Hollywood is not very good at is being an advocate of war and understanding what war means and understanding that war means sacrifice and that sometimes we have to water ourselves with the blood of our men and women, in order to enjoy the freedoms that we have today, and that is why you get such an anti-stance from Hollywood against service because they just thumb their nose at it.

PHILLIPS: Well, I got to tell you, and we got wrap this up, gentlemen, but you know, you go see "Black Hawk Down," I think you get a taste for what those soldiers went through and what it takes to defend our country and to defend freedom. And you bring up an important: sacrifice. We all should sacrifice a bit more, no doubt. Rick Maze, Armstrong Williams, thank you so much, gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com