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New Law Requires New Information From International Travelers

Aired January 07, 2003 - 14:19   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: This brings us to the Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act of 2002. That's a very official title of the U.S. government's attempt to keep a closer eye on people who enter and exit the country. Among other things, the new law requires airlines and shipping carriers to collect personal information, such as name, birth date, address, on each passenger and crew member. The rules would also apply to U.S. citizens and non- citizens alike. And unlike in the past, information would be collected on people leaving the U.S., as well as entering the U.S.
Joining me now with some insights and two very different opinions on the new law are Timothy Edgar of the American Civil Liberties Union, and Michael Cronin of the Immigration and Naturalization Service -- much easier to say INS.

Hello, gentlemen.

MICHAEL CRONIN, INS: Good afternoon.

PHILLIPS: All right, good afternoon. Let's start talking about these new rules. Let's begin with you, Michael, and talk about the biggest difference that passengers will now face or notice when they are traveling internationally.

CRONIN: Well, the difference actually won't be that huge. Basically the new rule is going -- the new rule based on the legislation is going to address some gaps in the current system under which the airlines and the cruise lines collect data that is provided to us electronically. And at the present time, basically over 90 percent of passengers entering the country are covered by that. Those passengers on whom we don't receive advanced data are encountered for the first time when they come through the passport control and the Customs process, and the data is used at that time to check and see if they're on lists of wanted persons.

A big change will, of course, be the collection of the data on departure, but once again, the data will be provided to the border security agencies electronically by the transportation lines. So, they're not going to see a huge change in the process. Some additional data elements will be collected, and that will be the principal change.

PHILLIPS: Timothy, it all seems to make sense. What are your concerns?

TIMOTHY EDGAR, ACLU LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL: Well, we certainly think that terrorists and other dangerous individuals should be prevented from coming into this country, and we fully support efforts to make sure that doesn't happen. Our concerns really are, what is going to be done with this information after it's been collected and then checked against the database? This information could be stored by the government for indefinite periods of time and then used for other purposes. We want to make sure that doesn't happen, so we would urge that it be discarded after it's checked against the database.

And then the second point is that these databases have had real problems. Innocent people have gotten on the database, they have been harassed. And there seems to be no way to get off. It's a persistent problem, and it's something the government is going to have to do something about if they're going to continue to check names against a database, so that we catch only those who mean to do us harm and we don't ensnare innocent individuals.

PHILLIPS: So, Michael, how do you avoid innocent people being on a terrorist watch list?

CRONIN: Well, I mean, certainly there can be issues in terms of a person's identity, making sure the individual that's coming through is the right person. And there are certainly data integrity issues. We do have an obligation to ensure that if a violation in some way has been cured that that person is removed from the list.

Timothy is correct that we have encountered issues in the past, where a record that should have been removed might not have been. There are procedures to accomplish that. Basically, people can contact the owning agency, which can review the record and decide if indeed the data should be in the system.

However, the fact is that this provides a very, very powerful tool for us in terms of having the information in advance. I'd point out that by and large, this is data that's being collected now in many cases not in electronic form. It can be on the Customs declaration, on the landing card, the form 994 (ph) that INS collects from visitors entering the country.

In terms of the use of the information, basically once a name is checked against the system, that data is indeed archived. And about the only use that archived data is put to is to verify if a question arises at a subsequent time whether in fact the person did not did not enter at a certain time or departed at a certain time.

The data on visitors is slightly different. That will go into a system of records, which basically is a life or dynamic database under which the status of visitors to the country is consistently updated and checked and their departure is recorded when they leave the country. And that's a separate database, again, applying only to foreign visitors, and that's a system of records.

PHILLIPS: All right, so, Timothy, how do you find a balance between enhancing security and also civil rights? I mean, I have a husband from Middle Eastern descent. I can empathize with getting harassed. But at the same time, you know, national security is so important to all of us right now. So, where do you find a fair balance? EDGAR: Well, that's obviously important. I think that one thing we would be very concerned about in terms of storing records is this new total information awareness program that's being promoted in the Pentagon. It would allow the government to manipulate and use that data in all sorts of ways that they've never been able to do before.

So, it may be true that we've collected a lot of this information on U.S. citizens before, but to have those electronic tools to, as your set-up piece said, just track every American and where they have gone and traveled whenever they go outside of the United States, I think it should give a lot of people pause about how that could be used by an unscrupulous administration in the future.

So, we would advocate that the information that's being collected, that there should be a purpose of checking it against a much more carefully controlled list. And that once it's checked and there's no hit, it should simply be discarded for U.S. citizens...

PHILLIPS: And real quickly...

EDGAR: ... because otherwise...

PHILLIPS: I'm sorry. Real quickly before we have to go, I want to make sure Michael makes a comment. Why not just discard that information?

CRONIN: As I say, the information is useful and, in fact, is checked to verify if someone entered at a certain time where if an incident occurred, if someone complains, for example, about treatment at a port of entry, or if simply there's a law enforcement need to verify that someone entered. If we learned that someone is in the country that we may want to verify is in the country, we'd have to go back to those records to see if in fact an entry occurred. So, it provides a very important purpose from several points of view.

PHILLIPS: Well, gentlemen, I'm sure we'll continue this conversation. Unfortunately, we have to leave it there. Michael Cronin with the INS, also Timothy Edgar at the ACLU -- thank you very much.

CRONIN: Thank you.

EDGAR: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.





Travelers>


Aired January 7, 2003 - 14:19   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: This brings us to the Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act of 2002. That's a very official title of the U.S. government's attempt to keep a closer eye on people who enter and exit the country. Among other things, the new law requires airlines and shipping carriers to collect personal information, such as name, birth date, address, on each passenger and crew member. The rules would also apply to U.S. citizens and non- citizens alike. And unlike in the past, information would be collected on people leaving the U.S., as well as entering the U.S.
Joining me now with some insights and two very different opinions on the new law are Timothy Edgar of the American Civil Liberties Union, and Michael Cronin of the Immigration and Naturalization Service -- much easier to say INS.

Hello, gentlemen.

MICHAEL CRONIN, INS: Good afternoon.

PHILLIPS: All right, good afternoon. Let's start talking about these new rules. Let's begin with you, Michael, and talk about the biggest difference that passengers will now face or notice when they are traveling internationally.

CRONIN: Well, the difference actually won't be that huge. Basically the new rule is going -- the new rule based on the legislation is going to address some gaps in the current system under which the airlines and the cruise lines collect data that is provided to us electronically. And at the present time, basically over 90 percent of passengers entering the country are covered by that. Those passengers on whom we don't receive advanced data are encountered for the first time when they come through the passport control and the Customs process, and the data is used at that time to check and see if they're on lists of wanted persons.

A big change will, of course, be the collection of the data on departure, but once again, the data will be provided to the border security agencies electronically by the transportation lines. So, they're not going to see a huge change in the process. Some additional data elements will be collected, and that will be the principal change.

PHILLIPS: Timothy, it all seems to make sense. What are your concerns?

TIMOTHY EDGAR, ACLU LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL: Well, we certainly think that terrorists and other dangerous individuals should be prevented from coming into this country, and we fully support efforts to make sure that doesn't happen. Our concerns really are, what is going to be done with this information after it's been collected and then checked against the database? This information could be stored by the government for indefinite periods of time and then used for other purposes. We want to make sure that doesn't happen, so we would urge that it be discarded after it's checked against the database.

And then the second point is that these databases have had real problems. Innocent people have gotten on the database, they have been harassed. And there seems to be no way to get off. It's a persistent problem, and it's something the government is going to have to do something about if they're going to continue to check names against a database, so that we catch only those who mean to do us harm and we don't ensnare innocent individuals.

PHILLIPS: So, Michael, how do you avoid innocent people being on a terrorist watch list?

CRONIN: Well, I mean, certainly there can be issues in terms of a person's identity, making sure the individual that's coming through is the right person. And there are certainly data integrity issues. We do have an obligation to ensure that if a violation in some way has been cured that that person is removed from the list.

Timothy is correct that we have encountered issues in the past, where a record that should have been removed might not have been. There are procedures to accomplish that. Basically, people can contact the owning agency, which can review the record and decide if indeed the data should be in the system.

However, the fact is that this provides a very, very powerful tool for us in terms of having the information in advance. I'd point out that by and large, this is data that's being collected now in many cases not in electronic form. It can be on the Customs declaration, on the landing card, the form 994 (ph) that INS collects from visitors entering the country.

In terms of the use of the information, basically once a name is checked against the system, that data is indeed archived. And about the only use that archived data is put to is to verify if a question arises at a subsequent time whether in fact the person did not did not enter at a certain time or departed at a certain time.

The data on visitors is slightly different. That will go into a system of records, which basically is a life or dynamic database under which the status of visitors to the country is consistently updated and checked and their departure is recorded when they leave the country. And that's a separate database, again, applying only to foreign visitors, and that's a system of records.

PHILLIPS: All right, so, Timothy, how do you find a balance between enhancing security and also civil rights? I mean, I have a husband from Middle Eastern descent. I can empathize with getting harassed. But at the same time, you know, national security is so important to all of us right now. So, where do you find a fair balance? EDGAR: Well, that's obviously important. I think that one thing we would be very concerned about in terms of storing records is this new total information awareness program that's being promoted in the Pentagon. It would allow the government to manipulate and use that data in all sorts of ways that they've never been able to do before.

So, it may be true that we've collected a lot of this information on U.S. citizens before, but to have those electronic tools to, as your set-up piece said, just track every American and where they have gone and traveled whenever they go outside of the United States, I think it should give a lot of people pause about how that could be used by an unscrupulous administration in the future.

So, we would advocate that the information that's being collected, that there should be a purpose of checking it against a much more carefully controlled list. And that once it's checked and there's no hit, it should simply be discarded for U.S. citizens...

PHILLIPS: And real quickly...

EDGAR: ... because otherwise...

PHILLIPS: I'm sorry. Real quickly before we have to go, I want to make sure Michael makes a comment. Why not just discard that information?

CRONIN: As I say, the information is useful and, in fact, is checked to verify if someone entered at a certain time where if an incident occurred, if someone complains, for example, about treatment at a port of entry, or if simply there's a law enforcement need to verify that someone entered. If we learned that someone is in the country that we may want to verify is in the country, we'd have to go back to those records to see if in fact an entry occurred. So, it provides a very important purpose from several points of view.

PHILLIPS: Well, gentlemen, I'm sure we'll continue this conversation. Unfortunately, we have to leave it there. Michael Cronin with the INS, also Timothy Edgar at the ACLU -- thank you very much.

CRONIN: Thank you.

EDGAR: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.





Travelers>