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How Might Mohammed Be Interrogated?

Aired March 03, 2003 - 13:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Now that Mohammed is in custody, what will the authorities do? How will they deal with him? For those of us who are familiar, mostly, with interrogation as depicted by Hollywood, you might think about bright lights and rubber hoses and so forth. That is not really how it goes down.
For more on that, we turn now to one of our experts on such matters, J. Kelly McCann joining us from Washington -- Kelly, good to see you.

J. KELLY, MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Hi, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's go through the tote board of familiar items that those of us who have a casual understanding of how these things go -- we have a full screen, which are sort of the menu of options which could be available to somebody trying to interrogate the likes of Mohammed.

Among the things on the list, if we can get that list up for us is a same question asked different ways, sleep deprivation, make the person uncomfortable, drugs, and then ultimately torture and force.

Kelly, how much of that is part of the real world, how much of that is myth?

MCCANN: The top three are your real world. The bottom two are eluded to, maybe, to make somebody think, and of course, the not knowing is worse than the actual use of a method. So just someone thinking that that is an option, and that could be used against them could be a very powerful tool, but the top three are primarily in a humane way, the way that people are interrogated who don't want to give you information or are going to resist.

O'BRIEN: All right, Kelly. Take us inside this to some extent, and a bit of this, of course, is hypothetical. But based on what you know about U.S. techniques, what's the likely scenario? How would Mohammed be treated right now?

MCCANN: Well, if you think about it as a chronological event, first there is the raid environment. You are woken up out of a sound sleep at 4:00 in the morning, and suddenly, there are people, armed men, who are going to take you from your comfort zone, and your area of control. From there, you are taken to, perhaps, an area you are not told about. It might be a false flag issue, where you are led to believe you are somewhere where, in fact, you are not, and you are processed, and that process could include shaving. It could include shaving the beard which would be, obviously, difficult for a very fundamentalist person to endure. It could be done by women. That would be a very difficult thing to endure. You could be stripped naked, being made to feel very vulnerable.

All humane and all has another reason, which is safety of the people who would interrogate them, and make sure there were no weapons, etcetera. From that point, consecutively, or concurrently, all the pocket litter, the electronic data found in the guy's apartment, the diskettes, the computer, that -- cell phone memory, etcetera, is going to be started to be investigated. From there...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: All right. So you got kind of two tracks. I am sorry, go ahead, finish what you were going to say.

MCCANN: From there, basically, an initial interview is conducted with him, not by the interrogators, but to determine what the elements of his personality -- personality are that could be used against him effectively, and they'll come back with a report to the interrogation team, who will then construct a method to interrogate him, and decide whether they need to use stress and duress tactics.

O'BRIEN: All right. So, you have got a combination of humiliation, disorientation, and an attempt to find the Achilles' heel. All that is kind of going on at once. I want to pick up on that false flag for just a moment.

One of the concerns, I guess, that a person in this situation would be is if certain other intelligence agencies that might not be operating by the Marquis of Queensbury here might be in their hands. Would they try to lead a person like this to believe they might be in the hands of some other intelligence agency that might use torture, the rubber hose, whatever you want to call it?

MCCANN: Sure. Remember, that even all POWs have stated through history that the worst thing about being held against your will is the not knowing. You are not in control. So not knowing whether you are in that country, and not knowing whether you will face very inhumane treatment is of significant weight.

So, yes, those tactics could be employed. But let's remember that, in fact, humiliation may not be used, and it may not be used because it might be better to appear, anyway, to give this person some just due, if you will. It all depends on what his personality makeup is.

O'BRIEN: So there is kind of a fine line there. You want to keep him unstable, off balance, if you will, but you don't necessarily want to humiliate him.

MCCANN: Exactly. In some cases, that would be the right thing to do to start the interrogation. In other cases, it would not be the right thing to do. It's all left to people who can evaluate this person firsthand, and judge which way they want the interrogation to go, and then rudder steer it, depending on what information is forthcoming or not. O'BRIEN: So you have to sort of let the suspect, if you will, the person in custody, guide you through this process. It really amounts to a very intricate mind game. A game of chess, if you will, as opposed to brute physical force. In other words, this idea of beating facts out of people doesn't really exist in the real world.

MCCANN: That's exactly right, because you'll always wonder whether or not the facts are, in fact, facts or whether he just wanted pain to stop. And also, you run the risk of if you beat a person, and he is able to resist it, you've empowered him, you have made him think in his head, is that all you have? That's it? And you have made him stronger. So this is more an art than a science, and one that I think Mr. Mohammed will find is irreversible. In other words, he will not be able to resist it.

O'BRIEN: All right. But there's one thing here. We've talked at length, when we talk about al Qaeda, about these terrorist training camps that go to, and surely one of the things they learn, chapter and verse, is how to resist this very thing you're talking about. Surely Mohammed has had some exposure to that sort of training, hasn't he, and if so, could he employ it?

MCCANN: The big question is, do they? If you look at the American military, United States general officers don't retrieve -- don't receive the same kind of firsthand training in -- for instance, survival, escape, and resistance as captains, majors, more people that would be likely to be taken into captivity.

So if you apply the same kind of understanding, did he actually get that same kind of rough treatment training that was being done in Afghanistan, or was he just the beneficiary of reading the manual, too totally different things, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Before we get away, we just saw the Maria Ressa piece where she talked about this guy being anything but strict to Islamic codes, liked the ladies, liked the night life, playboy-type of individual. Does that help people trying to get something out of him? Does that expose certain weaknesses that might not be there otherwise?

MCCANN: Well, the first thing I would say is Muslims worldwide should take note, shouldn't they? The second thing is that yes, it could. It could be used against him, even if it is meant that now that's publicly disclosed people will know, he'll lose stature, and then it could also be used because that would demonstrate a softer life than being in a connex (ph) box being questioned under harsh lights.

O'BRIEN: And one quick one before you get away. Don't you think that the operatives involved in this would prefer that this didn't -- hadn't come out, that they had some time to interview him before the world knew about his arrest?

MCCANN: It depends. I think the war on terrorism is being intelligently prosecuted, and I don't think that if it would seem to have been detrimental that it would have been released. If you remember when Binalshibh was first arrested, we didn't know for three or four days who it was. We knew immediately on this. So it might be an exciter mission, where it was meant in order to send a shockwave throughout the community, excite the network, get people to communicate so that we can then exploit them as targets as well.

O'BRIEN: But bottom line here, it wouldn't be an accident that it got out. In other words, it was meant to get out, probably, you think?

MCCANN: I would say that that would be the case.

O'BRIEN: kelly McCann, always appreciate hearing your insights. Thanks for being with us.

MCCANN: You bet, Miles.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired March 3, 2003 - 13:15   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Now that Mohammed is in custody, what will the authorities do? How will they deal with him? For those of us who are familiar, mostly, with interrogation as depicted by Hollywood, you might think about bright lights and rubber hoses and so forth. That is not really how it goes down.
For more on that, we turn now to one of our experts on such matters, J. Kelly McCann joining us from Washington -- Kelly, good to see you.

J. KELLY, MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Hi, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's go through the tote board of familiar items that those of us who have a casual understanding of how these things go -- we have a full screen, which are sort of the menu of options which could be available to somebody trying to interrogate the likes of Mohammed.

Among the things on the list, if we can get that list up for us is a same question asked different ways, sleep deprivation, make the person uncomfortable, drugs, and then ultimately torture and force.

Kelly, how much of that is part of the real world, how much of that is myth?

MCCANN: The top three are your real world. The bottom two are eluded to, maybe, to make somebody think, and of course, the not knowing is worse than the actual use of a method. So just someone thinking that that is an option, and that could be used against them could be a very powerful tool, but the top three are primarily in a humane way, the way that people are interrogated who don't want to give you information or are going to resist.

O'BRIEN: All right, Kelly. Take us inside this to some extent, and a bit of this, of course, is hypothetical. But based on what you know about U.S. techniques, what's the likely scenario? How would Mohammed be treated right now?

MCCANN: Well, if you think about it as a chronological event, first there is the raid environment. You are woken up out of a sound sleep at 4:00 in the morning, and suddenly, there are people, armed men, who are going to take you from your comfort zone, and your area of control. From there, you are taken to, perhaps, an area you are not told about. It might be a false flag issue, where you are led to believe you are somewhere where, in fact, you are not, and you are processed, and that process could include shaving. It could include shaving the beard which would be, obviously, difficult for a very fundamentalist person to endure. It could be done by women. That would be a very difficult thing to endure. You could be stripped naked, being made to feel very vulnerable.

All humane and all has another reason, which is safety of the people who would interrogate them, and make sure there were no weapons, etcetera. From that point, consecutively, or concurrently, all the pocket litter, the electronic data found in the guy's apartment, the diskettes, the computer, that -- cell phone memory, etcetera, is going to be started to be investigated. From there...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: All right. So you got kind of two tracks. I am sorry, go ahead, finish what you were going to say.

MCCANN: From there, basically, an initial interview is conducted with him, not by the interrogators, but to determine what the elements of his personality -- personality are that could be used against him effectively, and they'll come back with a report to the interrogation team, who will then construct a method to interrogate him, and decide whether they need to use stress and duress tactics.

O'BRIEN: All right. So, you have got a combination of humiliation, disorientation, and an attempt to find the Achilles' heel. All that is kind of going on at once. I want to pick up on that false flag for just a moment.

One of the concerns, I guess, that a person in this situation would be is if certain other intelligence agencies that might not be operating by the Marquis of Queensbury here might be in their hands. Would they try to lead a person like this to believe they might be in the hands of some other intelligence agency that might use torture, the rubber hose, whatever you want to call it?

MCCANN: Sure. Remember, that even all POWs have stated through history that the worst thing about being held against your will is the not knowing. You are not in control. So not knowing whether you are in that country, and not knowing whether you will face very inhumane treatment is of significant weight.

So, yes, those tactics could be employed. But let's remember that, in fact, humiliation may not be used, and it may not be used because it might be better to appear, anyway, to give this person some just due, if you will. It all depends on what his personality makeup is.

O'BRIEN: So there is kind of a fine line there. You want to keep him unstable, off balance, if you will, but you don't necessarily want to humiliate him.

MCCANN: Exactly. In some cases, that would be the right thing to do to start the interrogation. In other cases, it would not be the right thing to do. It's all left to people who can evaluate this person firsthand, and judge which way they want the interrogation to go, and then rudder steer it, depending on what information is forthcoming or not. O'BRIEN: So you have to sort of let the suspect, if you will, the person in custody, guide you through this process. It really amounts to a very intricate mind game. A game of chess, if you will, as opposed to brute physical force. In other words, this idea of beating facts out of people doesn't really exist in the real world.

MCCANN: That's exactly right, because you'll always wonder whether or not the facts are, in fact, facts or whether he just wanted pain to stop. And also, you run the risk of if you beat a person, and he is able to resist it, you've empowered him, you have made him think in his head, is that all you have? That's it? And you have made him stronger. So this is more an art than a science, and one that I think Mr. Mohammed will find is irreversible. In other words, he will not be able to resist it.

O'BRIEN: All right. But there's one thing here. We've talked at length, when we talk about al Qaeda, about these terrorist training camps that go to, and surely one of the things they learn, chapter and verse, is how to resist this very thing you're talking about. Surely Mohammed has had some exposure to that sort of training, hasn't he, and if so, could he employ it?

MCCANN: The big question is, do they? If you look at the American military, United States general officers don't retrieve -- don't receive the same kind of firsthand training in -- for instance, survival, escape, and resistance as captains, majors, more people that would be likely to be taken into captivity.

So if you apply the same kind of understanding, did he actually get that same kind of rough treatment training that was being done in Afghanistan, or was he just the beneficiary of reading the manual, too totally different things, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Before we get away, we just saw the Maria Ressa piece where she talked about this guy being anything but strict to Islamic codes, liked the ladies, liked the night life, playboy-type of individual. Does that help people trying to get something out of him? Does that expose certain weaknesses that might not be there otherwise?

MCCANN: Well, the first thing I would say is Muslims worldwide should take note, shouldn't they? The second thing is that yes, it could. It could be used against him, even if it is meant that now that's publicly disclosed people will know, he'll lose stature, and then it could also be used because that would demonstrate a softer life than being in a connex (ph) box being questioned under harsh lights.

O'BRIEN: And one quick one before you get away. Don't you think that the operatives involved in this would prefer that this didn't -- hadn't come out, that they had some time to interview him before the world knew about his arrest?

MCCANN: It depends. I think the war on terrorism is being intelligently prosecuted, and I don't think that if it would seem to have been detrimental that it would have been released. If you remember when Binalshibh was first arrested, we didn't know for three or four days who it was. We knew immediately on this. So it might be an exciter mission, where it was meant in order to send a shockwave throughout the community, excite the network, get people to communicate so that we can then exploit them as targets as well.

O'BRIEN: But bottom line here, it wouldn't be an accident that it got out. In other words, it was meant to get out, probably, you think?

MCCANN: I would say that that would be the case.

O'BRIEN: kelly McCann, always appreciate hearing your insights. Thanks for being with us.

MCCANN: You bet, Miles.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com