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Interview With Kenneth Woodward

Aired March 04, 2003 - 14:41   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush's religious rhetoric has raised some eyebrows lately. He has moved from broad statements of faith to perhaps a more evangelical focus. That's the cover story of the latest issue of "Newsweek." Kenneth Woodward heads the magazine's religious section. He joins us from New York City.
Mr. Woodward, good to have you with us.

KENNETH WOODWARD, "NEWSWEEK": Thank you.

O'BRIEN: The president's rhetoric is in many cases, hearkens and references religion extensively. Is it a big departure for a president or is it just a continuum here?

WOODWARD: Not at all. Everybody since George Washington has invoked the Almighty in one form or another especially in time of war. Roosevelt had a special prayer when we were ending World War II.

What bothers people, I think, they somehow see this man as rather more confident of knowing God's will than perhaps any president ought to.

O'BRIEN: How do you interpret that? Where do you get that sense?

WOODWARD: Well, I think -- and he's in a tough spot here. I think it's the -- it's the identification with -- of Saddam with evil. You know, and it's interesting, he gets paid back in the same way. We're the Great Satan, for that matter.

Sometimes in rallying a nation, you can draw things in colors that are unfortunately just black and white. And it doesn't allow for a lot of nuance. He seems to be, not by virtue of religion, I would think, but by virtue of personality or character, a man who once he makes up his mind, he's made up his mind.

And to identify that habit of mind with certainty that I am doing God's will can be disturbing, because he has expressed himself privately that way.

O'BRIEN: Yes. Let me ask you about his faith. How would you describe it? It seems as if it's a bit eclectic. He draws from a lot of philosophies, it seems to me.

WOODWARD: Well, it isn't so much eclectic. You have to look at the way he got religion. To know that he goes to a Methodist church doesn't tell you anything because as a denomination the United Methodist Church has been very liberal and certainly different from the political posture of the president.

He got his religion in what we call "the small group movement," a Bible study class. And that tends to emphasize what God can and has done for me. In this case, helped me get over a drinking habit.

This one-on-one relationship with God, however, does not give you much of a religious-based vision for governing and having a just society. So for that, he's had to go to other traditions. Initially to the Roman Catholic. He got tutored in Catholic teachings of social justice. And more recently his rhetoric has been rather Calvinist, God's providence.

O'BRIEN: So, how does this really impact itself on the real policies that affect you and I?

WOODWARD: Well, I think, you know, I think, for example, the faith-based initiative. Now it seems to me you can look at that and say, fine, let's have religious organizations more involved. They're very effective. That's what the studies seem to indicate.

The problem would be if you tried to substitute this for government programs, because no matter how many churches, mosques and synagogues you lined for good work, it isn't going to be able to duplicate the work of a just and caring society through the government.

The other thing is, as I said, this kind of moral certainty about going to war and going to war in the way he's decided to do it. There are an awful lot of people who think he ought to be a little bit more humble about this kind of thing. And standing under God means standing under God's judgment rather than saying, I know this is the will of God.

O'BRIEN: Is there a genuine concern here that the president in embracing this rhetoric blurs that line of separation between church and state?

WOODWARD: Oh, not at all. You know, I mean, everybody believes in church/state separation. The difference, Miles, is where they draw the line. Personally, I think he's -- I think he's right in a practical sense to try to encourage and -- church-related organizations to do more and to get federal funds to help to do that. Other people would draw the line someplace else. I don't think he's blurred the line there at all.

O'BRIEN: Kenneth Woodward with "Newsweek" magazine looks at religious issues for that publication. Thanks very much for being with us.

WOODWARD: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on the issue of God and President Bush on newsstands right now. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired March 4, 2003 - 14:41   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush's religious rhetoric has raised some eyebrows lately. He has moved from broad statements of faith to perhaps a more evangelical focus. That's the cover story of the latest issue of "Newsweek." Kenneth Woodward heads the magazine's religious section. He joins us from New York City.
Mr. Woodward, good to have you with us.

KENNETH WOODWARD, "NEWSWEEK": Thank you.

O'BRIEN: The president's rhetoric is in many cases, hearkens and references religion extensively. Is it a big departure for a president or is it just a continuum here?

WOODWARD: Not at all. Everybody since George Washington has invoked the Almighty in one form or another especially in time of war. Roosevelt had a special prayer when we were ending World War II.

What bothers people, I think, they somehow see this man as rather more confident of knowing God's will than perhaps any president ought to.

O'BRIEN: How do you interpret that? Where do you get that sense?

WOODWARD: Well, I think -- and he's in a tough spot here. I think it's the -- it's the identification with -- of Saddam with evil. You know, and it's interesting, he gets paid back in the same way. We're the Great Satan, for that matter.

Sometimes in rallying a nation, you can draw things in colors that are unfortunately just black and white. And it doesn't allow for a lot of nuance. He seems to be, not by virtue of religion, I would think, but by virtue of personality or character, a man who once he makes up his mind, he's made up his mind.

And to identify that habit of mind with certainty that I am doing God's will can be disturbing, because he has expressed himself privately that way.

O'BRIEN: Yes. Let me ask you about his faith. How would you describe it? It seems as if it's a bit eclectic. He draws from a lot of philosophies, it seems to me.

WOODWARD: Well, it isn't so much eclectic. You have to look at the way he got religion. To know that he goes to a Methodist church doesn't tell you anything because as a denomination the United Methodist Church has been very liberal and certainly different from the political posture of the president.

He got his religion in what we call "the small group movement," a Bible study class. And that tends to emphasize what God can and has done for me. In this case, helped me get over a drinking habit.

This one-on-one relationship with God, however, does not give you much of a religious-based vision for governing and having a just society. So for that, he's had to go to other traditions. Initially to the Roman Catholic. He got tutored in Catholic teachings of social justice. And more recently his rhetoric has been rather Calvinist, God's providence.

O'BRIEN: So, how does this really impact itself on the real policies that affect you and I?

WOODWARD: Well, I think, you know, I think, for example, the faith-based initiative. Now it seems to me you can look at that and say, fine, let's have religious organizations more involved. They're very effective. That's what the studies seem to indicate.

The problem would be if you tried to substitute this for government programs, because no matter how many churches, mosques and synagogues you lined for good work, it isn't going to be able to duplicate the work of a just and caring society through the government.

The other thing is, as I said, this kind of moral certainty about going to war and going to war in the way he's decided to do it. There are an awful lot of people who think he ought to be a little bit more humble about this kind of thing. And standing under God means standing under God's judgment rather than saying, I know this is the will of God.

O'BRIEN: Is there a genuine concern here that the president in embracing this rhetoric blurs that line of separation between church and state?

WOODWARD: Oh, not at all. You know, I mean, everybody believes in church/state separation. The difference, Miles, is where they draw the line. Personally, I think he's -- I think he's right in a practical sense to try to encourage and -- church-related organizations to do more and to get federal funds to help to do that. Other people would draw the line someplace else. I don't think he's blurred the line there at all.

O'BRIEN: Kenneth Woodward with "Newsweek" magazine looks at religious issues for that publication. Thanks very much for being with us.

WOODWARD: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on the issue of God and President Bush on newsstands right now. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com