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Urban Warfare Analysis With Patrick Gallagher
Aired April 04, 2003 - 14:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Well, as for the capital city itself, it's hard to imagine that the coalition will be able to declare any sort of victory, unless it does get control of that city. And that, understandably, is going to mean some sort of urban warfare, we have to assume, unless there's a complete capitulation.
With us to talk about all that is retired Army Major Patrick Gallagher. He is a former commander of Ranger and special forces units.
Major Gallagher, good to see you. Thank you for being with us.
MAJ. PATRICK GALLAGHER (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Thank you.
WOODRUFF: We know, of course, the Pentagon isn't saying how they're going to deal with Baghdad, they say they're still collecting information. But what are the realistic options right now?
GALLAGHER: As I see it, there's probably four courses of action that U.S. forces have. That's a complete encirclement of Baghdad, and not doing anything from a siege standpoint, which...
WOODRUFF: And we don't have a complete circle around the city yet, right.
GALLAGHER: Not yet, we do not, no. We've established a stronghold, of course, with the airport, and now have a base of operations to launch from in that particular vicinity.
The complete encirclement, though,is not very good from a humanitarian standpoint, as far as the Iraqis living in Baghdad.
WOODRUFF: This would be a siege...
GALLAGHER: Yes, ma'am.
WOODRUFF: ... that you're describing...
GALLAGHER: Correct.
WOODRUFF: ... in effect...
GALLAGHER: Just...
WOODRUFF: ... where you just cut everything off. GALLAGHER: ... cut everything off, nothing in, nothing out. As we have seen today, though, Iraqis are leaving and fleeing Baghdad. So, of course, we haven't completely encircled it, and I don't think we're going to seize the city of Baghdad in the same way that the Germans seized Leningrad in World War II.
WOODRUFF: Why not? Because of worry about-
GALLAGHER: Of course. We're not that kind...
WOODRUFF: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
GALLAGHER: ... of people. We're not going to inflict those kinds of injuries to noncombatants.
WOODRUFF: So what are the other options?
GALLAGHER: The other options are having to clear the city of potential threats. Several ways to go about that.
One obvious one, of course, is to go in and strong-point the city and work from strategic assets or strategic locations, such as power facilities, the transportation facilities, transmission facilities, et cetera, those kinds of things, and then be able to place weapons systems of some type to protect our forces and protect Iraqis from (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
WOODRUFF: Power plant, water facilities...
GALLAGHER: Well, to protect those facilities...
WOODRUFF: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
GALLAGHER: ... but also emplace ourselves on higher ground, so that we have clear field to fire, that we can react to things, and see things a little quicker.
WOODRUFF: So height is...
GALLAGHER: Correct.
WOODRUFF: ... where you are in terms of...
GALLAGHER: Yes, correct. Now, Baghdad's...
WOODRUFF: ... being able to look down.
GALLAGHER: Correct. Now, Baghdad's a low city to begin with just because of the architecture of the city. There are not very many tall buildings, so you only have several stories to deal with across the entire area of the city. You don't have tall buildings like we have in some of the major cities in the Western world.
WOODRUFF: Now, you were saying there are a couple of other options. GALLAGHER: Well, another option is to, of course, the most deadliest way to pursue this is to clear block by block and building by building. And that's just going to take a heavy toll on us as well as the Iraqis.
The fourth one is to isolate areas and clear the less restricted areas or the less dangerous areas, and the more friendly areas first, so that we can build a cleared area and sort of our own coalition of local Iraqis.
WOODRUFF: So how do you know where to do that? I mean, we know, for example, there's a large Shi'a population in certain neighborhoods of Baghdad. How would you know what areas to go in first, where you could expect to meet friendly -- where people who would be friendly to you?
GALLAGHER: Well, we would use, and I hope we're using, I'm sure we are, Iraqis already to kind of garner that intelligence, and introduce us to the people that would help us get to those locations, and know that this area versus another area is the type of area that we're ready to go into.
WOODRUFF: It sounds like, though, you are saying this first -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) could it be some combination?
GALLAGHER: Oh, sure, it...
WOODRUFF: Of these?
GALLAGHER: ... could be a combination. I would think that we will probably employ all four of those courses of action in some way, shape, or form.
WOODRUFF: And how would that work -- I mean, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), first of all, you've got to get in -- you've got to be able to encircle the city.
GALLAGHER: Correct.
WOODRUFF: And as you point out, we're not there, the coalition not there yet. Then go in and move into these, as you point out, strategic spots, direct spots.
GALLAGHER: Direct spots. And then, I would think, target some of the areas that are less dangerous, more friendly to U.S. or coalition forces. And then as we move into the more dangerous areas, we get into a block-by-block, building-by-building clearing scenario.
WOODRUFF: How risky an operation are you describing?
GALLAGHER: Warfare is risky enough to begin with. But urban combat gets much more riskier, given the fact that you have such close proximity to the -- to each other. So there are more places to hide, more places to get ambushed from, more places to be shot from, et cetera. WOODRUFF: But given what we know, what you know about the strength of the coalition forces, any doubt in your mind that this can be done?
GALLAGHER: Oh, it can be done. It's just going to take a little bit of time, and it's going to take some resources. And I would venture to say that we can expect more loss of life, not only on the Iraqi side, but also on the coalition side, in having to go through that kind of combat.
WOODRUFF: And how much time? And I'm asking you about the time, major, because at the Pentagon yesterday, they were describing sort of a rolling end game here, where they would occupy part of the Baghdad area, perhaps, declare victory, and then work with what they had, rather than assuming they had to have everything.
GALLAGHER: General Brooks mentioned, I believe, into the CentCom briefing this morning, that time is on our side. So CentCom has no set time schedule that they at least are announcing publicly in order to finish this.
And the safety of the Iraqi people and coalition forces and the extraction of the Iraqi regime are forefront in their minds. So now that we control 80 percent of the country, time is on our side (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
WOODRUFF: Are you just saying we can wipe them out?
GALLAGHER: Sort of. I mean, in a siege, that's kind of what you are doing. So if we start to apply the siege mentality as a phased approach to the clearing of Baghdad, yes, we can do that, and sit and wait them out.
WOODRUFF: So some kind of a siege you're describing.
GALLAGHER: Correct.
WOODRUFF: All right. Retired Army Major Patrick Gallagher. As we said, he's a former commander of Rangers and special forces units. We thank you so much.
GALLAGHER: Yes, ma'am, thank you.
WOODRUFF: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) talking to you throughout the day at different times on CNN. We thank you for talking with us.
GALLAGHER: OK.
WOODRUFF: We appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 4, 2003 - 14:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Well, as for the capital city itself, it's hard to imagine that the coalition will be able to declare any sort of victory, unless it does get control of that city. And that, understandably, is going to mean some sort of urban warfare, we have to assume, unless there's a complete capitulation.
With us to talk about all that is retired Army Major Patrick Gallagher. He is a former commander of Ranger and special forces units.
Major Gallagher, good to see you. Thank you for being with us.
MAJ. PATRICK GALLAGHER (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Thank you.
WOODRUFF: We know, of course, the Pentagon isn't saying how they're going to deal with Baghdad, they say they're still collecting information. But what are the realistic options right now?
GALLAGHER: As I see it, there's probably four courses of action that U.S. forces have. That's a complete encirclement of Baghdad, and not doing anything from a siege standpoint, which...
WOODRUFF: And we don't have a complete circle around the city yet, right.
GALLAGHER: Not yet, we do not, no. We've established a stronghold, of course, with the airport, and now have a base of operations to launch from in that particular vicinity.
The complete encirclement, though,is not very good from a humanitarian standpoint, as far as the Iraqis living in Baghdad.
WOODRUFF: This would be a siege...
GALLAGHER: Yes, ma'am.
WOODRUFF: ... that you're describing...
GALLAGHER: Correct.
WOODRUFF: ... in effect...
GALLAGHER: Just...
WOODRUFF: ... where you just cut everything off. GALLAGHER: ... cut everything off, nothing in, nothing out. As we have seen today, though, Iraqis are leaving and fleeing Baghdad. So, of course, we haven't completely encircled it, and I don't think we're going to seize the city of Baghdad in the same way that the Germans seized Leningrad in World War II.
WOODRUFF: Why not? Because of worry about-
GALLAGHER: Of course. We're not that kind...
WOODRUFF: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
GALLAGHER: ... of people. We're not going to inflict those kinds of injuries to noncombatants.
WOODRUFF: So what are the other options?
GALLAGHER: The other options are having to clear the city of potential threats. Several ways to go about that.
One obvious one, of course, is to go in and strong-point the city and work from strategic assets or strategic locations, such as power facilities, the transportation facilities, transmission facilities, et cetera, those kinds of things, and then be able to place weapons systems of some type to protect our forces and protect Iraqis from (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
WOODRUFF: Power plant, water facilities...
GALLAGHER: Well, to protect those facilities...
WOODRUFF: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
GALLAGHER: ... but also emplace ourselves on higher ground, so that we have clear field to fire, that we can react to things, and see things a little quicker.
WOODRUFF: So height is...
GALLAGHER: Correct.
WOODRUFF: ... where you are in terms of...
GALLAGHER: Yes, correct. Now, Baghdad's...
WOODRUFF: ... being able to look down.
GALLAGHER: Correct. Now, Baghdad's a low city to begin with just because of the architecture of the city. There are not very many tall buildings, so you only have several stories to deal with across the entire area of the city. You don't have tall buildings like we have in some of the major cities in the Western world.
WOODRUFF: Now, you were saying there are a couple of other options. GALLAGHER: Well, another option is to, of course, the most deadliest way to pursue this is to clear block by block and building by building. And that's just going to take a heavy toll on us as well as the Iraqis.
The fourth one is to isolate areas and clear the less restricted areas or the less dangerous areas, and the more friendly areas first, so that we can build a cleared area and sort of our own coalition of local Iraqis.
WOODRUFF: So how do you know where to do that? I mean, we know, for example, there's a large Shi'a population in certain neighborhoods of Baghdad. How would you know what areas to go in first, where you could expect to meet friendly -- where people who would be friendly to you?
GALLAGHER: Well, we would use, and I hope we're using, I'm sure we are, Iraqis already to kind of garner that intelligence, and introduce us to the people that would help us get to those locations, and know that this area versus another area is the type of area that we're ready to go into.
WOODRUFF: It sounds like, though, you are saying this first -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) could it be some combination?
GALLAGHER: Oh, sure, it...
WOODRUFF: Of these?
GALLAGHER: ... could be a combination. I would think that we will probably employ all four of those courses of action in some way, shape, or form.
WOODRUFF: And how would that work -- I mean, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), first of all, you've got to get in -- you've got to be able to encircle the city.
GALLAGHER: Correct.
WOODRUFF: And as you point out, we're not there, the coalition not there yet. Then go in and move into these, as you point out, strategic spots, direct spots.
GALLAGHER: Direct spots. And then, I would think, target some of the areas that are less dangerous, more friendly to U.S. or coalition forces. And then as we move into the more dangerous areas, we get into a block-by-block, building-by-building clearing scenario.
WOODRUFF: How risky an operation are you describing?
GALLAGHER: Warfare is risky enough to begin with. But urban combat gets much more riskier, given the fact that you have such close proximity to the -- to each other. So there are more places to hide, more places to get ambushed from, more places to be shot from, et cetera. WOODRUFF: But given what we know, what you know about the strength of the coalition forces, any doubt in your mind that this can be done?
GALLAGHER: Oh, it can be done. It's just going to take a little bit of time, and it's going to take some resources. And I would venture to say that we can expect more loss of life, not only on the Iraqi side, but also on the coalition side, in having to go through that kind of combat.
WOODRUFF: And how much time? And I'm asking you about the time, major, because at the Pentagon yesterday, they were describing sort of a rolling end game here, where they would occupy part of the Baghdad area, perhaps, declare victory, and then work with what they had, rather than assuming they had to have everything.
GALLAGHER: General Brooks mentioned, I believe, into the CentCom briefing this morning, that time is on our side. So CentCom has no set time schedule that they at least are announcing publicly in order to finish this.
And the safety of the Iraqi people and coalition forces and the extraction of the Iraqi regime are forefront in their minds. So now that we control 80 percent of the country, time is on our side (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
WOODRUFF: Are you just saying we can wipe them out?
GALLAGHER: Sort of. I mean, in a siege, that's kind of what you are doing. So if we start to apply the siege mentality as a phased approach to the clearing of Baghdad, yes, we can do that, and sit and wait them out.
WOODRUFF: So some kind of a siege you're describing.
GALLAGHER: Correct.
WOODRUFF: All right. Retired Army Major Patrick Gallagher. As we said, he's a former commander of Rangers and special forces units. We thank you so much.
GALLAGHER: Yes, ma'am, thank you.
WOODRUFF: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) talking to you throughout the day at different times on CNN. We thank you for talking with us.
GALLAGHER: OK.
WOODRUFF: We appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com