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Interview with Ahmad Chalabi of Iraqi National Congress

Aired April 09, 2003 - 12:10   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We have on the phone Ahmad Chalabi, the leader of the Iraqi National Congress, exile group leader who has been working over these many, many years to topple the Saddam Hussein regime.
Mr. Chalabi, if you can hear me, I understand, you are now with some what are called Free Iraqi Forces in southern Iraq, in Nasiriyah, is that right?

AHMAD CHALABI, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: Yes. That is correct.

BLITZER: Tell us what you are doing and what your game plan is for the immediate hours and days ahead.

CHALABI: Well, we are helping out both remnants of the Baath Party and caches of Saddam Fedayeen from areas where they still are holed up in her. We are spreading the message that the end of the tyranny is over. We are giving aid and comfort to the people that Saddam will not come back and the Baath Party is gone. and we are working on an immediate program of de-Baath-ification with the people.

In Iraq, We had a rally that was attended by several thousand people, overwhelmingly positive reception. And they are all, all very thankful for Bush helping the Iraqi people.

BLITZER: Well, Mr. Chalabi, when did you leave Nasiriyah and head to Baghdad?

CHALABI: We will be leaving very soon towards Baghdad, and hope to be meeting with many, many of our fellow Iraqis. It's very important for the people of southern Iraq...

BLITZER: I think we're unfortunately losing Mr. Chalabi's connection on the telephone.

Christiane Amanpour is still with me.

Mr. Chalabi, can you hear me now?

I think we're getting you in and out. This is Wolf Blitzer in Kuwait City. Can you hear me Ahmad Chalabi.

CHALABI: Yes, I can hear you.

BLITZER: All right, I'm glad we've got you back.

You were telling our viewers when you're planning on leaving the southern part of Iraq, Nasiriyah, where you are now, and actually heading in to Baghdad.

CHALABI: We will be moving very soon towards Baghdad, but it's very important to be in the southern part of Iraq, because people will have in the past been dispossessed, they have been oppressed by Saddam. They must feel empowered as soon as possible. They must feel that they are part of the political process, and we are doing that and assuring them that they are.

BLITZER: Mr. Chalabi, we know that the INC, the Iraqi National Congress and you have always had good sources inside Iraq itself. What, if anything, do you know about the fate of Saddam Hussein and his two sons?

CHALABI: They are in Baruba (ph), to the northeast of Baghdad. And we also have the report today that Ali Hassan Majeed is also there, and he's wounded and not dead. We have not confirmed those reports yet. And we have..

BLITZER: As you know Ali Hassan Majeed, the so-called Chemical Ali, both the British military and the U.S. military say they do have evidence that he was killed in the attack over the weekend. You're saying now that...

CHALABI: I have heard reports.

BLITZER: You are saying not?

CHALABI: Of course. We have heard the report, of course, that the military has said that they found his body, but I'm -- we just also received the report today that he was smuggled into Baghdad by some tribesman, and that he has wounds also, and he has gone to the Diyala (ph) district in the northeast of Baghdad. What I have said to you, we have not confirmed this report yet. and we are investigating this one.

BLITZER: And you believe that Saddam Hussein and his two sons, or at least one or two of his sons survived the U.S. bombing attack in the Mansour district of Baghdad the other day?

CHALABI: We have no evidence that they have been killed in that attack. We know at least that Qusay, his son, has survived, and he's occupying some houses in the Diyala (ph) area.

BLITZER: Christiane Amanpour is with me, Mr. Chalabi. She wants to ask you a question as well -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Chalabi, you were talking about the De-Baath-ification of those towns. How much of that political structure is left?

CHALABI: The Baath Party has spread around their forces, the Fedayeen and the Baath Party organization. They have pulled back from important centers. They have gone into villages where they have -- they think they have support, and they are calling on tribal associations to protect them at this time. And they continue to have weapons, and they continue to have money at their disposal, and they continue to be a source of fear for the populous. Today's rally was very important, to have a rally in Nasiriyah to show the people that the regime of Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party is over, and the thing that got the most applause from the people was when I said that there is no return for the Baath Party. It must be uprooted, and the De-Baath-ification process must begin here and be repeated. I said, of course, this was not require violence against members of the Baath Party. It means that we destroy and uproot the structure of this evil party.

AMANPOUR: Do you think they still present any kind of armed threat to what's going on, and is there any law and order force in Nasiriyah, for instance, right now? Are the Americans still there?

CHALABI: The Americans are there, but they are not very much in contact with the population. They are in strong points. They have checkpoints on one of the bridges, and they occupy some points in the town. There is a genuine security fear in the town, the police have -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and many, many of the local leaders have come to see me, and their first demand is to establish security, followed by electricity and water. But security for them is the most important. The Baath continue to pose a problem for the people, and they are rapidly trying to ingratiate themselves with whoever they can, and they try to bamboozle American commanders into cooperating with them, but we are making sure that people know exactly what they're getting into, and that the Baathists must not be put in any positions of authority at this time.

BLITZER: Mr. Chalabi, this is Wolf Blitzer again in Kuwait City.

What about the immediate plans in the next several hours and days? You're still in Nasiriyah. As you know, the U.S. government has a game plan in mind to start a transition with U.S. leadership under the command of the retired U.S. General Jay Garner. He's bringing in all sorts of experts. Will you be working with them, your organization, other Iraqi opposition groups, to set some sort of transition of authority from Saddam Hussein's regime to a new Iraqi regime, a new Iraqi government over the -- you said over the weekend on "60 Minutes," it would take what, two years for that to happen?

CHALABI: Yes. But where is General Garner now? The people need assistance here in Nasiriyah. Why are they not here? Why don't they work to rehabilitate the electricity and water? Why don't they start working on the curriculum? Why are they in Kuwait? This area is in great need of assistance now. People are hungry. Their supplies are going to run out. Basic services have to be restored. This is true all over the town. Where are they?

BLITZER: I understand, Mr. Chalabi, they are getting ready. They want to make sure before they actually move in and take over civilian activities, whether trade, or sewer or sanitation and post office, all of these day-to-day activities that are so important, they want to make sure first it's safe and secure before they go in.

CHALABI: It is a question of which comes first, the cart or the horse. The point here is that there will be no absolute security with the current situation. The U.S. troops have defeated Saddam militarily. That was never a problem. The issue is the Baath Party and the remnants of the Baath Party who will continue to pose a threat, and those people will continue to have some influence, as long as there is no electricity, no security, and no water. We are saying that the few people who want to help the Iraqi people, they must take some risks now. We are here. We are prepared to assist the people, and we're prepared to work to get things going.

For example, there is an 800-megawatt power station in Nasiriyah, which can feed all of southern Iraq. There is a substation in Basra which must before this station works, and these people have been getting no response from the British authorities in Basra about getting this substation working. Why is not General Garner here doing that now?

BLITZER: That's a fair question, and I'm sure it will be put at the Pentagon briefing that is coming up in a little while. General Richard Myers and the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld will be meeting with reporters. I can see you irritated right now at the Bush administration for not bringing General Garner and these other civilians in to Baghdad to begin this process.

Christiane Amanpour once again is with me here in Baghdad. Christiane, I know that you have another question that you would like to ask Mr. Chalabi.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Chalabi, the issue of security, as you correctly point out, is on most people's minds. We've been talking to people in Basra, in the south and certainly people in Baghdad have been telling reporters as well. Who do you think, though, is going to do the policing? Because clearly , the administration had hoped that many of the law and order structures from the regular army, even to the police force, would remain in tact, and work on behalf of the so-called new Iraq. Who do you think is going to do the policing in the very critical days?

CHALABI: Those were forlorn hopes. The issue of policing is very, very important. Today, the Marine commander in Nasiriyah was doing a wonderful job, convened a meeting to get a police force going. We sent some of our free Iraq forces to that meeting, and we had some police officers. We sent one of them, and I think the way to move forward is to create a police force from scratch. Many of the police officers have gone home. They are afraid for themselves. They have been somehow and some way participants or witnesses to oppression by Saddam's regime, and I think they are going to face -- they're fearful about their presence in the public view at this time.

I think immediately the United States military authorities must work with free Iraqis to establish a police force and law and order structure, social leadership, the tribal leaders in this area are -- many of them came to see me in the past few days, and they all expressed the willingness to work and cooperate with us to establish a working security and police organization, and they have pledged to commit themselves to helping maintain law and order in their areas. We have done some -- in one district of Baghdad, we have done this. I won't announce which one at this time, but in one district, there has been no looting, and in contrast to the other areas of Baghdad, where we have heard reports of widespread looting and destruction of government offices. This is a problem, but we had anticipated, and we had been urging people in the U.S. government to help us establish a force of military police to deal with these issues. This is now in the past.

Now we must work very hard to get this going. I believe it is essential and crucial that we do this now.

BLITZER: Mr. Chalabi, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there. But one very, very quick final question. Are you now permanently going to stay in Iraq and begin this process of a transfer of power, or are you just staying temporarily?

CHALABI: I have returned home.

BLITZER: Ahmad Chalabi, the leader of the Iraqi National Congress. They have worked for this day, Saddam Hussein's regime effectively removed from power. Mr. Chalabi, thanks for joining us, and on behalf of Christiane Amanpour as well.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired April 9, 2003 - 12:10   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We have on the phone Ahmad Chalabi, the leader of the Iraqi National Congress, exile group leader who has been working over these many, many years to topple the Saddam Hussein regime.
Mr. Chalabi, if you can hear me, I understand, you are now with some what are called Free Iraqi Forces in southern Iraq, in Nasiriyah, is that right?

AHMAD CHALABI, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: Yes. That is correct.

BLITZER: Tell us what you are doing and what your game plan is for the immediate hours and days ahead.

CHALABI: Well, we are helping out both remnants of the Baath Party and caches of Saddam Fedayeen from areas where they still are holed up in her. We are spreading the message that the end of the tyranny is over. We are giving aid and comfort to the people that Saddam will not come back and the Baath Party is gone. and we are working on an immediate program of de-Baath-ification with the people.

In Iraq, We had a rally that was attended by several thousand people, overwhelmingly positive reception. And they are all, all very thankful for Bush helping the Iraqi people.

BLITZER: Well, Mr. Chalabi, when did you leave Nasiriyah and head to Baghdad?

CHALABI: We will be leaving very soon towards Baghdad, and hope to be meeting with many, many of our fellow Iraqis. It's very important for the people of southern Iraq...

BLITZER: I think we're unfortunately losing Mr. Chalabi's connection on the telephone.

Christiane Amanpour is still with me.

Mr. Chalabi, can you hear me now?

I think we're getting you in and out. This is Wolf Blitzer in Kuwait City. Can you hear me Ahmad Chalabi.

CHALABI: Yes, I can hear you.

BLITZER: All right, I'm glad we've got you back.

You were telling our viewers when you're planning on leaving the southern part of Iraq, Nasiriyah, where you are now, and actually heading in to Baghdad.

CHALABI: We will be moving very soon towards Baghdad, but it's very important to be in the southern part of Iraq, because people will have in the past been dispossessed, they have been oppressed by Saddam. They must feel empowered as soon as possible. They must feel that they are part of the political process, and we are doing that and assuring them that they are.

BLITZER: Mr. Chalabi, we know that the INC, the Iraqi National Congress and you have always had good sources inside Iraq itself. What, if anything, do you know about the fate of Saddam Hussein and his two sons?

CHALABI: They are in Baruba (ph), to the northeast of Baghdad. And we also have the report today that Ali Hassan Majeed is also there, and he's wounded and not dead. We have not confirmed those reports yet. And we have..

BLITZER: As you know Ali Hassan Majeed, the so-called Chemical Ali, both the British military and the U.S. military say they do have evidence that he was killed in the attack over the weekend. You're saying now that...

CHALABI: I have heard reports.

BLITZER: You are saying not?

CHALABI: Of course. We have heard the report, of course, that the military has said that they found his body, but I'm -- we just also received the report today that he was smuggled into Baghdad by some tribesman, and that he has wounds also, and he has gone to the Diyala (ph) district in the northeast of Baghdad. What I have said to you, we have not confirmed this report yet. and we are investigating this one.

BLITZER: And you believe that Saddam Hussein and his two sons, or at least one or two of his sons survived the U.S. bombing attack in the Mansour district of Baghdad the other day?

CHALABI: We have no evidence that they have been killed in that attack. We know at least that Qusay, his son, has survived, and he's occupying some houses in the Diyala (ph) area.

BLITZER: Christiane Amanpour is with me, Mr. Chalabi. She wants to ask you a question as well -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Chalabi, you were talking about the De-Baath-ification of those towns. How much of that political structure is left?

CHALABI: The Baath Party has spread around their forces, the Fedayeen and the Baath Party organization. They have pulled back from important centers. They have gone into villages where they have -- they think they have support, and they are calling on tribal associations to protect them at this time. And they continue to have weapons, and they continue to have money at their disposal, and they continue to be a source of fear for the populous. Today's rally was very important, to have a rally in Nasiriyah to show the people that the regime of Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party is over, and the thing that got the most applause from the people was when I said that there is no return for the Baath Party. It must be uprooted, and the De-Baath-ification process must begin here and be repeated. I said, of course, this was not require violence against members of the Baath Party. It means that we destroy and uproot the structure of this evil party.

AMANPOUR: Do you think they still present any kind of armed threat to what's going on, and is there any law and order force in Nasiriyah, for instance, right now? Are the Americans still there?

CHALABI: The Americans are there, but they are not very much in contact with the population. They are in strong points. They have checkpoints on one of the bridges, and they occupy some points in the town. There is a genuine security fear in the town, the police have -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and many, many of the local leaders have come to see me, and their first demand is to establish security, followed by electricity and water. But security for them is the most important. The Baath continue to pose a problem for the people, and they are rapidly trying to ingratiate themselves with whoever they can, and they try to bamboozle American commanders into cooperating with them, but we are making sure that people know exactly what they're getting into, and that the Baathists must not be put in any positions of authority at this time.

BLITZER: Mr. Chalabi, this is Wolf Blitzer again in Kuwait City.

What about the immediate plans in the next several hours and days? You're still in Nasiriyah. As you know, the U.S. government has a game plan in mind to start a transition with U.S. leadership under the command of the retired U.S. General Jay Garner. He's bringing in all sorts of experts. Will you be working with them, your organization, other Iraqi opposition groups, to set some sort of transition of authority from Saddam Hussein's regime to a new Iraqi regime, a new Iraqi government over the -- you said over the weekend on "60 Minutes," it would take what, two years for that to happen?

CHALABI: Yes. But where is General Garner now? The people need assistance here in Nasiriyah. Why are they not here? Why don't they work to rehabilitate the electricity and water? Why don't they start working on the curriculum? Why are they in Kuwait? This area is in great need of assistance now. People are hungry. Their supplies are going to run out. Basic services have to be restored. This is true all over the town. Where are they?

BLITZER: I understand, Mr. Chalabi, they are getting ready. They want to make sure before they actually move in and take over civilian activities, whether trade, or sewer or sanitation and post office, all of these day-to-day activities that are so important, they want to make sure first it's safe and secure before they go in.

CHALABI: It is a question of which comes first, the cart or the horse. The point here is that there will be no absolute security with the current situation. The U.S. troops have defeated Saddam militarily. That was never a problem. The issue is the Baath Party and the remnants of the Baath Party who will continue to pose a threat, and those people will continue to have some influence, as long as there is no electricity, no security, and no water. We are saying that the few people who want to help the Iraqi people, they must take some risks now. We are here. We are prepared to assist the people, and we're prepared to work to get things going.

For example, there is an 800-megawatt power station in Nasiriyah, which can feed all of southern Iraq. There is a substation in Basra which must before this station works, and these people have been getting no response from the British authorities in Basra about getting this substation working. Why is not General Garner here doing that now?

BLITZER: That's a fair question, and I'm sure it will be put at the Pentagon briefing that is coming up in a little while. General Richard Myers and the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld will be meeting with reporters. I can see you irritated right now at the Bush administration for not bringing General Garner and these other civilians in to Baghdad to begin this process.

Christiane Amanpour once again is with me here in Baghdad. Christiane, I know that you have another question that you would like to ask Mr. Chalabi.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Chalabi, the issue of security, as you correctly point out, is on most people's minds. We've been talking to people in Basra, in the south and certainly people in Baghdad have been telling reporters as well. Who do you think, though, is going to do the policing? Because clearly , the administration had hoped that many of the law and order structures from the regular army, even to the police force, would remain in tact, and work on behalf of the so-called new Iraq. Who do you think is going to do the policing in the very critical days?

CHALABI: Those were forlorn hopes. The issue of policing is very, very important. Today, the Marine commander in Nasiriyah was doing a wonderful job, convened a meeting to get a police force going. We sent some of our free Iraq forces to that meeting, and we had some police officers. We sent one of them, and I think the way to move forward is to create a police force from scratch. Many of the police officers have gone home. They are afraid for themselves. They have been somehow and some way participants or witnesses to oppression by Saddam's regime, and I think they are going to face -- they're fearful about their presence in the public view at this time.

I think immediately the United States military authorities must work with free Iraqis to establish a police force and law and order structure, social leadership, the tribal leaders in this area are -- many of them came to see me in the past few days, and they all expressed the willingness to work and cooperate with us to establish a working security and police organization, and they have pledged to commit themselves to helping maintain law and order in their areas. We have done some -- in one district of Baghdad, we have done this. I won't announce which one at this time, but in one district, there has been no looting, and in contrast to the other areas of Baghdad, where we have heard reports of widespread looting and destruction of government offices. This is a problem, but we had anticipated, and we had been urging people in the U.S. government to help us establish a force of military police to deal with these issues. This is now in the past.

Now we must work very hard to get this going. I believe it is essential and crucial that we do this now.

BLITZER: Mr. Chalabi, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there. But one very, very quick final question. Are you now permanently going to stay in Iraq and begin this process of a transfer of power, or are you just staying temporarily?

CHALABI: I have returned home.

BLITZER: Ahmad Chalabi, the leader of the Iraqi National Congress. They have worked for this day, Saddam Hussein's regime effectively removed from power. Mr. Chalabi, thanks for joining us, and on behalf of Christiane Amanpour as well.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com