Return to Transcripts main page
Live From...
Discussion with Michelle Flournoy
Aired April 10, 2003 - 13:23 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: As you can see from some of this video, people carrying goods, some of them large items, desks, furniture, away from offices and homes in Baghdad. We know one of the main challenges for coalition forces in Iraq is going to be re- establishing law and order. We've seen these pictures of looting and -- not just Baghdad, but other cities. And now, today's suicide bombing in Baghdad, one more reminder that the Iraqi capital is still very much a dangerous place.
Joining me now to talk about security and other issues is Michelle Flournoy of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. She's a senior adviser for the international security program there.
Mrs. Flournoy, thank you for talking to me.
I want to first quote something I saw today that U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan had to say about the situation in Baghdad and the looting. He said, namely, no one is in charge. Is he right?
MICHELLE FLOURNOY, CSIS INTL. SECURITY PROGRAM: Well, for the moment, he is right. There's a vacuum created in a situation like this, and it's very important that U.S. forces step into that vacuum, to provide a secure and stable environment, as a foundation for the rest of the reconstruction efforts. And that means they'll have to step in and do thing, at least temporarily, like policing and like providing for public order.
WOODRUFF: Well, how easy is it for them to do that at the same time they're fending off what is left of the resistance from the Saddam Hussein regime?
FLOURNOY: It's very challenging, because on the one hand, they have to continue to conduct mop-up operations, combat operations against pockets of resistance. At the same time, some elements of the force have to be focused on policing in a civilian environment. I think the most important thing is to clearly designate which unites are focused on which tasks, and to be very clear about rules of engagement, but these troops are very well trained, and I think they're up to the job, but it is very challenging.
WOODRUFF: Is it your sense that there are enough U.S. coalition troops in Baghdad and these other cities to do the job that you're describing?
FLOURNOY: It will really depend on how the security situation unfolds. I think for the moment, the answer is yes. There are also additional forces flowing into the theater as backup. But if the security situation were to deteriorate significantly, then we'd need to see additional forces come in and help.
WOODRUFF: Is it purely, Michelle Flournoy, a situation of just putting enough cops, or soldiers acting as cops, on the corners? Or are we dealing with something deeper? I heard our analyst, Ken Pollack, say just a short time ago, we're looking at a really traumatized society now. That suggests something deeper going on here.
FLOURNOY: There is something deeper. And I think it's very important we not just focus only on security, but we start focusing on meeting the immediate needs of the people, giving people real experience that today they are better off in Iraq than they were yesterday -- dealing with food, water, shelter, electricity, those kinds of things; and, very quickly, standing up an interim civil administration that has not just an American face, but primarily an Iraqi face, so that they feel things are really changing for the better and they have a stake in the future.
WOODRUFF: But how do you get that message across, how do you accomplish that, at the same time you have soldiers in uniform, carrying guns, doing the security mission that you're just describing?
FLOURNOY: Again, it's very challenging. One of the things we need to do as soon as possible is to start identifying parts of Iraqis, parts of local police forces and others, who weren't necessarily corrupted by the Baathist Party, and who can reengage in those type of policing functions, but that's going to take time.
WOODRUFF: In the meantime, U.S. troops, coalition troops have to be prepared to stay indefinitely to do this kind of work?
FLOURNOY: I think so. I think they need to be prepared to stay until we can rebuild an Iraqi army, an Iraqi police force, and that's a multi-year effort.
WOODRUFF: Now the experience of Afghanistan, some people will say, has not been a good one, because you have U.S. and the United States and its allies working in the capital, Kabul, but the rest of the country has been described as still having very serious security problems. Would you say Afghanistan is a good model for Iraq or not?
FLOURNOY: No, it's really not, Judy. I think we learned some hard lessons in Afghanistan, that we need to treat Iraq as an entire country. We can't just focus on Baghdad. We need to be in all the cities and the regional centers, are making sure that they are also experiencing a positive improvement in the situation.
WOODRUFF: What's your -- I know this may be an unanswerable question. But what are we really talking about here in terms of length of commitment on the part of the United States to maintain a serious security presence in Iraq?
FLOURNOY: I think we're talking minimum a three to five year effort, again, until we can train up Iraqi forces to step in. Remember, they have to be vetted. They have to be purged from the corrupt elements of the Saddam Hussein regime. They have to be reorganized, retrained, re-equipped and redeployed. That's not an easy effort, and it's going to take years. And until that time, we're going to be basically providing the security foundation.
WOODRUFF: Three to five years, some sobering information from Michelle Flournoy. She is with the Center for Strategic and International Studies. We appreciate your coming by to talk to us.
FLOURNOY: Thank you, my pleasure.
WOODRUFF: Thanks very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 10, 2003 - 13:23 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: As you can see from some of this video, people carrying goods, some of them large items, desks, furniture, away from offices and homes in Baghdad. We know one of the main challenges for coalition forces in Iraq is going to be re- establishing law and order. We've seen these pictures of looting and -- not just Baghdad, but other cities. And now, today's suicide bombing in Baghdad, one more reminder that the Iraqi capital is still very much a dangerous place.
Joining me now to talk about security and other issues is Michelle Flournoy of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. She's a senior adviser for the international security program there.
Mrs. Flournoy, thank you for talking to me.
I want to first quote something I saw today that U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan had to say about the situation in Baghdad and the looting. He said, namely, no one is in charge. Is he right?
MICHELLE FLOURNOY, CSIS INTL. SECURITY PROGRAM: Well, for the moment, he is right. There's a vacuum created in a situation like this, and it's very important that U.S. forces step into that vacuum, to provide a secure and stable environment, as a foundation for the rest of the reconstruction efforts. And that means they'll have to step in and do thing, at least temporarily, like policing and like providing for public order.
WOODRUFF: Well, how easy is it for them to do that at the same time they're fending off what is left of the resistance from the Saddam Hussein regime?
FLOURNOY: It's very challenging, because on the one hand, they have to continue to conduct mop-up operations, combat operations against pockets of resistance. At the same time, some elements of the force have to be focused on policing in a civilian environment. I think the most important thing is to clearly designate which unites are focused on which tasks, and to be very clear about rules of engagement, but these troops are very well trained, and I think they're up to the job, but it is very challenging.
WOODRUFF: Is it your sense that there are enough U.S. coalition troops in Baghdad and these other cities to do the job that you're describing?
FLOURNOY: It will really depend on how the security situation unfolds. I think for the moment, the answer is yes. There are also additional forces flowing into the theater as backup. But if the security situation were to deteriorate significantly, then we'd need to see additional forces come in and help.
WOODRUFF: Is it purely, Michelle Flournoy, a situation of just putting enough cops, or soldiers acting as cops, on the corners? Or are we dealing with something deeper? I heard our analyst, Ken Pollack, say just a short time ago, we're looking at a really traumatized society now. That suggests something deeper going on here.
FLOURNOY: There is something deeper. And I think it's very important we not just focus only on security, but we start focusing on meeting the immediate needs of the people, giving people real experience that today they are better off in Iraq than they were yesterday -- dealing with food, water, shelter, electricity, those kinds of things; and, very quickly, standing up an interim civil administration that has not just an American face, but primarily an Iraqi face, so that they feel things are really changing for the better and they have a stake in the future.
WOODRUFF: But how do you get that message across, how do you accomplish that, at the same time you have soldiers in uniform, carrying guns, doing the security mission that you're just describing?
FLOURNOY: Again, it's very challenging. One of the things we need to do as soon as possible is to start identifying parts of Iraqis, parts of local police forces and others, who weren't necessarily corrupted by the Baathist Party, and who can reengage in those type of policing functions, but that's going to take time.
WOODRUFF: In the meantime, U.S. troops, coalition troops have to be prepared to stay indefinitely to do this kind of work?
FLOURNOY: I think so. I think they need to be prepared to stay until we can rebuild an Iraqi army, an Iraqi police force, and that's a multi-year effort.
WOODRUFF: Now the experience of Afghanistan, some people will say, has not been a good one, because you have U.S. and the United States and its allies working in the capital, Kabul, but the rest of the country has been described as still having very serious security problems. Would you say Afghanistan is a good model for Iraq or not?
FLOURNOY: No, it's really not, Judy. I think we learned some hard lessons in Afghanistan, that we need to treat Iraq as an entire country. We can't just focus on Baghdad. We need to be in all the cities and the regional centers, are making sure that they are also experiencing a positive improvement in the situation.
WOODRUFF: What's your -- I know this may be an unanswerable question. But what are we really talking about here in terms of length of commitment on the part of the United States to maintain a serious security presence in Iraq?
FLOURNOY: I think we're talking minimum a three to five year effort, again, until we can train up Iraqi forces to step in. Remember, they have to be vetted. They have to be purged from the corrupt elements of the Saddam Hussein regime. They have to be reorganized, retrained, re-equipped and redeployed. That's not an easy effort, and it's going to take years. And until that time, we're going to be basically providing the security foundation.
WOODRUFF: Three to five years, some sobering information from Michelle Flournoy. She is with the Center for Strategic and International Studies. We appreciate your coming by to talk to us.
FLOURNOY: Thank you, my pleasure.
WOODRUFF: Thanks very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
