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Humanitarian Concerns Addressed; Extensive Restoration Anticipated
Aired April 11, 2003 - 14:50 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get to Miles O'Brien. He's standing by with CNN's military analyst, retired U.S. Air Force Major General Don Shepperd.
A close call for our correspondents and colleagues on the ground, Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, yes, and we're glad everybody is telling that tale.
Wolf Blitzer, thank you very much.
Joining me, John (sic) Shepperd, who just got off the phone with a high-ranking DOD official and can connect a few dots for us -- from what we heard from the Rumsfeld/Myers briefing about what's going on.
Let's start in the north and just move down to the south -- based on what you heard from the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Real quick.
MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Up here in the north, a surrender report of the 5th Corps -- not so. There was no formal surrender.
O'BRIEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Mosul.
SHEPPERD: In Mosul, they just melted away. Both factions of the Kurds are here in the Kirkut area. They're getting along. That's good news.
The Turks are concerned, but they've sent liaison teams, and they've been assured by the Americans that the Americans will maintain Kirkut and the Kurds will withdraw.
O'BRIEN: Just underscore for our viewers -- Kirkut is key because of its oil riches, and the concern from Turkey's perspective is that the Kurds control that. It bolsters their ability to have an independent nation.
Let's move on.
SHEPPERD: It appears that Kirkut is now secure (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
Tikrit -- all indications are that there is no major reinforcement of major combat elements of the Iraqis remaining in that area. Are able to perform a major battle. Could be pockets, but does not look like a huge, major, final stance.
O'BRIEN: It's not shaping up to be an Alamo kind of situation.
SHEPPERD: Over here in Coom (ph)
O'BRIEN: We don't have it labeled.
SHEPPERD: Coom -- right here on the border -- there has not been attacks there. However, it basically is -- I won't use the word "surrounded," but it's under control and is being watched. It may just be that it's a major border crossing. It's been hit by air. The town may surrender soon.
O'BRIEN: Could regime loyalists be using that as a point of egress to get into Syria and beyond?
SHEPPERD: That's perhaps the key to this.
O'BRIEN: All right. Let's move around down toward Baghdad.
SHEPPERD: Baghdad, of course -- control of the looting and the chaos situation there is on everyone's mind, but basically major pockets remain in Baghdad to be cleaned up by the forces that are there so there's still some major fighting in major areas of Baghdad ahead.
O'BRIEN: What about reinforcing that group there?
We haven't had a good update on the 4th Infantry, which we know is coming in through Kuwait. How long before they come in? Would they backfill these people here? Or would they go straight into Baghdad to help out?
SHEPPERD: The words that we got were that the 4th Infantry Division is well ahead of schedule, and basically you could see them appearing with major combat elements within days.
They could be used to bypass -- go to Tikrit, if necessary. They could be used to backfill and have elements that are in the Baghdad area already move up to Tikrit with shorter supply lines. Still don't know yet.
O'BRIEN: All right. But the question is -- at what point, whether it's the 4th or whoever it is -- will they have to engage in some kind of policing activity? Will they be sort of forced into that role?
SHEPPERD: Everybody in Iraq is going to be forced into that role, sooner or later, as we provide security and clean up the final pockets. You don't have to be military police to do this. All infantry soldiers can provide security, and it has to be done across the nation.
O'BRIEN: And quickly, what you said about the prisoners of war.
SHEPPERD: Yes. Nine general officers right now in custody. Only 7,500 prisoners of war because -- that's far below what we've predicted. It's because the forces are melting away and doing what the leaflet said, which is "Lay down your arms and go home."
O'BRIEN: Don Shepperd, thanks for that update. We appreciate it -- Candy.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Miles.
Now that we've gotten the overview of the military, we want to look at the humanitarian part of this war. The man charged with restoring basic services in Iraq and making sure humanitarian relief supplies get where they're needed is, right now, in the port city of Umm Qasr.
Retired Army General Jay Garner heads the office heads the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance. This is in a relief center.
Garner assured the local people things will get better.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), U.S. ARMY: We have a chance, at this moment in time, for the Iraqi people to bring democracy and the right way of life back to their people. And that's going to help them.
And all we're doing here -- all (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is doing -- is we're creating an environment where they can begin to have democracy and freedom and live in peace, not be a threat to their neighbors, and have a government that represents the duly elected will of their people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: Indeed there is a lot of work to be done in Iraq -- looting, destruction, or breakdown of domestic services. We've been watching it all for days.
What will it take to restore law and order?
Joining me now is former assistant secretary of defense, Ken Bacon. He is currently a member of the Council on Foreign Relations task force on Iraq as well as president of Refugees International.
Ken, thanks for being here.
What, right now, do you see as the overall major problem in getting humanitarian aid to Iraq?
KEN BACON, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The major problem now is lack of security.
There is chaos in Baghdad as described by the International Committee for the Red Cross. They've used the term "anarchy" as well. We've seen it over the last couple of days in Basra as well and in some other cities, including Mosul. So until we have security, a sense of safety, it's going to be very difficult to provide medical care and humanitarian aid
CROWLEY: Ken, I don't mean to be cavalier about the risk, but generally countries that need humanitarian aid are in some state of unrest.
Is this just over the line? Because I know you heard Secretary Rumsfeld say that things were calming down in Basra, for instance.
What is it about this situation that is so much more dangerous than others?
BACON: Well, the International Committee for the Red Cross, which has operated in war zones for well over a hundred years throughout the world and has operated through three weeks of bombing in Baghdad, ceased its operations two days ago in Baghdad because they said the circumstances were just too unsafe. It was too dangerous for them to operate.
They said that the hospitals have been raided and looted. Ambulances have been driven off. Medicines have been stolen. Beds have been taken. They simply can't operate in that environment.
They have warehouses filled with medicines and medical material, but they say the conditions are too unsafe for them to deliver the material to the hospitals. So they're hoping to restart their operations, but they said that the circumstances are just too chaotic at this stage.
CROWLEY: Ken, you've looked at this from both sides now -- working at the Pentagon and, now, working on the other side for humanitarian assistance. Do you understand what's going on as far as the Pentagon is looking at that -- which is, they're still fighting a war?
Are they past the point at which you think they ought to be protecting hospitals?
BACON: No. I think they have to do both. I'm very sympathetic with what the Pentagon says. They still are fighting a war. They're looking for weapons of mass destruction. They're taking fire on an irregular basis. And their first job is to get rid of the people who are shooting at them and to protect themselves.
But their second job is to begin to deliver on the promise that President Bush has made repeatedly to the Iraqi people. And that is -- that the country will be flooded with aid, that there will be a quick reconstruction and a quick calm in the country.
This is a security vacuum that should have been predicted by all, and they could have had MPs, for instance, at hand to deploy in order to protect the hospitals. That's what they're beginning to do now with their battle forces. I think they'll need many more forces in order to bring security about. CROWLEY: One last quick question, Ken. Do you think that there is the mechanism outside of Iraq to move in there peacefully and get everything done that needs to be done?
BACON: I think it's going to take some time, but I do think there's a lot of aid assembled on the outskirts of the country on the borders. There are certainly humanitarian workers. The U.N. is there in full force. And I do think that a lot can be done very quickly once there is a sense of security.
In terms of rebuilding and reconstruction, one of the tragic aspects of the violence we're seeing in Baghdad and elsewhere is that they're destroying the same infrastructure they have to rebuild -- that is, hospitals, that is some of the government buildings that could be reused if they weren't destroyed.
So it's important to stop the violence in order to begin the reconstruction.
CROWLEY: Thanks so much, Ken Bacon -- former Pentagon spokesman. Right now, president of Refugees International.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Anticipated
Aired April 11, 2003 - 14:50 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get to Miles O'Brien. He's standing by with CNN's military analyst, retired U.S. Air Force Major General Don Shepperd.
A close call for our correspondents and colleagues on the ground, Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, yes, and we're glad everybody is telling that tale.
Wolf Blitzer, thank you very much.
Joining me, John (sic) Shepperd, who just got off the phone with a high-ranking DOD official and can connect a few dots for us -- from what we heard from the Rumsfeld/Myers briefing about what's going on.
Let's start in the north and just move down to the south -- based on what you heard from the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Real quick.
MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Up here in the north, a surrender report of the 5th Corps -- not so. There was no formal surrender.
O'BRIEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Mosul.
SHEPPERD: In Mosul, they just melted away. Both factions of the Kurds are here in the Kirkut area. They're getting along. That's good news.
The Turks are concerned, but they've sent liaison teams, and they've been assured by the Americans that the Americans will maintain Kirkut and the Kurds will withdraw.
O'BRIEN: Just underscore for our viewers -- Kirkut is key because of its oil riches, and the concern from Turkey's perspective is that the Kurds control that. It bolsters their ability to have an independent nation.
Let's move on.
SHEPPERD: It appears that Kirkut is now secure (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
Tikrit -- all indications are that there is no major reinforcement of major combat elements of the Iraqis remaining in that area. Are able to perform a major battle. Could be pockets, but does not look like a huge, major, final stance.
O'BRIEN: It's not shaping up to be an Alamo kind of situation.
SHEPPERD: Over here in Coom (ph)
O'BRIEN: We don't have it labeled.
SHEPPERD: Coom -- right here on the border -- there has not been attacks there. However, it basically is -- I won't use the word "surrounded," but it's under control and is being watched. It may just be that it's a major border crossing. It's been hit by air. The town may surrender soon.
O'BRIEN: Could regime loyalists be using that as a point of egress to get into Syria and beyond?
SHEPPERD: That's perhaps the key to this.
O'BRIEN: All right. Let's move around down toward Baghdad.
SHEPPERD: Baghdad, of course -- control of the looting and the chaos situation there is on everyone's mind, but basically major pockets remain in Baghdad to be cleaned up by the forces that are there so there's still some major fighting in major areas of Baghdad ahead.
O'BRIEN: What about reinforcing that group there?
We haven't had a good update on the 4th Infantry, which we know is coming in through Kuwait. How long before they come in? Would they backfill these people here? Or would they go straight into Baghdad to help out?
SHEPPERD: The words that we got were that the 4th Infantry Division is well ahead of schedule, and basically you could see them appearing with major combat elements within days.
They could be used to bypass -- go to Tikrit, if necessary. They could be used to backfill and have elements that are in the Baghdad area already move up to Tikrit with shorter supply lines. Still don't know yet.
O'BRIEN: All right. But the question is -- at what point, whether it's the 4th or whoever it is -- will they have to engage in some kind of policing activity? Will they be sort of forced into that role?
SHEPPERD: Everybody in Iraq is going to be forced into that role, sooner or later, as we provide security and clean up the final pockets. You don't have to be military police to do this. All infantry soldiers can provide security, and it has to be done across the nation.
O'BRIEN: And quickly, what you said about the prisoners of war.
SHEPPERD: Yes. Nine general officers right now in custody. Only 7,500 prisoners of war because -- that's far below what we've predicted. It's because the forces are melting away and doing what the leaflet said, which is "Lay down your arms and go home."
O'BRIEN: Don Shepperd, thanks for that update. We appreciate it -- Candy.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Miles.
Now that we've gotten the overview of the military, we want to look at the humanitarian part of this war. The man charged with restoring basic services in Iraq and making sure humanitarian relief supplies get where they're needed is, right now, in the port city of Umm Qasr.
Retired Army General Jay Garner heads the office heads the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance. This is in a relief center.
Garner assured the local people things will get better.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), U.S. ARMY: We have a chance, at this moment in time, for the Iraqi people to bring democracy and the right way of life back to their people. And that's going to help them.
And all we're doing here -- all (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is doing -- is we're creating an environment where they can begin to have democracy and freedom and live in peace, not be a threat to their neighbors, and have a government that represents the duly elected will of their people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: Indeed there is a lot of work to be done in Iraq -- looting, destruction, or breakdown of domestic services. We've been watching it all for days.
What will it take to restore law and order?
Joining me now is former assistant secretary of defense, Ken Bacon. He is currently a member of the Council on Foreign Relations task force on Iraq as well as president of Refugees International.
Ken, thanks for being here.
What, right now, do you see as the overall major problem in getting humanitarian aid to Iraq?
KEN BACON, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The major problem now is lack of security.
There is chaos in Baghdad as described by the International Committee for the Red Cross. They've used the term "anarchy" as well. We've seen it over the last couple of days in Basra as well and in some other cities, including Mosul. So until we have security, a sense of safety, it's going to be very difficult to provide medical care and humanitarian aid
CROWLEY: Ken, I don't mean to be cavalier about the risk, but generally countries that need humanitarian aid are in some state of unrest.
Is this just over the line? Because I know you heard Secretary Rumsfeld say that things were calming down in Basra, for instance.
What is it about this situation that is so much more dangerous than others?
BACON: Well, the International Committee for the Red Cross, which has operated in war zones for well over a hundred years throughout the world and has operated through three weeks of bombing in Baghdad, ceased its operations two days ago in Baghdad because they said the circumstances were just too unsafe. It was too dangerous for them to operate.
They said that the hospitals have been raided and looted. Ambulances have been driven off. Medicines have been stolen. Beds have been taken. They simply can't operate in that environment.
They have warehouses filled with medicines and medical material, but they say the conditions are too unsafe for them to deliver the material to the hospitals. So they're hoping to restart their operations, but they said that the circumstances are just too chaotic at this stage.
CROWLEY: Ken, you've looked at this from both sides now -- working at the Pentagon and, now, working on the other side for humanitarian assistance. Do you understand what's going on as far as the Pentagon is looking at that -- which is, they're still fighting a war?
Are they past the point at which you think they ought to be protecting hospitals?
BACON: No. I think they have to do both. I'm very sympathetic with what the Pentagon says. They still are fighting a war. They're looking for weapons of mass destruction. They're taking fire on an irregular basis. And their first job is to get rid of the people who are shooting at them and to protect themselves.
But their second job is to begin to deliver on the promise that President Bush has made repeatedly to the Iraqi people. And that is -- that the country will be flooded with aid, that there will be a quick reconstruction and a quick calm in the country.
This is a security vacuum that should have been predicted by all, and they could have had MPs, for instance, at hand to deploy in order to protect the hospitals. That's what they're beginning to do now with their battle forces. I think they'll need many more forces in order to bring security about. CROWLEY: One last quick question, Ken. Do you think that there is the mechanism outside of Iraq to move in there peacefully and get everything done that needs to be done?
BACON: I think it's going to take some time, but I do think there's a lot of aid assembled on the outskirts of the country on the borders. There are certainly humanitarian workers. The U.N. is there in full force. And I do think that a lot can be done very quickly once there is a sense of security.
In terms of rebuilding and reconstruction, one of the tragic aspects of the violence we're seeing in Baghdad and elsewhere is that they're destroying the same infrastructure they have to rebuild -- that is, hospitals, that is some of the government buildings that could be reused if they weren't destroyed.
So it's important to stop the violence in order to begin the reconstruction.
CROWLEY: Thanks so much, Ken Bacon -- former Pentagon spokesman. Right now, president of Refugees International.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Anticipated
