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Difficulties of Operating in an Urban Environment

Aired April 14, 2003 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: United States forces still are meeting pockets of resistance in major cities around Iraq. If Basra is any indication of the challenges ahead in securing Baghdad, U.S. troops may still have a long road ahead.
Let's go now on that to Miles O'Brien and our military analyst, retired General Shepperd. They are in Atlanta -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Judy. General Shepperd, yesterday we watched a live firefight in and around the Palestine hotel in Baghdad, which points out some of the difficulties of operating in an urban environment, doesn't it?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: A dangerous environment, difficult environment. Without revealing tactics and techniques, we can tell people some of the ways you do it, but it's difficult no matter how you cut it, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Ultimately, they were able to identify, capture some snipers that were involved in this. Now we're talking about U.S. Marines, but a tremendous amount of fire was exchanged over the course of a fairly long period of time.

SHEPPERD: Right.

O'BRIEN: Let's continue our war college efforts here, war college 101, and show you a scenario we put together to show how Marines or U.S. Army might do a patrol in an urban environment. We put this scene together. You have a squad, actually boots on the pavement, if you will, backed up by armor, typically.

What are they thinking right here, as they're going into a zone like this? There are so many possibilities for targets to come at them, snipers or whatever.

SHEPPERD: What they're thinking is that every window and every doorway and every car they pass is a possible danger. People can shoot at them, people can blow up cars; they can blow up mines. It's a very, very difficult environment, and they're wearing all their protective gear as they do this, Miles.

O'BRIEN: And going into a door like this is a dangerous proposition in and of itself. We probably haven't depicted this entirely accurately. There would probably be a bigger force there and lots of rules about how you go in a door. SHEPPERD: Indeed. And they practice this at the Urban Warfare Training Center in North Carolina as well.

O'BRIEN: Yes. So as we continue on with this, we'll show you how the armor comes into play here. There are limitations to the use of armor in city situations, because it's designed ideally for open desert. But nevertheless, it can be very effective here. We showed -- we've got Abrams and Bradleys in a column here.

SHEPPERD: Indeed. And what these do is they do two things. They provide you mobile firepower, but they also protect the troops as you're going in. In the Bradleys, the troops ride a crew of three and a squad of six people in the Bradleys. And of course, the tanks, all of them have firepower.

In the case of the Bradley, 120-millimeter gun -- I mean in case of the M-1, the 120-millimeter gun. In the case of the Bradleys, a 25-millimeter chain gun, machine guns as well, tow weapons. So they're heavily armed when they go in and they're protecting the troops.

O'BRIEN: All right. What we've depicted is somebody who doesn't like these troops walking through their street.

SHEPPERD: You bet.

O'BRIEN: This is a rocket-propelled grenade. Off it goes. Now that is not going to kill the crew of an Abrams, but it could stop them in their tracks, and so they return fire.

SHEPPERD: It can disable a tank. And so you have to be careful in an urban environment about where you drive these things. So you don't go with one vehicle; you go with many. And they going into herringbone formations to protect each other, to provide fields of fire in all directions, to block avenues of approach. Then they sort out who is shooting at them and they start shooting.

O'BRIEN: Herringbone. And that increases basically the total field of fire by giving them a pivot point which goes over a wider area, right?

SHEPPERD: Indeed. It enables them to protect each other. They're buttoned up in these vehicles looking through periscopes.

O'BRIEN: All right. It's perilous stuff. I think a lot of people think perhaps to Mogadishu and the problems there. We should point out that none of this armor was there.

SHEPPERD: Indeed. No armor was in Mogadishu. Helicopters only, bad idea.

O'BRIEN: All right. Major General Don Shepperd, always a pleasure. Appreciate your insights.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired April 14, 2003 - 15:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: United States forces still are meeting pockets of resistance in major cities around Iraq. If Basra is any indication of the challenges ahead in securing Baghdad, U.S. troops may still have a long road ahead.
Let's go now on that to Miles O'Brien and our military analyst, retired General Shepperd. They are in Atlanta -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Judy. General Shepperd, yesterday we watched a live firefight in and around the Palestine hotel in Baghdad, which points out some of the difficulties of operating in an urban environment, doesn't it?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: A dangerous environment, difficult environment. Without revealing tactics and techniques, we can tell people some of the ways you do it, but it's difficult no matter how you cut it, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Ultimately, they were able to identify, capture some snipers that were involved in this. Now we're talking about U.S. Marines, but a tremendous amount of fire was exchanged over the course of a fairly long period of time.

SHEPPERD: Right.

O'BRIEN: Let's continue our war college efforts here, war college 101, and show you a scenario we put together to show how Marines or U.S. Army might do a patrol in an urban environment. We put this scene together. You have a squad, actually boots on the pavement, if you will, backed up by armor, typically.

What are they thinking right here, as they're going into a zone like this? There are so many possibilities for targets to come at them, snipers or whatever.

SHEPPERD: What they're thinking is that every window and every doorway and every car they pass is a possible danger. People can shoot at them, people can blow up cars; they can blow up mines. It's a very, very difficult environment, and they're wearing all their protective gear as they do this, Miles.

O'BRIEN: And going into a door like this is a dangerous proposition in and of itself. We probably haven't depicted this entirely accurately. There would probably be a bigger force there and lots of rules about how you go in a door. SHEPPERD: Indeed. And they practice this at the Urban Warfare Training Center in North Carolina as well.

O'BRIEN: Yes. So as we continue on with this, we'll show you how the armor comes into play here. There are limitations to the use of armor in city situations, because it's designed ideally for open desert. But nevertheless, it can be very effective here. We showed -- we've got Abrams and Bradleys in a column here.

SHEPPERD: Indeed. And what these do is they do two things. They provide you mobile firepower, but they also protect the troops as you're going in. In the Bradleys, the troops ride a crew of three and a squad of six people in the Bradleys. And of course, the tanks, all of them have firepower.

In the case of the Bradley, 120-millimeter gun -- I mean in case of the M-1, the 120-millimeter gun. In the case of the Bradleys, a 25-millimeter chain gun, machine guns as well, tow weapons. So they're heavily armed when they go in and they're protecting the troops.

O'BRIEN: All right. What we've depicted is somebody who doesn't like these troops walking through their street.

SHEPPERD: You bet.

O'BRIEN: This is a rocket-propelled grenade. Off it goes. Now that is not going to kill the crew of an Abrams, but it could stop them in their tracks, and so they return fire.

SHEPPERD: It can disable a tank. And so you have to be careful in an urban environment about where you drive these things. So you don't go with one vehicle; you go with many. And they going into herringbone formations to protect each other, to provide fields of fire in all directions, to block avenues of approach. Then they sort out who is shooting at them and they start shooting.

O'BRIEN: Herringbone. And that increases basically the total field of fire by giving them a pivot point which goes over a wider area, right?

SHEPPERD: Indeed. It enables them to protect each other. They're buttoned up in these vehicles looking through periscopes.

O'BRIEN: All right. It's perilous stuff. I think a lot of people think perhaps to Mogadishu and the problems there. We should point out that none of this armor was there.

SHEPPERD: Indeed. No armor was in Mogadishu. Helicopters only, bad idea.

O'BRIEN: All right. Major General Don Shepperd, always a pleasure. Appreciate your insights.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com