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Limited Electricity in Baghdad; Interview With Mamoun Fandy

Aired April 17, 2003 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: After two weeks of blackouts, the lights are back on tonight in parts of Baghdad, and as Miles just reported, another half-brother of Saddam Hussein is now in American custody.
CNN's Nic Robertson is standing by live in Baghdad to give us the latest -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, Barzan Ibrahim Hasan al-Tikriti was picked up by Special Forces near to Baghdad. He was, essentially, Saddam Hussein's money man. In Switzerland for many years, he was nominally, between 1988 and 1998, Iraq's U.N. -- Iraq's representative to the U.N. in Geneva. But what he was doing was looking after the family's money. When Saddam Hussein's elder son, Uday Saddam Hussein, was sent out of Iraq, Barzan was his mentor. He was very much a key figure in the family structure, and his brother, Watban, was picked up just a few days ago by U.S. forces as well in western Iraq.

Now, Barzan was a half-brother of Saddam Hussein. When Saddam Hussein was young, his father died, his mother remarried, and he had these two half-brothers, Barzan and Watban. Both became key and influential figures. Barzan, for a time, 1979 to 1983, the head of intelligence. Watban himself, head of intelligence in Iraq until 1995, until Saddam Hussein put him out of that job.

But, likely, both of these men will be able to provide coalition forces with key and very important intelligence, since their arrest. And certainly, Al-Jazeera, the Arab news network's discovery of what they say is Saddam Hussein's safe house, or one of his safe houses, inside Baghdad, may also provide further clues. Now, Al-Jazeera say that this house, they believe, was the safe location where the Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein, made his last broadcast to the Iraqi people.

They say the building contains a safe room, tables and chairs, very similar to those seen on those televised meetings that we saw during the war, those televised meetings between Saddam Hussein and members of his cabinet, his military commanders. So they believe that this is a very important fine, and APTN, the wires and television news agency, also say that they have seen, in this same building, a presidential seal, a uniform that belonged to the highest rank in Iraq, somebody -- a uniform that they believe belonged to the former president, Saddam Hussein. So this building, also likely to provide coalition forces with much needed intelligence at this time -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Nic, meanwhile, let's talk about the Iraqi people. What is the status with electricity? ROBERTSON: It's still dark over much of Baghdad. The electrical engineers in Iraq, many of them, have gone back to their duties in some of the major power stations around the country.

However, they still have not got the majority of the electricity up and running, at least for the people in Baghdad. I look around and most of the city is still very, very much in darkness, and this is a key demand of the Iraqi people. They want the electricity. They believe when they get the electricity back, that will get the water flowing as well. Now, the electrical engineers who work at the power stations here say that if they have enough people, which they do now, they should be able to get the electricity back up and running in about eight hours.

They have oil-fired electricity stations, but what they say they need to be able to do in those initial stages of getting the system up and running again is have enough electricity, essentially, have a huge power surge to push that amount of electricity into the grid so it is safe for them to start.

They don't know exactly why the system is not running. They believe that they can get the generators going, but it is perhaps some problems with the distribution system. They're also considering bringing down electricity from the northern town of Kirkuk, an oil producing town that has many electricity -- or at least has a large electricity station. They're also looking at getting electricity fed down to Baghdad from there -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's hope they can get it within that eight hours. Our Nic Robertson, live from Baghdad. Thanks, Nic -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Around Iraq, Kyra, in the words of an Army sergeant, it's all terrorist stuff. Acting on a tip, a U.S. soldier raid in a compound that is south of Baghdad, the buildings were packed with explosives, shrapnel, detonators, some of it packaged for use by suicide bombers, apparently. The farmer who led the troops there said the occupants left the compound three days ago.

U.S. troops discovered 50,000 machine guns at a military hospital in Tikrit. The Americans dumped the guns in a pit, and as you can see here, set them ablaze and then covered the pit with dirt. CNN's Ben Wedeman reports the Marines are on the way to try help the Army stabilize Mosul. Tensions running high there still in the former regime stronghold. At least 10 Iraqis died Tuesday and Wednesday in clashes with U.S. troops in Mosul.

PHILLIPS: Well, the seven rescued U.S. prisoners of war are closer to home. They're now being treated at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany. Six of them walked off a U.S. cargo plane at Ramstein Air Base yesterday. The seventh, Army Specialist Shoshana Johnson, had a smile on her face as she was carried off the plane on a stretcher.

Doctors say she may need another round of surgery on the wounds in her feet. Now that Iraq has been liberated, President Bush wants the United Nations to lift economic sanctions, but some diplomats warn getting everyone at the Security Council to agree on that could erupt into a post-war battle.

CNN's senior United Nations correspondent, Richard Roth, now, live from the U.N. -- hi, Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Kyra. Well, it could be round two between President Bush and the Security Council. Before the war, it was get a resolution passed, and get tough on Iraq on weapons of mass destruction.

Now, it's time to end the sanctions, according to President Bush. But not so fast, say other members of the Security Council, such as France and Russia. They fear that the United States is trying to control Iraq and future oil sales, and they would like a -- quote -- "central role for the U.N."

As for weapons inspections, the United States is carrying that out. That annoys some diplomats here. Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector, can only sit and watch. He would like an invitation to send his teams back in, but the U.S. is not likely to do that, preferring its own troops, which have been on the ground in places like Karbala and other places, and a future wave of scientists to follow to check on any readings or findings. Dr. Blix says that U.N. weapons inspectors would only enhance United States' efforts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: I have not seen any -- any indication that the U.S. would be ready to accept international verification again, though it is true that the credibility of any finds, I think, would be much better with international inspection. I think we had credibility. I know that Washington was disappointed that we did not present evidence that would have suited their argument at a given time, but I think, if anything that increased our credibility in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Dr. Blix will appear before the Security Council next Tuesday, and that may be the first public day where you will see the differences regarding the weapons inspections and the council. Everyone wants to know, What is the role for these inspectors? Because of various Security Council resolutions, it's up to them to tell the council that Iraq has complied on weapons of mass destruction in order to get the sanctions that President Bush wants lifted.

Also divisive in the Security Council, potentially, Syria, which is a member of the Security Council over the last two years. The United States has been saying that Syria may be harboring fugitives from Iraq, and also possessing some types of weapons of mass destruction. Syria says this is all a plot that has been launched by Israel. Syria's proposed resolution: declaring the Mideast a weapons-free zone has not really gone much distance at the Security Council, but it remains up for discussion. But the U.S. has given indications now is not the time for such a resolution -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Richard Roth, live at the U.N., thank you -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Kyra, let's turn our attention further and deeper into Syria. There's a growing body of evidence that the country has become the destination of choice for Saddam Hussein's inner circle.

That has Washington hopping mad. Secretary of State Colin Powell says he will soon travel to Damascus to try to resolve differences with the Syrian leader, Bashar Assad, which is a diplomatic way of saying he'll be reading him the riot act.

Joining us now, Mamoun Fandy, a Middle East scholar and a syndicated columnist all throughout the Arab world. Professor Fandy, good to have you with us.

MAMOUN FANDY, MIDDLE EAST SCHOLAR: Thank you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Oh, to be a fly on the wall. What do you think will go on as Colin Powell sits down with President Assad?

FANDY: I think the United States has a very clear game in the region right now. For one, we need a political cover for what's happening in Iraq, and Syria has to play along in terms of the peace process, and move along to give that larger political cover to defuse the tension in the Middle East. So I think, probably, Colin Powell will tell the Syrians that they have to play along, they are the last holdout as far as the peace process is concerned, and they have to close their borders. And I think it's going to be, as you said, is going to basically read him, basic U.S. demands and ultimatums and they have to deliver.

O'BRIEN: I assume the demands and ultimatums will be deliver the loyalists to the Saddam Hussein regime. Do you think Assad will do that, if not publicly, at least quietly, privately somehow?

FANDY: I think the Syrian record shows that they are really good at playing under the table, and I think the Syrians, who were very cooperative on the war on terrorism early on and they provided the U.S. with tremendous intelligence as far as al Qaeda is concerned.

Now, I think there is also -- there is no love lost between the Baath Party of Iraq and the Baath Party of Syria. So I think the Syrians, if they have some of -- of supporters of Saddam Hussein, or some of the leadership, certainly they will hand them out. But they will hand them out for a price as well.

O'BRIEN: All right. Give us a quick back story on the parting of the Baath waters, if you will. How did the two Baath Parties become rivals in the two countries?

FANDY: Well, it was really way back, just like -- with the coming of Saddam Hussein, there was a break between the two Baath Parties, and the Syrians consider themselves the real Baath Party, and the Iraqi regime was a renegade. And since then, they do not have diplomatic relations with Iraq until today.

So in a way, I think -- still, the Syrians really were the ultimate enemy of Saddam Hussein in the region for a long, long time. I'm very surprised that they basically decided to support Saddam Hussein at the end. But that was based on their misreading of the whole war. They thought Saddam Hussein can hold out for a while, but he couldn't. And they thought they would be a broker between the U.S. and Saddam Hussein if the war continued.

O'BRIEN: So they -- they wanted to be right there in the middle for the end game. Unfortunately, the end game came up on them a little quicker than was expected.

FANDY: I think it came on them crashing, and I think they really have to adjust very quickly, because this administration is not interested in details, and all of that. They are interested in the big story, the political cover in the region, as well as handing out the supporters of Saddam Hussein in Syria.

O'BRIEN: Well, I suppose it's proof that Bashar Assad is not quite his father's son just yet, as far as timing and canny political maneuvering. I'm just curious, as time goes forward here, will -- well, what's next then, what kind of levers does the U.S. have on Syria? Obviously this oil pipeline. How many buttons can they push?

FANDY: There are many buttons that the United States can push. I mean, first of all, I think there is the Lebanese issue, and the linkage between Hezbollah and Syria. And as you said, the economic component of closing that pipeline is tremendous pressure. The United States has the issue of WMD, chemical and biological weapons on Syria. I think Syria is on the ropes, and unless they adjust very quickly, probably the price is going to be very high for the young leader of Syria, and probably we'll see major changes in Syria as a result of this. The indicators are very clear. I think next door, Lebanon, already the government of Lebanon, the prime minister of Lebanon resigned, and a new government is being formed, to really adjust to these new changes in the region.

O'BRIEN: All right. We'll have to talk about Lebanon and the Syrian occupation of that country some other time, unfortunately. Always a pleasure to talk to you, Mamoun Fandy...

FANDY: Great pleasure, Miles.

O'BRIEN: ... Middle East scholar, professor at Georgetown University, and a man who writes extensively on this subject, thanks very much for being with us, as always.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Fandy>


Aired April 17, 2003 - 13:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: After two weeks of blackouts, the lights are back on tonight in parts of Baghdad, and as Miles just reported, another half-brother of Saddam Hussein is now in American custody.
CNN's Nic Robertson is standing by live in Baghdad to give us the latest -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kyra, Barzan Ibrahim Hasan al-Tikriti was picked up by Special Forces near to Baghdad. He was, essentially, Saddam Hussein's money man. In Switzerland for many years, he was nominally, between 1988 and 1998, Iraq's U.N. -- Iraq's representative to the U.N. in Geneva. But what he was doing was looking after the family's money. When Saddam Hussein's elder son, Uday Saddam Hussein, was sent out of Iraq, Barzan was his mentor. He was very much a key figure in the family structure, and his brother, Watban, was picked up just a few days ago by U.S. forces as well in western Iraq.

Now, Barzan was a half-brother of Saddam Hussein. When Saddam Hussein was young, his father died, his mother remarried, and he had these two half-brothers, Barzan and Watban. Both became key and influential figures. Barzan, for a time, 1979 to 1983, the head of intelligence. Watban himself, head of intelligence in Iraq until 1995, until Saddam Hussein put him out of that job.

But, likely, both of these men will be able to provide coalition forces with key and very important intelligence, since their arrest. And certainly, Al-Jazeera, the Arab news network's discovery of what they say is Saddam Hussein's safe house, or one of his safe houses, inside Baghdad, may also provide further clues. Now, Al-Jazeera say that this house, they believe, was the safe location where the Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein, made his last broadcast to the Iraqi people.

They say the building contains a safe room, tables and chairs, very similar to those seen on those televised meetings that we saw during the war, those televised meetings between Saddam Hussein and members of his cabinet, his military commanders. So they believe that this is a very important fine, and APTN, the wires and television news agency, also say that they have seen, in this same building, a presidential seal, a uniform that belonged to the highest rank in Iraq, somebody -- a uniform that they believe belonged to the former president, Saddam Hussein. So this building, also likely to provide coalition forces with much needed intelligence at this time -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Nic, meanwhile, let's talk about the Iraqi people. What is the status with electricity? ROBERTSON: It's still dark over much of Baghdad. The electrical engineers in Iraq, many of them, have gone back to their duties in some of the major power stations around the country.

However, they still have not got the majority of the electricity up and running, at least for the people in Baghdad. I look around and most of the city is still very, very much in darkness, and this is a key demand of the Iraqi people. They want the electricity. They believe when they get the electricity back, that will get the water flowing as well. Now, the electrical engineers who work at the power stations here say that if they have enough people, which they do now, they should be able to get the electricity back up and running in about eight hours.

They have oil-fired electricity stations, but what they say they need to be able to do in those initial stages of getting the system up and running again is have enough electricity, essentially, have a huge power surge to push that amount of electricity into the grid so it is safe for them to start.

They don't know exactly why the system is not running. They believe that they can get the generators going, but it is perhaps some problems with the distribution system. They're also considering bringing down electricity from the northern town of Kirkuk, an oil producing town that has many electricity -- or at least has a large electricity station. They're also looking at getting electricity fed down to Baghdad from there -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's hope they can get it within that eight hours. Our Nic Robertson, live from Baghdad. Thanks, Nic -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Around Iraq, Kyra, in the words of an Army sergeant, it's all terrorist stuff. Acting on a tip, a U.S. soldier raid in a compound that is south of Baghdad, the buildings were packed with explosives, shrapnel, detonators, some of it packaged for use by suicide bombers, apparently. The farmer who led the troops there said the occupants left the compound three days ago.

U.S. troops discovered 50,000 machine guns at a military hospital in Tikrit. The Americans dumped the guns in a pit, and as you can see here, set them ablaze and then covered the pit with dirt. CNN's Ben Wedeman reports the Marines are on the way to try help the Army stabilize Mosul. Tensions running high there still in the former regime stronghold. At least 10 Iraqis died Tuesday and Wednesday in clashes with U.S. troops in Mosul.

PHILLIPS: Well, the seven rescued U.S. prisoners of war are closer to home. They're now being treated at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany. Six of them walked off a U.S. cargo plane at Ramstein Air Base yesterday. The seventh, Army Specialist Shoshana Johnson, had a smile on her face as she was carried off the plane on a stretcher.

Doctors say she may need another round of surgery on the wounds in her feet. Now that Iraq has been liberated, President Bush wants the United Nations to lift economic sanctions, but some diplomats warn getting everyone at the Security Council to agree on that could erupt into a post-war battle.

CNN's senior United Nations correspondent, Richard Roth, now, live from the U.N. -- hi, Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Kyra. Well, it could be round two between President Bush and the Security Council. Before the war, it was get a resolution passed, and get tough on Iraq on weapons of mass destruction.

Now, it's time to end the sanctions, according to President Bush. But not so fast, say other members of the Security Council, such as France and Russia. They fear that the United States is trying to control Iraq and future oil sales, and they would like a -- quote -- "central role for the U.N."

As for weapons inspections, the United States is carrying that out. That annoys some diplomats here. Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector, can only sit and watch. He would like an invitation to send his teams back in, but the U.S. is not likely to do that, preferring its own troops, which have been on the ground in places like Karbala and other places, and a future wave of scientists to follow to check on any readings or findings. Dr. Blix says that U.N. weapons inspectors would only enhance United States' efforts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: I have not seen any -- any indication that the U.S. would be ready to accept international verification again, though it is true that the credibility of any finds, I think, would be much better with international inspection. I think we had credibility. I know that Washington was disappointed that we did not present evidence that would have suited their argument at a given time, but I think, if anything that increased our credibility in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Dr. Blix will appear before the Security Council next Tuesday, and that may be the first public day where you will see the differences regarding the weapons inspections and the council. Everyone wants to know, What is the role for these inspectors? Because of various Security Council resolutions, it's up to them to tell the council that Iraq has complied on weapons of mass destruction in order to get the sanctions that President Bush wants lifted.

Also divisive in the Security Council, potentially, Syria, which is a member of the Security Council over the last two years. The United States has been saying that Syria may be harboring fugitives from Iraq, and also possessing some types of weapons of mass destruction. Syria says this is all a plot that has been launched by Israel. Syria's proposed resolution: declaring the Mideast a weapons-free zone has not really gone much distance at the Security Council, but it remains up for discussion. But the U.S. has given indications now is not the time for such a resolution -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Richard Roth, live at the U.N., thank you -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Kyra, let's turn our attention further and deeper into Syria. There's a growing body of evidence that the country has become the destination of choice for Saddam Hussein's inner circle.

That has Washington hopping mad. Secretary of State Colin Powell says he will soon travel to Damascus to try to resolve differences with the Syrian leader, Bashar Assad, which is a diplomatic way of saying he'll be reading him the riot act.

Joining us now, Mamoun Fandy, a Middle East scholar and a syndicated columnist all throughout the Arab world. Professor Fandy, good to have you with us.

MAMOUN FANDY, MIDDLE EAST SCHOLAR: Thank you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Oh, to be a fly on the wall. What do you think will go on as Colin Powell sits down with President Assad?

FANDY: I think the United States has a very clear game in the region right now. For one, we need a political cover for what's happening in Iraq, and Syria has to play along in terms of the peace process, and move along to give that larger political cover to defuse the tension in the Middle East. So I think, probably, Colin Powell will tell the Syrians that they have to play along, they are the last holdout as far as the peace process is concerned, and they have to close their borders. And I think it's going to be, as you said, is going to basically read him, basic U.S. demands and ultimatums and they have to deliver.

O'BRIEN: I assume the demands and ultimatums will be deliver the loyalists to the Saddam Hussein regime. Do you think Assad will do that, if not publicly, at least quietly, privately somehow?

FANDY: I think the Syrian record shows that they are really good at playing under the table, and I think the Syrians, who were very cooperative on the war on terrorism early on and they provided the U.S. with tremendous intelligence as far as al Qaeda is concerned.

Now, I think there is also -- there is no love lost between the Baath Party of Iraq and the Baath Party of Syria. So I think the Syrians, if they have some of -- of supporters of Saddam Hussein, or some of the leadership, certainly they will hand them out. But they will hand them out for a price as well.

O'BRIEN: All right. Give us a quick back story on the parting of the Baath waters, if you will. How did the two Baath Parties become rivals in the two countries?

FANDY: Well, it was really way back, just like -- with the coming of Saddam Hussein, there was a break between the two Baath Parties, and the Syrians consider themselves the real Baath Party, and the Iraqi regime was a renegade. And since then, they do not have diplomatic relations with Iraq until today.

So in a way, I think -- still, the Syrians really were the ultimate enemy of Saddam Hussein in the region for a long, long time. I'm very surprised that they basically decided to support Saddam Hussein at the end. But that was based on their misreading of the whole war. They thought Saddam Hussein can hold out for a while, but he couldn't. And they thought they would be a broker between the U.S. and Saddam Hussein if the war continued.

O'BRIEN: So they -- they wanted to be right there in the middle for the end game. Unfortunately, the end game came up on them a little quicker than was expected.

FANDY: I think it came on them crashing, and I think they really have to adjust very quickly, because this administration is not interested in details, and all of that. They are interested in the big story, the political cover in the region, as well as handing out the supporters of Saddam Hussein in Syria.

O'BRIEN: Well, I suppose it's proof that Bashar Assad is not quite his father's son just yet, as far as timing and canny political maneuvering. I'm just curious, as time goes forward here, will -- well, what's next then, what kind of levers does the U.S. have on Syria? Obviously this oil pipeline. How many buttons can they push?

FANDY: There are many buttons that the United States can push. I mean, first of all, I think there is the Lebanese issue, and the linkage between Hezbollah and Syria. And as you said, the economic component of closing that pipeline is tremendous pressure. The United States has the issue of WMD, chemical and biological weapons on Syria. I think Syria is on the ropes, and unless they adjust very quickly, probably the price is going to be very high for the young leader of Syria, and probably we'll see major changes in Syria as a result of this. The indicators are very clear. I think next door, Lebanon, already the government of Lebanon, the prime minister of Lebanon resigned, and a new government is being formed, to really adjust to these new changes in the region.

O'BRIEN: All right. We'll have to talk about Lebanon and the Syrian occupation of that country some other time, unfortunately. Always a pleasure to talk to you, Mamoun Fandy...

FANDY: Great pleasure, Miles.

O'BRIEN: ... Middle East scholar, professor at Georgetown University, and a man who writes extensively on this subject, thanks very much for being with us, as always.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Fandy>