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Iraqi Community in Michigan Divided

Aired April 28, 2003 - 14:09   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: And joining me now with his reaction to the president's speech is Dr. James Zogby -- the founder and president of the Arab American Institute.
Hello to you, sir. Thanks for being with us today.

JAMES ZOGBY, PRESIDENT, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Thank you.

COLLINS: Just want to know your overall reaction to the tone of the speech at this point.

ZOGBY: Well, it was a victory speech, and there were those in the audience who received it well. But we'll see how it plays out in the weeks and months to come. In fact, many of the Iraqi -- the Iraqi community in Michigan is divided into two parts, not equal.

There is a very recent community, actually, within the last ten years that is Shia Muslim -- that came after the 1991 Gulf War. But the much larger base of the community is a long-term settled communuity of Chaldeans -- 70 to 80,000 Chaldean Christians. I think that these two communities are very affected by what happens in Iraq and basically we'll see, as the situation develops in Basra, whether or not these factional leaders will submit their will to the Iraqi -- I'm sorry -- the American military and whether the Christian community is protected. They will be affected. The communities in Michigan will be affected by how their people fare in Iraq.

COLLINS: What about a very bold and huge statement, which we've been hearing for quite some time, coming out of President Bush's mouth? And that is that Iraq must be democratic.

What do you think about that? Is that true?

Well, you know, one would like to see Iraq democratic. But I think we really need to understand the social conditions in Iraq may not allow for a multi-party, free, open, democratic society.

It's not a question of Islam, as some have said. It's really a question of how far Iraq has advanced in terms of its social and cultural development, especially in parts of the south -- the tribal differences that exist there and the differences between the Kurds and their aspirations and the Shia and the south and their aspirations.

I think we'll have to see this play out. But I think some of the religious leaders in the country have their own aspirations. And I'm not quite sure they're going to submit to a democracy. COLLINS: Right, Dr. Zogby. If not democratic, then what?

ZOGBY: Well, we don't know. And I think that's what we're going to see play out. That's why the president's words are going to be measured by performance.

Some of these factional religious leaders want their own way. And in the north, you have age-old rivalries between the Kurds and the Arabs that are also playing out. We're going to have to see how that works. Then the Christian community that was actually protected by the regime is now feeling vulnerable and exposed.

Democracy would be a wonderful system if it could be. I'm just not quite sure how ready the country is going to be for it, and we'll have to see how it plays out.

COLLINS: What are your thoughts on the increasing evidence of human rights violations and also the killings by Saddam Hussein's regime? There was actually an article in "The New York Times" today, talking some more about that.

ZOGBY: Listen, back when The United States was supporting this regime, I was opposing it. In the 1970s and '80s, I would get invited to go to Iraq to a conference and wouldn't go because it was the bloodiest and nastiest regime.

I used to get in trouble here in Washington because when the America was supporting it against Iran, I said pox on both their houses and we needed an arms embargo both ways.

When the last Republican administrations were sending supplies to that country, I thought it was the wrong thing to do. So I'm not surprised by the brutality of this dictator. We've known it all along. But we've had a double standard. When we liked the regime, we kept a blind eye to the violations. When we didn't like the regime, all of a sudden we started talking about them.

We need to have a more consistent approach to human rights everywhere in the world. Now, only now, we're beginning to talk about Iraqi human rights violations, but people in the Arab world have known about it all their lives.

COLLINS: All right. Very good. Dr. James Zogby, founder and president of the Arab-American Institute, thanks for your insight today.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired April 28, 2003 - 14:09   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: And joining me now with his reaction to the president's speech is Dr. James Zogby -- the founder and president of the Arab American Institute.
Hello to you, sir. Thanks for being with us today.

JAMES ZOGBY, PRESIDENT, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Thank you.

COLLINS: Just want to know your overall reaction to the tone of the speech at this point.

ZOGBY: Well, it was a victory speech, and there were those in the audience who received it well. But we'll see how it plays out in the weeks and months to come. In fact, many of the Iraqi -- the Iraqi community in Michigan is divided into two parts, not equal.

There is a very recent community, actually, within the last ten years that is Shia Muslim -- that came after the 1991 Gulf War. But the much larger base of the community is a long-term settled communuity of Chaldeans -- 70 to 80,000 Chaldean Christians. I think that these two communities are very affected by what happens in Iraq and basically we'll see, as the situation develops in Basra, whether or not these factional leaders will submit their will to the Iraqi -- I'm sorry -- the American military and whether the Christian community is protected. They will be affected. The communities in Michigan will be affected by how their people fare in Iraq.

COLLINS: What about a very bold and huge statement, which we've been hearing for quite some time, coming out of President Bush's mouth? And that is that Iraq must be democratic.

What do you think about that? Is that true?

Well, you know, one would like to see Iraq democratic. But I think we really need to understand the social conditions in Iraq may not allow for a multi-party, free, open, democratic society.

It's not a question of Islam, as some have said. It's really a question of how far Iraq has advanced in terms of its social and cultural development, especially in parts of the south -- the tribal differences that exist there and the differences between the Kurds and their aspirations and the Shia and the south and their aspirations.

I think we'll have to see this play out. But I think some of the religious leaders in the country have their own aspirations. And I'm not quite sure they're going to submit to a democracy. COLLINS: Right, Dr. Zogby. If not democratic, then what?

ZOGBY: Well, we don't know. And I think that's what we're going to see play out. That's why the president's words are going to be measured by performance.

Some of these factional religious leaders want their own way. And in the north, you have age-old rivalries between the Kurds and the Arabs that are also playing out. We're going to have to see how that works. Then the Christian community that was actually protected by the regime is now feeling vulnerable and exposed.

Democracy would be a wonderful system if it could be. I'm just not quite sure how ready the country is going to be for it, and we'll have to see how it plays out.

COLLINS: What are your thoughts on the increasing evidence of human rights violations and also the killings by Saddam Hussein's regime? There was actually an article in "The New York Times" today, talking some more about that.

ZOGBY: Listen, back when The United States was supporting this regime, I was opposing it. In the 1970s and '80s, I would get invited to go to Iraq to a conference and wouldn't go because it was the bloodiest and nastiest regime.

I used to get in trouble here in Washington because when the America was supporting it against Iran, I said pox on both their houses and we needed an arms embargo both ways.

When the last Republican administrations were sending supplies to that country, I thought it was the wrong thing to do. So I'm not surprised by the brutality of this dictator. We've known it all along. But we've had a double standard. When we liked the regime, we kept a blind eye to the violations. When we didn't like the regime, all of a sudden we started talking about them.

We need to have a more consistent approach to human rights everywhere in the world. Now, only now, we're beginning to talk about Iraqi human rights violations, but people in the Arab world have known about it all their lives.

COLLINS: All right. Very good. Dr. James Zogby, founder and president of the Arab-American Institute, thanks for your insight today.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com