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Analysis With Michael Greenberger, Phil Anderson
Aired May 12, 2003 - 15:06 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Two guests join us now to debate how far the U.S. has come in the war on terror and the possible risks of proclaiming progress.
Michael Greenberger is the director of the Center for Health and Homeland Security at the University of Maryland and Phil Anderson is director of the Homeland Security Initiative at the Center for International and Strategic Studies.
To you first, Mr. Greenberger. It was not just President Bush who said we turned the tide on terror. FBI Director Robert Mueller just said a few days ago -- in effect, he said that we've seen the turning of the tide. Is he right? Is the president correct?
MICHAEL GREENBERGER, DIR., CENTER FOR HEALTH AND HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, I hate to use a Clintonian phrase, but it depends what the meaning of turning the tide is. I think if turning the tide means we're on a downhill slope, we've certainly not turned the tide. If turning the tide means we've made progress, I think that's a fair assessment.
But anybody, I think, familiar with the terrorist threats to the country realizes that something very dangerous can happen anywhere at any time. Indeed, that whole purpose of the exercise you've just shown in Seattle and later in Washington is a demonstration -- later in Chicago is a demonstration that people are -- Congress is and people who are responsible for the safety of the homeland believe there is a real threat out there that can come from anyplace at any time. And it's certainly no time for us to put our guard down.
WOODRUFF: Phil Anderson, does -- when we hear the president and the FBI director saying the tide has turned, and yet we know exercises like this are still going on, where do you come down?
PHIL ANDERSON, CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL AND STRATEGIC STUDIES: Well, I don't think that the threat has been eliminated. Clearly, it hasn't been eliminated, that al Qaeda retains enormous capability to do is enormous harm. But I think it is safe to say at this point that the threat has been diminished. And it has been diminished significantly over the past 20 months. I think that in the ongoing war on terrorism, we -- the nation continues to doggedly pursue, to aggressively pursue terrorists where they live, where they train where they plan these kinds of things, and I think that if for no other reason than the fact that we haven't been attacked in 20 months, I think that we have been, at least, marginally successful in preventing terrorist attacks, at least in the United States. Certainly there have been things....
WOODRUFF: Which...
ANDERSON: Go ahead. I'm sorry.
WOODRUFF: I was just going to say -- ask Mr. Greenberger, would he acknowledge that, that we -- that there's been some success here?
GREENBERGER: I'd say there's been some success. But let's remember when we say nothing's happened in the last 20 months, it was from 1995 when the Oklahoma City bombing, the second worst terrorist attack the United States has experienced until 2001, six years later, before something happens, my personal view is that it is very, very dangerous just weeks after we've let the second highest alert, orange alert, go down to let down our guard and to begin patting ourselves on the back.
It's not just al Qaeda. There are many other terrorist groups around the world who wish us ill. And finally, I would say...
WOODRUFF: Well, let me -- let me just interrupt you there and pick up on that point.
Phil Anderson, what about this point? We've not only hearing it from Mr. Greenberger, but you've got Democratic presidential candidate Senator Bob Graham saying it's the A-team the United States has not gone after yet, Hezbollah and these other terrorist groups in Syria and Lebanon, that the U.S. is holding back and has not gone to the source.
ANDERSON: Well, I agree. I happen to agree with the Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet when he says that the gravest threat to the United States of America remains al Qaeda.
Now, certainly, there are other terrorist organizations that seek to attain the ability to have global reach and they're working very aggressively toward that end. But the key point here is that -- and the standard argument -- is that terrorists are on a standard 18 to 24-month or longer planning cycle, but we have to remember that this organization, al Qaeda in particular, is led by educated people who are -- and it's a militarized organization, and it would be, to me, it would be ridiculous to believe that they would not have exploited our vulnerabilities at the opportune time.
And you have to ask yourself, when were we most vulnerable? And I think that that was early last year, probably January through April or May, when the economy was failing and there were a number of other problems.
WOODRUFF: One quick final with you, Mr. Greenberger. When the president -- when the White House says that by defeating Saddam Hussein they've made a major step forward in the war on terror, and yet there's been no link proven yet between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda, where do you come down?
GREENBERGER: Well, it's not only no link proven, but if we're making an assessment that we've turned the tide based on our intelligence capabilities, we've sure looked pretty silly in Iraq up to now. Every intelligence lead that we've had as to where weapons of mass destruction have come from have come up dry.
I do not think this country is in any shape to be saying that we substantially eliminated this problem. We're searching now, in the force of Frederick, Maryland for probably a domestic terrorist who put the anthrax scare on us with just a thimble full of anthrax. I think it's dangerous to tell the American people this war is on the way over.
WOODRUFF: Michael Greenberger, Phil Anderson, we appreciate both of you talking to us this afternoon. Thank you very much. We appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 12, 2003 - 15:06 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Two guests join us now to debate how far the U.S. has come in the war on terror and the possible risks of proclaiming progress.
Michael Greenberger is the director of the Center for Health and Homeland Security at the University of Maryland and Phil Anderson is director of the Homeland Security Initiative at the Center for International and Strategic Studies.
To you first, Mr. Greenberger. It was not just President Bush who said we turned the tide on terror. FBI Director Robert Mueller just said a few days ago -- in effect, he said that we've seen the turning of the tide. Is he right? Is the president correct?
MICHAEL GREENBERGER, DIR., CENTER FOR HEALTH AND HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, I hate to use a Clintonian phrase, but it depends what the meaning of turning the tide is. I think if turning the tide means we're on a downhill slope, we've certainly not turned the tide. If turning the tide means we've made progress, I think that's a fair assessment.
But anybody, I think, familiar with the terrorist threats to the country realizes that something very dangerous can happen anywhere at any time. Indeed, that whole purpose of the exercise you've just shown in Seattle and later in Washington is a demonstration -- later in Chicago is a demonstration that people are -- Congress is and people who are responsible for the safety of the homeland believe there is a real threat out there that can come from anyplace at any time. And it's certainly no time for us to put our guard down.
WOODRUFF: Phil Anderson, does -- when we hear the president and the FBI director saying the tide has turned, and yet we know exercises like this are still going on, where do you come down?
PHIL ANDERSON, CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL AND STRATEGIC STUDIES: Well, I don't think that the threat has been eliminated. Clearly, it hasn't been eliminated, that al Qaeda retains enormous capability to do is enormous harm. But I think it is safe to say at this point that the threat has been diminished. And it has been diminished significantly over the past 20 months. I think that in the ongoing war on terrorism, we -- the nation continues to doggedly pursue, to aggressively pursue terrorists where they live, where they train where they plan these kinds of things, and I think that if for no other reason than the fact that we haven't been attacked in 20 months, I think that we have been, at least, marginally successful in preventing terrorist attacks, at least in the United States. Certainly there have been things....
WOODRUFF: Which...
ANDERSON: Go ahead. I'm sorry.
WOODRUFF: I was just going to say -- ask Mr. Greenberger, would he acknowledge that, that we -- that there's been some success here?
GREENBERGER: I'd say there's been some success. But let's remember when we say nothing's happened in the last 20 months, it was from 1995 when the Oklahoma City bombing, the second worst terrorist attack the United States has experienced until 2001, six years later, before something happens, my personal view is that it is very, very dangerous just weeks after we've let the second highest alert, orange alert, go down to let down our guard and to begin patting ourselves on the back.
It's not just al Qaeda. There are many other terrorist groups around the world who wish us ill. And finally, I would say...
WOODRUFF: Well, let me -- let me just interrupt you there and pick up on that point.
Phil Anderson, what about this point? We've not only hearing it from Mr. Greenberger, but you've got Democratic presidential candidate Senator Bob Graham saying it's the A-team the United States has not gone after yet, Hezbollah and these other terrorist groups in Syria and Lebanon, that the U.S. is holding back and has not gone to the source.
ANDERSON: Well, I agree. I happen to agree with the Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet when he says that the gravest threat to the United States of America remains al Qaeda.
Now, certainly, there are other terrorist organizations that seek to attain the ability to have global reach and they're working very aggressively toward that end. But the key point here is that -- and the standard argument -- is that terrorists are on a standard 18 to 24-month or longer planning cycle, but we have to remember that this organization, al Qaeda in particular, is led by educated people who are -- and it's a militarized organization, and it would be, to me, it would be ridiculous to believe that they would not have exploited our vulnerabilities at the opportune time.
And you have to ask yourself, when were we most vulnerable? And I think that that was early last year, probably January through April or May, when the economy was failing and there were a number of other problems.
WOODRUFF: One quick final with you, Mr. Greenberger. When the president -- when the White House says that by defeating Saddam Hussein they've made a major step forward in the war on terror, and yet there's been no link proven yet between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda, where do you come down?
GREENBERGER: Well, it's not only no link proven, but if we're making an assessment that we've turned the tide based on our intelligence capabilities, we've sure looked pretty silly in Iraq up to now. Every intelligence lead that we've had as to where weapons of mass destruction have come from have come up dry.
I do not think this country is in any shape to be saying that we substantially eliminated this problem. We're searching now, in the force of Frederick, Maryland for probably a domestic terrorist who put the anthrax scare on us with just a thimble full of anthrax. I think it's dangerous to tell the American people this war is on the way over.
WOODRUFF: Michael Greenberger, Phil Anderson, we appreciate both of you talking to us this afternoon. Thank you very much. We appreciate it.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
