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Ayatollah Desires Democracy in Iraq, Departure of U.S. Troops
Aired May 13, 2003 - 14:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: After 23 years in exile, Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim has come home, and he has immediately picked up where he left off as the leader of Iraq's largest Shiite Muslim group. And in many ways, the Bush administration and the ayatollah are worlds apart.
Our Jane Arraf sat down with the Ayatollah for an interview you'll see only here on CNN. She joins us now to talk about that and more -- Jane.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, it is a really significant political force that has come back, as well as a spiritual leader, the Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al Hakim. And in the interview, what we're really trying to get is a sense of what vision he has for this country.
Now, he came back to an amazing reception. Twenty-three years in exile in Iran and he came back yesterday to his birthplace in Najaf, which happens to be one of the holiest sites in the world to Shi'a Muslims all over the world. People were absolutely overjoyed to hear him and to hear his voice.
The speech he gave, though, from that mosque was perhaps a little more toned down than one would have expected, and in the interview he also declined to say what he has said in the past, that American troops must leave, but he did say it would not be in the American interest if the troops stayed in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMED BAQIR AL-HAKIM, RELIGIOUS LEADER (through translator): I believe that it is in the best interest of the U.S. and the Iraqi people, especially concerning the relationship between the two, for the troops to leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARRAF: Now, as for the future of Iraq, the future that he sees, he says he would like to see a democratic country, but one that's governed in many respects by Islamic law.
Now, that's going to be a little bit tricky to pull off, and it really remains to be seen how exactly he is going to do this, tread that fine line between the support he has, and his organization, we have to say, is called the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq -- and still maintain that balance between -- not totally alienating himself from the American and British powers who are here, running this company, essentially, at the moment -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Jane, does the ayatollah feel that the war against Iraq was justified?
ARRAF: That's a really good question. It sort of touches on that whole question as to whether a lot of political figures and a lot of ordinary people who first said this war was not justified have changed their minds. Clearly, he is benefiting from it.
Now, in the speech from the mosque, he did say that America had propped up Saddam Hussein. That was the reason that Saddam was able to suppress the Shi'as for so long. But clearly, he would not be coming back, he would not be able to address these followers, he wouldn't have followers here to support him had it not been for that war. So that is a tricky question that no one really is able to address very easily.
But certainly, he is able to benefit from the fact that the United States is promising a democracy, and if you take that to its logical conclusion, that will mean that the Shi'as, who have been ignored for so long, will have considerable political power in this country -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: What about the French? The ayatollah has made comments about the French. Did you talk about that at all?
ARRAF: We talked about Iran. There is a significant feeling that his arrival here, having been sheltered by Iran for the past 23 years, would actually give Iran more of a role here.
Now, he said that he would like to treat Iran the same way as he presumably would like to treat other countries, including France, which is to maintain good relations with all of those countries.
Now, this has opened up -- the war and the aftermath has, again, opened up a whole fascinating and difficult can of worms here. This country, with its oil wealth and its huge potential, has always been fought over by other countries, by the United States, now, perhaps, by Britain in the past, by France in the past.
And now we are seeing a bit of resurgence of all of that. So that's another thing that's really going to have to be worked out, exactly what countries have power in what ways over Iraq's future -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Finally, my final question, Jane, when talking about a diplomatic type of government -- or a democratic type of government, rather, calling for an Islamic state without the exclusion of others, how does the ayatollah plan to avoid any type of social explosion? It's such a sensitive time right now among all the different religious factions.
ARRAF: That's a really interesting question, because he, in fact, used those very words, "social explosion." He said that there was a power vacuum here, and if that weren't remedied, that there would, in fact, be exactly that social explosion. Now, as to how he would prevent that, the major feeling not just among the ayatollah, but other political leaders and other ordinary people as well is things have to happen faster. There has to be a political system in place. There has to be more security, and that's really what they're looking at.
All of those very basic things have to be built from the ground up, but there has been a power vacuum, as he puts it, and many people feel that on the ground, and as soon as that gets addressed, then that will certainly help stabilize this country, but it has to be done quickly, many people feel -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Our Jane Arraf, exclusive interview with Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim. Great work, Jane. Thank you so much.
ARRAF: Thanks, Kyra.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Troops>
Aired May 13, 2003 - 14:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: After 23 years in exile, Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim has come home, and he has immediately picked up where he left off as the leader of Iraq's largest Shiite Muslim group. And in many ways, the Bush administration and the ayatollah are worlds apart.
Our Jane Arraf sat down with the Ayatollah for an interview you'll see only here on CNN. She joins us now to talk about that and more -- Jane.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kyra, it is a really significant political force that has come back, as well as a spiritual leader, the Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al Hakim. And in the interview, what we're really trying to get is a sense of what vision he has for this country.
Now, he came back to an amazing reception. Twenty-three years in exile in Iran and he came back yesterday to his birthplace in Najaf, which happens to be one of the holiest sites in the world to Shi'a Muslims all over the world. People were absolutely overjoyed to hear him and to hear his voice.
The speech he gave, though, from that mosque was perhaps a little more toned down than one would have expected, and in the interview he also declined to say what he has said in the past, that American troops must leave, but he did say it would not be in the American interest if the troops stayed in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMED BAQIR AL-HAKIM, RELIGIOUS LEADER (through translator): I believe that it is in the best interest of the U.S. and the Iraqi people, especially concerning the relationship between the two, for the troops to leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARRAF: Now, as for the future of Iraq, the future that he sees, he says he would like to see a democratic country, but one that's governed in many respects by Islamic law.
Now, that's going to be a little bit tricky to pull off, and it really remains to be seen how exactly he is going to do this, tread that fine line between the support he has, and his organization, we have to say, is called the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq -- and still maintain that balance between -- not totally alienating himself from the American and British powers who are here, running this company, essentially, at the moment -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Jane, does the ayatollah feel that the war against Iraq was justified?
ARRAF: That's a really good question. It sort of touches on that whole question as to whether a lot of political figures and a lot of ordinary people who first said this war was not justified have changed their minds. Clearly, he is benefiting from it.
Now, in the speech from the mosque, he did say that America had propped up Saddam Hussein. That was the reason that Saddam was able to suppress the Shi'as for so long. But clearly, he would not be coming back, he would not be able to address these followers, he wouldn't have followers here to support him had it not been for that war. So that is a tricky question that no one really is able to address very easily.
But certainly, he is able to benefit from the fact that the United States is promising a democracy, and if you take that to its logical conclusion, that will mean that the Shi'as, who have been ignored for so long, will have considerable political power in this country -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: What about the French? The ayatollah has made comments about the French. Did you talk about that at all?
ARRAF: We talked about Iran. There is a significant feeling that his arrival here, having been sheltered by Iran for the past 23 years, would actually give Iran more of a role here.
Now, he said that he would like to treat Iran the same way as he presumably would like to treat other countries, including France, which is to maintain good relations with all of those countries.
Now, this has opened up -- the war and the aftermath has, again, opened up a whole fascinating and difficult can of worms here. This country, with its oil wealth and its huge potential, has always been fought over by other countries, by the United States, now, perhaps, by Britain in the past, by France in the past.
And now we are seeing a bit of resurgence of all of that. So that's another thing that's really going to have to be worked out, exactly what countries have power in what ways over Iraq's future -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Finally, my final question, Jane, when talking about a diplomatic type of government -- or a democratic type of government, rather, calling for an Islamic state without the exclusion of others, how does the ayatollah plan to avoid any type of social explosion? It's such a sensitive time right now among all the different religious factions.
ARRAF: That's a really interesting question, because he, in fact, used those very words, "social explosion." He said that there was a power vacuum here, and if that weren't remedied, that there would, in fact, be exactly that social explosion. Now, as to how he would prevent that, the major feeling not just among the ayatollah, but other political leaders and other ordinary people as well is things have to happen faster. There has to be a political system in place. There has to be more security, and that's really what they're looking at.
All of those very basic things have to be built from the ground up, but there has been a power vacuum, as he puts it, and many people feel that on the ground, and as soon as that gets addressed, then that will certainly help stabilize this country, but it has to be done quickly, many people feel -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Our Jane Arraf, exclusive interview with Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim. Great work, Jane. Thank you so much.
ARRAF: Thanks, Kyra.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Troops>
