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Security in Iraq

Aired May 15, 2003 - 14:12   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Law and disorder? The American in Iraq in charge of rebuilding that country says it has serious problems. Details from John Vause in Baghdad. No doubt a serious problem -- John.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very much so, and Paul Bremer has been on the ground just four days. He says he's been meeting with and talking with the Iraqis, and he's getting the one message that law and order is the number one priority, but Paul Bremer did say today this is not a country in the state of anarchy. People are going about their business, they are going about their daily lives, but he says very little can be achieved on the political front without medical supplies, without aid work, without getting the power situation improved until people can walk the streets safely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL BREMER, U.S. IRAQ RECONSTRUCTION ADMIN.: We have to deal with the criminal elements here in Baghdad, and we will. As far as I'm concerned, it cannot come too soon that the people of Baghdad and other cities can walk about the streets in peace. The children can go to school, the hospitals can get its supplies. It can't come too soon, and you may be sure it is the top priority, not only of myself, but also of General McKiernan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Now in the coming days, Paul Bremer says there will be thousands of U.S. soldiers on the streets patrolling at night. There will also be thousands of Iraqis during the day. They're trying to get the police force back up and running. Now, he says that last night, for instance, there was 300 patrols and they arrested about 92 people.

In the last few days, they arrested hundreds of people. But still, there are widespread reports of rapes, and carjackings and revenge killing. So there is still a lot of work to be done there. And as far as the rules of engagement go, Paul Bremer says that U.S. soldiers haven't been told to shoot looters. Instead they'll be taken away and locked up. There are two courts now operating, and the looters will be dealt with through the court system.

Now as far as the Baath Party, Paul Bremer says he wants to make sure the Baath Party never returns to Iraq. In the next few days, he'll announce plans to aggressively target any remaining Baath Party officialas who may still hold positions of power -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, John Vause in Baghdad, thank you.

Peter Brookes is a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a former Defense Department official and a veteran of Operation Desert Storm. He joins us to talk about security in Iraq.

Hi, Peter.

PETER BROOKES HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Hi, Kyra, how are you?

PHILLIPS: I'm doing all right, thank you.

Well, John mentions the looting and the shooting situation. Let's start with that, because this is what I find very intriguing -- it comes out if you loot, you're getting shot, and then commanders back down and say, no, that's not the situation, it will only happen if our lives are being threatened in some way. Then I come in to work this morning and looters have been shot.

What's taking place here? Does there need to be a tough policy, just come out and say it, we're going to do it in order to gain control here?

BROOKES: Well, there is some bureaucratics to this as well. As you know, the rules of engagement are the guidebook upon which they our forces undertake their military operations. And right now, my understanding is the rules of engagement say that only shoot if you feel threatened, deadly force.

So I think in this case the fact that they came out and they talked about you loot, we shoot, was probably premature, because the rules of engagement come out of the Pentagon, and they were signed by the secretary of defense, seem not to have been changed at this point. So these other incidents, I'm not sure what happened in those shootings, unless the soldiers felt their lives were in danger.

PHILLIPS: Do you think the rules of engagement need to change? Do you think that there just needs to be an unprecedented policy here, because of the way things are? I mean, it has obviously gotten extremely out of control.

BROOKES: Well, you do need security. There's no doubt that that's the foundation for governance, for humanitarian operations, as well as reconstruction. You have to have security on the ground, and it's critically important.

The question is, and my concern is, there seems to be some resurgent Baathist elements. I mean, where did the Iraqi Guard go? I mean, these guys, they are causing some trouble, and our infantry soldiers are best suited to deal with that. They are not policemen. Remember, we probably need to bring in more military police, military folks who are trained for this sort of stuff. We need to get the Iraqi police force back up on its feet, or perhaps even an international police force, to deal with this issue, because our military folks there, our combat troops, still have somewhat of a military mission in ensuring that Saddam Hussein's followers do not rise up and cause more trouble. PHILLIPS: And the military is saying, hey, we're trying the best that we can. We're trying to get the Iraqi police back in order. We're training them. How does that happen? How does go about? And how do you know you can trust these individuals and they don't share any compassion with the former regime?

BROOKES: Well, you have to be very concerned about that. I think de-Baathfication, like de-Nazification, has got to be high on Paul Bremer's list right now in getting rid of these people. In a lot of these countries, corruption is endemic in these police forces. And we have to be very concerned we don't put a gun in the hand of somebody that will go toward retribution for other issues that are not related to putting Iraq back on its feet. So we have to be very concerned about the police force, but it is going to be critical to getting Baghdad back and the Iraqi people up and running.

PHILLIPS: Also Paul Bremer saying prior to the war that Saddam had released hundreds of prisoners out on the streets. That's got to be another dynamic to deal with. It's got to be a nightmare. How do you know who was the criminal, who was locked up for a while, and who is the innocent civilian maybe coming in to try to find some food?

BROOKES: And Iraqis and police officers are the best people to figure that out, not our young combat troops. So it's very important that we have the locals, we get this police force up and trained, finding reliable people to lead it, and then getting them to do their day-to-day job and getting our combat troops doing what they need to do, to ensure that there is not a resurgence of Saddam Hussein's followers.

PHILLIPS: Peter Brookes from the Heritage Foundation, always a pleasure. Thanks, Peter.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired May 15, 2003 - 14:12   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Law and disorder? The American in Iraq in charge of rebuilding that country says it has serious problems. Details from John Vause in Baghdad. No doubt a serious problem -- John.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very much so, and Paul Bremer has been on the ground just four days. He says he's been meeting with and talking with the Iraqis, and he's getting the one message that law and order is the number one priority, but Paul Bremer did say today this is not a country in the state of anarchy. People are going about their business, they are going about their daily lives, but he says very little can be achieved on the political front without medical supplies, without aid work, without getting the power situation improved until people can walk the streets safely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL BREMER, U.S. IRAQ RECONSTRUCTION ADMIN.: We have to deal with the criminal elements here in Baghdad, and we will. As far as I'm concerned, it cannot come too soon that the people of Baghdad and other cities can walk about the streets in peace. The children can go to school, the hospitals can get its supplies. It can't come too soon, and you may be sure it is the top priority, not only of myself, but also of General McKiernan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Now in the coming days, Paul Bremer says there will be thousands of U.S. soldiers on the streets patrolling at night. There will also be thousands of Iraqis during the day. They're trying to get the police force back up and running. Now, he says that last night, for instance, there was 300 patrols and they arrested about 92 people.

In the last few days, they arrested hundreds of people. But still, there are widespread reports of rapes, and carjackings and revenge killing. So there is still a lot of work to be done there. And as far as the rules of engagement go, Paul Bremer says that U.S. soldiers haven't been told to shoot looters. Instead they'll be taken away and locked up. There are two courts now operating, and the looters will be dealt with through the court system.

Now as far as the Baath Party, Paul Bremer says he wants to make sure the Baath Party never returns to Iraq. In the next few days, he'll announce plans to aggressively target any remaining Baath Party officialas who may still hold positions of power -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, John Vause in Baghdad, thank you.

Peter Brookes is a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a former Defense Department official and a veteran of Operation Desert Storm. He joins us to talk about security in Iraq.

Hi, Peter.

PETER BROOKES HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Hi, Kyra, how are you?

PHILLIPS: I'm doing all right, thank you.

Well, John mentions the looting and the shooting situation. Let's start with that, because this is what I find very intriguing -- it comes out if you loot, you're getting shot, and then commanders back down and say, no, that's not the situation, it will only happen if our lives are being threatened in some way. Then I come in to work this morning and looters have been shot.

What's taking place here? Does there need to be a tough policy, just come out and say it, we're going to do it in order to gain control here?

BROOKES: Well, there is some bureaucratics to this as well. As you know, the rules of engagement are the guidebook upon which they our forces undertake their military operations. And right now, my understanding is the rules of engagement say that only shoot if you feel threatened, deadly force.

So I think in this case the fact that they came out and they talked about you loot, we shoot, was probably premature, because the rules of engagement come out of the Pentagon, and they were signed by the secretary of defense, seem not to have been changed at this point. So these other incidents, I'm not sure what happened in those shootings, unless the soldiers felt their lives were in danger.

PHILLIPS: Do you think the rules of engagement need to change? Do you think that there just needs to be an unprecedented policy here, because of the way things are? I mean, it has obviously gotten extremely out of control.

BROOKES: Well, you do need security. There's no doubt that that's the foundation for governance, for humanitarian operations, as well as reconstruction. You have to have security on the ground, and it's critically important.

The question is, and my concern is, there seems to be some resurgent Baathist elements. I mean, where did the Iraqi Guard go? I mean, these guys, they are causing some trouble, and our infantry soldiers are best suited to deal with that. They are not policemen. Remember, we probably need to bring in more military police, military folks who are trained for this sort of stuff. We need to get the Iraqi police force back up on its feet, or perhaps even an international police force, to deal with this issue, because our military folks there, our combat troops, still have somewhat of a military mission in ensuring that Saddam Hussein's followers do not rise up and cause more trouble. PHILLIPS: And the military is saying, hey, we're trying the best that we can. We're trying to get the Iraqi police back in order. We're training them. How does that happen? How does go about? And how do you know you can trust these individuals and they don't share any compassion with the former regime?

BROOKES: Well, you have to be very concerned about that. I think de-Baathfication, like de-Nazification, has got to be high on Paul Bremer's list right now in getting rid of these people. In a lot of these countries, corruption is endemic in these police forces. And we have to be very concerned we don't put a gun in the hand of somebody that will go toward retribution for other issues that are not related to putting Iraq back on its feet. So we have to be very concerned about the police force, but it is going to be critical to getting Baghdad back and the Iraqi people up and running.

PHILLIPS: Also Paul Bremer saying prior to the war that Saddam had released hundreds of prisoners out on the streets. That's got to be another dynamic to deal with. It's got to be a nightmare. How do you know who was the criminal, who was locked up for a while, and who is the innocent civilian maybe coming in to try to find some food?

BROOKES: And Iraqis and police officers are the best people to figure that out, not our young combat troops. So it's very important that we have the locals, we get this police force up and trained, finding reliable people to lead it, and then getting them to do their day-to-day job and getting our combat troops doing what they need to do, to ensure that there is not a resurgence of Saddam Hussein's followers.

PHILLIPS: Peter Brookes from the Heritage Foundation, always a pleasure. Thanks, Peter.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com