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Political Dustup Over Ban on Assault Weapons

Aired May 15, 2003 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush says that he supports an extension of the ban that expires in September of 2004. He appeared in an event in Washington today with police chiefs. Now many of them support the ban, too. But there has been some question as to whether the GOP-led House of Representatives will bring the weapons ban up for a vote. And today, the top two House Republican leaders appear to be at odds over the issue.
Let's check in with our congressional correspondent, Kate Snow. Kate, what's going on?

KATE SNOW, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Judy, the question is, will they bring up this assault weapons ban for a vote or not. It's an important question, because gun control is such a touchy political subject up here on Capitol Hill. It can, of course, make or break a candidate when it comes down to elections.

From House Republican leader Tom DeLay, here is the latest answer just within the past half-hour. Tom DeLay telling CNN "I don't think there are the votes for it. We don't like to bring up legislation we don't think can pass in the U.S. House."

That is not the same message that we're hearing from House speaker Dennis Hastert. Hastert earlier today said he wanted to straighten out the record. He tried to correct earlier comments by Tom DeLay to the same effect that the votes weren't there and that they would not bring up the assault weapons ban for a vote.

Mr. Hastert earlier today saying we haven't had those discussions yet. Here's what he said. "That bill hasn't been discussed by the leadership yet, and I haven't had a discussion with the president yet. So I'm not ready to make that decision about whether to bring this up for a vote or not."

Meantime, House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi today urging her fellow Republicans to go ahead with a vote. She says the president should lead the charge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: I believe that if the president weighs in on it, it will both come up on the floor and have an improved chance of passage. And the president said he supports the bill. I trust that he does, and I hope that he will work for its passage as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SNOW: But remember back in 1994, Judy, this was a big issue then. It was a very close vote when they first passed the ban on certain kinds of assault weapons, of semi-automatic weapons. It barely passed the House and the Senate, then led by Democrats.

It led to a lot of Democrats losing their seats. In fact, the Republicans took over the House that year. So Democratic aides saying they're none too anxious to bring this up either for political reasons.

One Democratic aide said to me, "We'd rather see the president push for this if he really wants to push for it." This aide saying we, the Democrats, are not going to take the bullet on this one -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Well, given that, Kate, I know you're talking to people on all sides of this. What's your sense about the White House and what their real desire is? We know they're saying the president isn't going to be aggressively lobbying, but what do they really want here?

SNOW: Well, according to our John King over at the White House, aides have been telling him he's not going to get out there and really push the House or the Senate to try to take up this bill. So that tells you something right there, that, you know, while he may want to say through aides, through spokespeople that he's in favor of extending the ban, he's not going to publicly make that case, he's not going to push the Congress to go ahead and take a vote.

He's trying to sort of have it both ways, say his critics. He wants to both please the NRA by not getting out in front on this, but also show that he is compassionate about gun control by saying that he supports it through his spokespeople -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: All right. Kate Snow reporting from the Capitol. Thank you, Kate.

Now we have a debate on the assault weapons ban. I'm joined by Erich Pratt of the Gun Owners of America and by Peter Ham. He's with the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

Eric Pratt, to you first. Yesterday, I would think that you would have taken heart when you had Tom DeLay, the second ranking Republican in the House of Representatives, saying I don't think the votes are there, this is going to come up for a vote. But today, you have the House speaker, Dennis Hastert, saying, well, we haven't even discussed it yet.

Where do you come down? Does this concern you now?

ERICH PRATT, GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA: Well, certainly, I think there is a concern, but I don't think this will go through the House. And, first of all, I think it needs to be said these aren't assault weapons that we're talking about. These are very commonly owned firearms which actually have a much less firepower than your average shotgun. These are owned by millions of Americans, or were, and are very much opposed by millions of Americans. And that's why I think this has become such a political football. It was mentioned earlier in the report what happened in 1994, and President Clinton himself said that it was this issue that cost his party the control of the Congress. So I think both sides of the aisle are going to be very reticent to take this up.

WOODRUFF: Peter Hamm, I want to ask you about two points that he made. First of all, his point that these assaults, that it's a misnomer, they're not really assault weapons.

PETER HAMM, BRADY CAMPAIGN TO PREVENT GUN VIOLENCE: Common household items that we all have in our homes is what the gun owners are saying (ph).

PRATT: These are owned by millions of...

(CROSSTALK)

WOODRUFF: Well, what are they?

PRATT: Owned by millions of Americans, rather.

HAMM: What these are are machines that were designed for killing large numbers of people as quickly as possible. They have a very specific use, which is for the military to use in a time of war. There's no rational reason to have them.

PRATT: Peter, these are not -- these weapons which were banned are not owned by one military on the earth. I challenge you to show me which military even owns one of these firearms. These are all semi-automatic firearms. You pull the trigger once and one bullet comes out of the barrel.

(CROSSTALK)

HAMM: Ninety (ph) percent of Americans would like to know, Erich, what is the need? What is the need?

PRATT: How about the Koreans and Los Angeles?

WOODRUFF: Why don't you let him finish his point?

PRATT: The Koreans in Los Angeles, they protected their stores with these firearms. Their stores continued standing after the riots.

WOODRUFF: Let Mr. Hamm finish his point.

PRATT: You asked me a question, Peter. I'm just telling you.

HAMM: Yes, I know. And let's talk about the five school children and the 29 school children who were wounded in Stockton, California in 1989 with one of these weapons.

WOODRUFF: Could you please let Mr. Hamm finish his point? PRATT: Let's talk about his question.

HAMM: The eight people who were killed in the law firm in San Francisco in 1993. The CIA employees who were killed...

PRATT: Peter, more hands and feet commit murder than these firearms. More hands and feet.

HAMM: Oh, please. Please.

PRATT: Look at the statistics. The Bureau of Justice statistics...

(CROSSTALK)

HAMM: The basic situation is this: you have a weapon that is used to fire many bullets very quickly, which the basic human response time being to stop someone who is going to open fire is not fast enough to stop some crazy madman who has got these guns.

PRATT: I can fire more with a shotgun. The average shotgun will fire more.

HAMM: There is no rational explanation for having...

PRATT: Peter, you don't know your firearms.

WOODRUFF: All right. I want to get back to the Hill, to the Capitol. I understand the two of you are very far apart on what these are. But Mr. Hamm, quickly, this division in the House leadership, does that give you any hope here?

HAMM: Well, I'll tell you what, it does. It gives us a chance to remind America that George W. Bush not once, not twice, but repeatedly, in his campaign for president, said that he wanted to reauthorize this assault weapons ban.

WOODRUFF: Right.

HAMM: It was not a casual issue that he took a casual position on. It was a specific strategy, a Sister Souljah (ph) if you will, and he should be held accountable for having taken that position and he should fight to get the bill passed.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Pratt, let me...

PRATT: Actually, to be technical, he said he supported the law, and the law contains a sunset which will occur next September. So if he sticks with that commitment, he will...

HAMM: Well if that's the White House's argument for why they don't have to fight for this, then I think that the American people show know that. That it's a technicality. That I said I support the law but I don't support reauthorizing it.

(CROSSTALK) WOODRUFF: Let me just quickly ask you one final thing. Erich Pratt, the White House is saying right now the president right now has no plans to lobby. Your group has put out an alert, Gun Owners of America, saying, in thinking that bill will never reach the president's desk the president is "trying to please both sides and playing a very dangerous game." Are they playing a dangerous game here?

PRATT: I think they are to the extent that if he does come out and support this, if he signs a bill, if it crosses his desk, I think he'll run into the problem that the president saw -- President Clinton saw in losing control of the Congress. He needs to remember that he's in the White House today because Al Gore was too far left on the gun issue. Top Democratic leaders have said that the one issue that cost him three critical states was the gun issue, and that's why George Bush got the nomination.

WOODRUFF: All right. If he's trying to please both sides, are you, as gun control advocates, pleased by the White House position?

HAMM: We're pleased by the White House's position. But, Judy, the problem is we're hearing all these rumors. We're hearing -- I mean Gun Owners of the America members talked to Karl Rove about this in New Hampshire last week and he said oh, don't worry, it's not going to get to the president's desk. And, basically, that's our strategy.

The senior Republican aides from the House who said in "The Washington Post" the other day, the White House doesn't want us to vote on this. That's not fair. If he's going to support the bill, he should support the bill and we should get it passed.

WOODRUFF: Well, much more to unfold on this issue, that is for sure. Erich Pratt, Peter Hamm, good to have both of you. We really appreciate you talking to us this afternoon.

PRATT: Thank you very much.

HAMM: Thank you, Judy.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired May 15, 2003 - 15:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush says that he supports an extension of the ban that expires in September of 2004. He appeared in an event in Washington today with police chiefs. Now many of them support the ban, too. But there has been some question as to whether the GOP-led House of Representatives will bring the weapons ban up for a vote. And today, the top two House Republican leaders appear to be at odds over the issue.
Let's check in with our congressional correspondent, Kate Snow. Kate, what's going on?

KATE SNOW, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Judy, the question is, will they bring up this assault weapons ban for a vote or not. It's an important question, because gun control is such a touchy political subject up here on Capitol Hill. It can, of course, make or break a candidate when it comes down to elections.

From House Republican leader Tom DeLay, here is the latest answer just within the past half-hour. Tom DeLay telling CNN "I don't think there are the votes for it. We don't like to bring up legislation we don't think can pass in the U.S. House."

That is not the same message that we're hearing from House speaker Dennis Hastert. Hastert earlier today said he wanted to straighten out the record. He tried to correct earlier comments by Tom DeLay to the same effect that the votes weren't there and that they would not bring up the assault weapons ban for a vote.

Mr. Hastert earlier today saying we haven't had those discussions yet. Here's what he said. "That bill hasn't been discussed by the leadership yet, and I haven't had a discussion with the president yet. So I'm not ready to make that decision about whether to bring this up for a vote or not."

Meantime, House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi today urging her fellow Republicans to go ahead with a vote. She says the president should lead the charge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: I believe that if the president weighs in on it, it will both come up on the floor and have an improved chance of passage. And the president said he supports the bill. I trust that he does, and I hope that he will work for its passage as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SNOW: But remember back in 1994, Judy, this was a big issue then. It was a very close vote when they first passed the ban on certain kinds of assault weapons, of semi-automatic weapons. It barely passed the House and the Senate, then led by Democrats.

It led to a lot of Democrats losing their seats. In fact, the Republicans took over the House that year. So Democratic aides saying they're none too anxious to bring this up either for political reasons.

One Democratic aide said to me, "We'd rather see the president push for this if he really wants to push for it." This aide saying we, the Democrats, are not going to take the bullet on this one -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Well, given that, Kate, I know you're talking to people on all sides of this. What's your sense about the White House and what their real desire is? We know they're saying the president isn't going to be aggressively lobbying, but what do they really want here?

SNOW: Well, according to our John King over at the White House, aides have been telling him he's not going to get out there and really push the House or the Senate to try to take up this bill. So that tells you something right there, that, you know, while he may want to say through aides, through spokespeople that he's in favor of extending the ban, he's not going to publicly make that case, he's not going to push the Congress to go ahead and take a vote.

He's trying to sort of have it both ways, say his critics. He wants to both please the NRA by not getting out in front on this, but also show that he is compassionate about gun control by saying that he supports it through his spokespeople -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: All right. Kate Snow reporting from the Capitol. Thank you, Kate.

Now we have a debate on the assault weapons ban. I'm joined by Erich Pratt of the Gun Owners of America and by Peter Ham. He's with the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

Eric Pratt, to you first. Yesterday, I would think that you would have taken heart when you had Tom DeLay, the second ranking Republican in the House of Representatives, saying I don't think the votes are there, this is going to come up for a vote. But today, you have the House speaker, Dennis Hastert, saying, well, we haven't even discussed it yet.

Where do you come down? Does this concern you now?

ERICH PRATT, GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA: Well, certainly, I think there is a concern, but I don't think this will go through the House. And, first of all, I think it needs to be said these aren't assault weapons that we're talking about. These are very commonly owned firearms which actually have a much less firepower than your average shotgun. These are owned by millions of Americans, or were, and are very much opposed by millions of Americans. And that's why I think this has become such a political football. It was mentioned earlier in the report what happened in 1994, and President Clinton himself said that it was this issue that cost his party the control of the Congress. So I think both sides of the aisle are going to be very reticent to take this up.

WOODRUFF: Peter Hamm, I want to ask you about two points that he made. First of all, his point that these assaults, that it's a misnomer, they're not really assault weapons.

PETER HAMM, BRADY CAMPAIGN TO PREVENT GUN VIOLENCE: Common household items that we all have in our homes is what the gun owners are saying (ph).

PRATT: These are owned by millions of...

(CROSSTALK)

WOODRUFF: Well, what are they?

PRATT: Owned by millions of Americans, rather.

HAMM: What these are are machines that were designed for killing large numbers of people as quickly as possible. They have a very specific use, which is for the military to use in a time of war. There's no rational reason to have them.

PRATT: Peter, these are not -- these weapons which were banned are not owned by one military on the earth. I challenge you to show me which military even owns one of these firearms. These are all semi-automatic firearms. You pull the trigger once and one bullet comes out of the barrel.

(CROSSTALK)

HAMM: Ninety (ph) percent of Americans would like to know, Erich, what is the need? What is the need?

PRATT: How about the Koreans and Los Angeles?

WOODRUFF: Why don't you let him finish his point?

PRATT: The Koreans in Los Angeles, they protected their stores with these firearms. Their stores continued standing after the riots.

WOODRUFF: Let Mr. Hamm finish his point.

PRATT: You asked me a question, Peter. I'm just telling you.

HAMM: Yes, I know. And let's talk about the five school children and the 29 school children who were wounded in Stockton, California in 1989 with one of these weapons.

WOODRUFF: Could you please let Mr. Hamm finish his point? PRATT: Let's talk about his question.

HAMM: The eight people who were killed in the law firm in San Francisco in 1993. The CIA employees who were killed...

PRATT: Peter, more hands and feet commit murder than these firearms. More hands and feet.

HAMM: Oh, please. Please.

PRATT: Look at the statistics. The Bureau of Justice statistics...

(CROSSTALK)

HAMM: The basic situation is this: you have a weapon that is used to fire many bullets very quickly, which the basic human response time being to stop someone who is going to open fire is not fast enough to stop some crazy madman who has got these guns.

PRATT: I can fire more with a shotgun. The average shotgun will fire more.

HAMM: There is no rational explanation for having...

PRATT: Peter, you don't know your firearms.

WOODRUFF: All right. I want to get back to the Hill, to the Capitol. I understand the two of you are very far apart on what these are. But Mr. Hamm, quickly, this division in the House leadership, does that give you any hope here?

HAMM: Well, I'll tell you what, it does. It gives us a chance to remind America that George W. Bush not once, not twice, but repeatedly, in his campaign for president, said that he wanted to reauthorize this assault weapons ban.

WOODRUFF: Right.

HAMM: It was not a casual issue that he took a casual position on. It was a specific strategy, a Sister Souljah (ph) if you will, and he should be held accountable for having taken that position and he should fight to get the bill passed.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Pratt, let me...

PRATT: Actually, to be technical, he said he supported the law, and the law contains a sunset which will occur next September. So if he sticks with that commitment, he will...

HAMM: Well if that's the White House's argument for why they don't have to fight for this, then I think that the American people show know that. That it's a technicality. That I said I support the law but I don't support reauthorizing it.

(CROSSTALK) WOODRUFF: Let me just quickly ask you one final thing. Erich Pratt, the White House is saying right now the president right now has no plans to lobby. Your group has put out an alert, Gun Owners of America, saying, in thinking that bill will never reach the president's desk the president is "trying to please both sides and playing a very dangerous game." Are they playing a dangerous game here?

PRATT: I think they are to the extent that if he does come out and support this, if he signs a bill, if it crosses his desk, I think he'll run into the problem that the president saw -- President Clinton saw in losing control of the Congress. He needs to remember that he's in the White House today because Al Gore was too far left on the gun issue. Top Democratic leaders have said that the one issue that cost him three critical states was the gun issue, and that's why George Bush got the nomination.

WOODRUFF: All right. If he's trying to please both sides, are you, as gun control advocates, pleased by the White House position?

HAMM: We're pleased by the White House's position. But, Judy, the problem is we're hearing all these rumors. We're hearing -- I mean Gun Owners of the America members talked to Karl Rove about this in New Hampshire last week and he said oh, don't worry, it's not going to get to the president's desk. And, basically, that's our strategy.

The senior Republican aides from the House who said in "The Washington Post" the other day, the White House doesn't want us to vote on this. That's not fair. If he's going to support the bill, he should support the bill and we should get it passed.

WOODRUFF: Well, much more to unfold on this issue, that is for sure. Erich Pratt, Peter Hamm, good to have both of you. We really appreciate you talking to us this afternoon.

PRATT: Thank you very much.

HAMM: Thank you, Judy.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com