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Investigations Turn Up Iraqi Antiquities
Aired May 16, 2003 - 13:35 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Do you remember those reports of major looting at the Baghdad museum? Well, a former New York prosecutor who is heading up an investigation says the reports may have been grossly exaggerated.
CNN's Jane Arraf now in Baghdad with the latest on that, and an exclusive look inside that amazing museum -- hi, Jane.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra. Well, we've just been hearing about the aftermath and the results of the first phase of this investigation, a fascinating detective story into these objects, priceless objects, that have gone missing from the beginning of civilization, and we have with us Colonel Matthew Bogdanos who is going to talk to us about what exactly that investigation has revealed so far.
What have you learned?
COL. MATTHEW BOGDANOS, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Well, throughout the first phase of the investigation, for the first month, our focus has been primarily on recovery of the stolen antiquities, rather than on criminal prosecution, and what we've learned so far is that far fewer are missing or stolen than we had originally feared. From the public galleries themselves, that particular portion of the museum where the items were on display, we've learned that 42 of those items, or exhibits were originally stolen.
So far, we've been able to recover nine, so 33 still remain. In the storage rooms themselves, however, contain tens on thousands of excavation site pieces, we are still struggling to work through that inventory, but the numbers are heartwarming for us, because we're seeing numbers that are far, far lower than we had first been led to believe.
ARRAF: And you've got some of them back, some on this table I understand. Can you tell me about some of these pieces?
BOGDANOS: Yes. Sure. Since we've been here, we've recovered close to 1,000 pieces, and when you consider that each piece lost is a tragedy, but each piece recovered is an absolute joy, so when we have 951 pieces recovered, it's cause for celebration.
Before you here, pottery vessels, jars, and the like, from Sumerian period, so roughly 3000 B.C. to about 2650 B.C.
You see more pieces -- one of the challenges we've had -- these are 16 pieces, or pottery shards. This is how they were recovered from the excavation site, and each one, you see, is cataloged with a separate number, highlighting one of the problems we've had in counting and determining what is and is not missing.
Here we have one of my absolute favorite pieces, a 6th millennium B.C., so 7,000-year-old vessel right here. You can still see the burnt red ocher on the side. As you will recall from your schooling, 7,000 years ago means before the wheel. So this was hand modeled from Tel Hasuna (ph), one of the first sites of its kind to reveal these pots, and that's in -- north of Baghdad.
Here, we have one of the earliest known Sumerian free-standing statues. It is a statue of a male priest. You can tell by the way he's dressed. He would be naked on top, and have a skirt around the bottom. This is another piece that we have recovered during the course of our investigation.
ARRAF: How did you -- how did you recover these pieces?
BOGDANOS: Every one has its own story. This particular piece, the gentleman came by pursuant to our amnesty program we established through community outreach through religious clerics and community leaders, through walking through the community, through stopping and having more tea than I can possibly tell you at coffee shops, telling people, please, return the items, no questions asked.
We had one gentleman come to the gate three times. The first time, Well, what would happen if I had a friend who knew a friend who might have had the item? Finally, the third time, we got him to come back. He bought this particular piece in a plastic bag.
This piece here highlights one of the challenges -- another one of the challenges we've had. This piece did not come from the museum itself, it's a cuneiform brick stolen from the excavation site at Babylon. It had -- when it was stolen, we don't know, but it was returned to us pursuant to the amnesty program. He actually wanted money, which we declined, but we did relieve him of this item. But this highlights the already existing black market in antiquities that's been going on for decades.
ARRAF: Now, how much of this, do you think, was looted, the things that are still missing, acting on inside information? Was this an inside job?
BOGDANOS: Well, one of the challenges we've had is that it's never one thing. What we've determined in the first month of the investigation during this phase is that you have different dynamics working. You have a group of individuals -- or individuals who knew what they were looking for. Those are the individuals who went to the public galleries and selected the 42 items we spoke about a moment ago.
But then, in the basement storage magazines, or storage rooms, you have a completely different dynamic, and what you have there, in the most remote magazine, in the most room, in the most remote corner, the most easily trafficable and transportable items were stolen -- or, in fact, attempted to be stolen, because the individual who tried to do this actually had the keys to this particular location, keys which were hidden away in another part of the museum. As fate and fortune would have it -- remember there was no electricity so it was dark, he or she dropped the keys in one of the boxes of cylinder seals and amulets and pendants, and what we found in that room is -- 30, 40 boxes strewn in every direction and hundreds upon thousands of cylinder seals and amulets and pendants strewn across the floor.
We ultimately located, when we went through -- methodically through that room, we located the keys that this person had left there, and as I said, as fate would have it, those keys were to storage cabinets which contain one of the finest collections of gold and silver Greek and Roman and Hellenistic and Islamic coins in the entire world. Tens of thousands of coins, and some of the finest, most exquisite cylinder seals in existence in storage cabinets that were untouched because the keys lay on the floor.
ARRAF: It's an amazing story. Thank you so much. That was Colonel Matthew Bogdanos who has been handling this investigation into this fascinating detective story. As he was saying, much fewer -- far fewer than the 170,000 pieces originally thought missing are missing. In fact, there are fewer than 30. But still, some of those still out there are absolutely priceless -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Jane, I got a quick question for you, if you could ask the colonel this. As we're watching this interview -- I mean, this is so fascinating. You see this man in a military uniform, you think of a Marine as someone going into battle, but he sounds like a historian. Where does his expertise come from?
ARRAF: I have just got to ask you, Kyra wants to know where your expertise comes from. Now, we know that you're an assistant district attorney, a prosecutor. You have been involved in prosecuting Puff Daddy, which is not exactly background for this. How did you come to do this?
BOGDANOS: Well, I'm the deputy director of a joint inter-agency task force designed to do counterterrorism and law enforcement operations throughout the entire area of operations for U.S. Central Command. It was a unit that was stood up shortly after September 11, and in response to September 11 that was meant to merge or marry the best skill sets or capabilities of the military with those of the U.S. government and law enforcement agencies.
There are 12 separate law enforcement agencies represented in our unit. We began in Afghanistan. From Afghanistan, we did pretty much exclusively counterterrorism operations against al Qaeda and Taliban. Moving into Yemen, the same types of operations, al Qaeda and Taliban.
When we came to Iraq, and our mission changed slightly into the search for weapons of mass destruction, terrorists financing, and UNSCR violations, what we call sensitive site exploitations, we were already in-country, operating on another mission in another part of the country, when we were tasked by General Franks with Central Command to put together a team designed especially to investigate the Iraq museum theft. So I put together a team from an already existing team, consisting primarily of customs agents, experts in art smuggling. It is sheer coincidence I have a background in classical studies and classical antiquities, and I'm humbled, truly, to be here, giving my knowledge of these things, but seeing what I see here.
ARRAF: A long way from al Qaeda to the Iraq National Museum. Thanks so much -- back to you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Definitely an interesting journey. Jane Arraf and Colonel Bogdanos. Thank you so much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 16, 2003 - 13:35 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Do you remember those reports of major looting at the Baghdad museum? Well, a former New York prosecutor who is heading up an investigation says the reports may have been grossly exaggerated.
CNN's Jane Arraf now in Baghdad with the latest on that, and an exclusive look inside that amazing museum -- hi, Jane.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Kyra. Well, we've just been hearing about the aftermath and the results of the first phase of this investigation, a fascinating detective story into these objects, priceless objects, that have gone missing from the beginning of civilization, and we have with us Colonel Matthew Bogdanos who is going to talk to us about what exactly that investigation has revealed so far.
What have you learned?
COL. MATTHEW BOGDANOS, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Well, throughout the first phase of the investigation, for the first month, our focus has been primarily on recovery of the stolen antiquities, rather than on criminal prosecution, and what we've learned so far is that far fewer are missing or stolen than we had originally feared. From the public galleries themselves, that particular portion of the museum where the items were on display, we've learned that 42 of those items, or exhibits were originally stolen.
So far, we've been able to recover nine, so 33 still remain. In the storage rooms themselves, however, contain tens on thousands of excavation site pieces, we are still struggling to work through that inventory, but the numbers are heartwarming for us, because we're seeing numbers that are far, far lower than we had first been led to believe.
ARRAF: And you've got some of them back, some on this table I understand. Can you tell me about some of these pieces?
BOGDANOS: Yes. Sure. Since we've been here, we've recovered close to 1,000 pieces, and when you consider that each piece lost is a tragedy, but each piece recovered is an absolute joy, so when we have 951 pieces recovered, it's cause for celebration.
Before you here, pottery vessels, jars, and the like, from Sumerian period, so roughly 3000 B.C. to about 2650 B.C.
You see more pieces -- one of the challenges we've had -- these are 16 pieces, or pottery shards. This is how they were recovered from the excavation site, and each one, you see, is cataloged with a separate number, highlighting one of the problems we've had in counting and determining what is and is not missing.
Here we have one of my absolute favorite pieces, a 6th millennium B.C., so 7,000-year-old vessel right here. You can still see the burnt red ocher on the side. As you will recall from your schooling, 7,000 years ago means before the wheel. So this was hand modeled from Tel Hasuna (ph), one of the first sites of its kind to reveal these pots, and that's in -- north of Baghdad.
Here, we have one of the earliest known Sumerian free-standing statues. It is a statue of a male priest. You can tell by the way he's dressed. He would be naked on top, and have a skirt around the bottom. This is another piece that we have recovered during the course of our investigation.
ARRAF: How did you -- how did you recover these pieces?
BOGDANOS: Every one has its own story. This particular piece, the gentleman came by pursuant to our amnesty program we established through community outreach through religious clerics and community leaders, through walking through the community, through stopping and having more tea than I can possibly tell you at coffee shops, telling people, please, return the items, no questions asked.
We had one gentleman come to the gate three times. The first time, Well, what would happen if I had a friend who knew a friend who might have had the item? Finally, the third time, we got him to come back. He bought this particular piece in a plastic bag.
This piece here highlights one of the challenges -- another one of the challenges we've had. This piece did not come from the museum itself, it's a cuneiform brick stolen from the excavation site at Babylon. It had -- when it was stolen, we don't know, but it was returned to us pursuant to the amnesty program. He actually wanted money, which we declined, but we did relieve him of this item. But this highlights the already existing black market in antiquities that's been going on for decades.
ARRAF: Now, how much of this, do you think, was looted, the things that are still missing, acting on inside information? Was this an inside job?
BOGDANOS: Well, one of the challenges we've had is that it's never one thing. What we've determined in the first month of the investigation during this phase is that you have different dynamics working. You have a group of individuals -- or individuals who knew what they were looking for. Those are the individuals who went to the public galleries and selected the 42 items we spoke about a moment ago.
But then, in the basement storage magazines, or storage rooms, you have a completely different dynamic, and what you have there, in the most remote magazine, in the most room, in the most remote corner, the most easily trafficable and transportable items were stolen -- or, in fact, attempted to be stolen, because the individual who tried to do this actually had the keys to this particular location, keys which were hidden away in another part of the museum. As fate and fortune would have it -- remember there was no electricity so it was dark, he or she dropped the keys in one of the boxes of cylinder seals and amulets and pendants, and what we found in that room is -- 30, 40 boxes strewn in every direction and hundreds upon thousands of cylinder seals and amulets and pendants strewn across the floor.
We ultimately located, when we went through -- methodically through that room, we located the keys that this person had left there, and as I said, as fate would have it, those keys were to storage cabinets which contain one of the finest collections of gold and silver Greek and Roman and Hellenistic and Islamic coins in the entire world. Tens of thousands of coins, and some of the finest, most exquisite cylinder seals in existence in storage cabinets that were untouched because the keys lay on the floor.
ARRAF: It's an amazing story. Thank you so much. That was Colonel Matthew Bogdanos who has been handling this investigation into this fascinating detective story. As he was saying, much fewer -- far fewer than the 170,000 pieces originally thought missing are missing. In fact, there are fewer than 30. But still, some of those still out there are absolutely priceless -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Jane, I got a quick question for you, if you could ask the colonel this. As we're watching this interview -- I mean, this is so fascinating. You see this man in a military uniform, you think of a Marine as someone going into battle, but he sounds like a historian. Where does his expertise come from?
ARRAF: I have just got to ask you, Kyra wants to know where your expertise comes from. Now, we know that you're an assistant district attorney, a prosecutor. You have been involved in prosecuting Puff Daddy, which is not exactly background for this. How did you come to do this?
BOGDANOS: Well, I'm the deputy director of a joint inter-agency task force designed to do counterterrorism and law enforcement operations throughout the entire area of operations for U.S. Central Command. It was a unit that was stood up shortly after September 11, and in response to September 11 that was meant to merge or marry the best skill sets or capabilities of the military with those of the U.S. government and law enforcement agencies.
There are 12 separate law enforcement agencies represented in our unit. We began in Afghanistan. From Afghanistan, we did pretty much exclusively counterterrorism operations against al Qaeda and Taliban. Moving into Yemen, the same types of operations, al Qaeda and Taliban.
When we came to Iraq, and our mission changed slightly into the search for weapons of mass destruction, terrorists financing, and UNSCR violations, what we call sensitive site exploitations, we were already in-country, operating on another mission in another part of the country, when we were tasked by General Franks with Central Command to put together a team designed especially to investigate the Iraq museum theft. So I put together a team from an already existing team, consisting primarily of customs agents, experts in art smuggling. It is sheer coincidence I have a background in classical studies and classical antiquities, and I'm humbled, truly, to be here, giving my knowledge of these things, but seeing what I see here.
ARRAF: A long way from al Qaeda to the Iraq National Museum. Thanks so much -- back to you, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Definitely an interesting journey. Jane Arraf and Colonel Bogdanos. Thank you so much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
