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Familiar Scenario Foiled in Saudi Arabia?

Aired May 21, 2003 - 13:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it all sounds so familiar: terrorists armed with knives and a possible plot to hijack a plane and fly it into a building, and it may have been foiled at the very last minute at an airport in Saudi Arabia. CNN's Sheila MacVicar standing by in Riyadh to tell us more about that and about some other concerns.
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Miles, the more we hear about what might have happened at Jeddah airport on Monday evening, the, frankly, more frightening story becomes.

It goes this way: three men show up at the airport, one of them begins to act in kind of an odd manner. He is spotted by a Saudi security official. They look at the three of them traveling together, and realize that one of the men is on the Saudi wanted list. It is not clear at this point if they have already cleared security or if they are just about to check in.

At any rate, they are pulled over, they are searched, and Saudi officials find knives on them and documents that are being described to CNN as a kind of last will and testament.

Now, that will sound pretty familiar to investigators of 9/11. You may remember, Miles, that investigators found that those 9/11 hijackers had similar documents with them, or in their luggage after they hijacked those planes.

Now, a Saudi security source tells CNN that Saudi officials have learned that the plan was to hijack that Saudia flight -- that is the Saudi national airlines -- and fly the building into -- fly the plane, rather, into a building in downtown Jeddah.

Now, we're told Saudi authorities believe that these three men are members of al Qaeda, and we are also told that they believe these three men are members of the same cell that carried out the bombings last week here in Riyadh.

We are told they don't think they participated in these bombings, but they should have a lot of information, and that should give the Saudi authorities the break they need. The investigation into those bombings has been progressing very slowly, at least in public, and this may give the Saudi authorities the break they need to really move ahead at the time of heightened security here in Saudi Arabia -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: It is very early on in this investigation, but what do we know about the possible target here? Was the building that they were after in any way linked to Western interests? MACVICAR: I have been given the name of the building. I have also been asked, for the time being, not to report the name of that building. What I can tell you is that the building is a significant structure on the Jeddah horizon. I can also tell you that the building is -- the building is Saudi-owned, and the company that it represents is also Saudi-owned.

Again, the plane that we were talking about, the hijackers -- or would-be hijackers wanted to take over was a Saudia flight, that is the Saudi national airline.

One of the questions over the course of the last ten days or so has been, what's the purpose, what's the message has been behind last week's attacks? Was it something that was aimed simply at Westerners, or was it something, as many people here think, aimed at larger goals, of, perhaps, of challenging and damaging the Saudi government.

When you look at the bombings last week, they may have struck compounds in which Westerners resided, but they also killed and injured many Saudis and other Arabs, and many of those compounds house Westerners that provide essential services to things like the Royal Saudi Air Force or the Saudi National Guard.

So a real feeling here is that there is -- that these cells are operating as a real challenge to Saudi Arabia's government. Now, we're at a state of heightened alert, you will have heard that, Miles. The U.S., British and Germany embassies are closed today, will stay closed for a period of time, and that's because of what is described as unspecified but credible information that new terror attacks may be imminent here -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. On that ominous note, unfortunately, we have to leave it. Sheila MacVicar, live from Riyadh. We appreciate your report. That sounds scarier all of the time, as she put it -- Kyra.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: ... apparent call to arms, allegedly from one of Osama bin Laden's top deputies. Egyptian terrorist Ayman al-Zawahiri purportedly calls on Muslims to attack Western interests abroad and predicts that something will happen in the next few days. This is just yet another mysterious audiotape, and CNN's Nic Robertson has given it a careful listen. Let's talk about the authenticity, and let's talk about al-Zawahiri.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We don't know if it is al-Zawahiri. No. 1, the voice is younger -- sounds younger than he is. He is, perhaps, in his mid-50s. The tape has been heavily edited. The accent of the person reading it, though, however, is Egyptian. Ayman al-Zawahiri is an Egyptian, so perhaps that an indication in may, in fact, be him.

What we do know is that this calls -- it is a call to arms for people in the Middle East. It calls on them to attack the interests of the United States, of Great Britain, of Australia, and, for the first time, Norway as well. And it tells the people of that region that while their leaders said that they were opposed to the war on Iraq, they very much went ahead and supported it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Here are the rulers of the Muslims granting airports, bases and facilities, and allowing the ships to cross their territorial waters. And supplying them with fuel and food, and granting permission to the planes to cross the airspaces and launch air raids from their airports. They also welcome the huge armies to use their lands to attack Iraq. Here are the planes which take off from Saudi Arabian airports. And here are the huge armies advancing from the Kuwaiti territories. And here is Qatar, hosting the campaign headquarters, and here is Bahrain, hosting the Fifth Fleet command. And here is Egypt, where warships cross its Suez Canal. And here is Yemen, supplying the warships of the crusaders. And here is Jordan, where the crusaders' troops are present, and where the Patriot missiles battery are erected to protect Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: Now, there is no clear indication when this was actually recorded. There is no reference there to those attacks in Saudi Arabia and Morocco. It does, obviously, refer to the war in Iraq. It appears to refer to it in a way that the war in Iraq is over. So perhaps recorded in the last month or so, but perhaps not recorded in the last couple of weeks.

PHILLIPS: You mention Iraq. We also heard Iraq mentioned in that part of the interview. Let's listen to another clip and talk about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): ... Iraqi people, we had defeated the crusaders several times before. We have managed to evict them out of our land and our holy places. Know that you are not alone in this battle. For your brethren, the mujahideen, are chasing your enemies. The mujahideen in Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya, and in the heart of America and the West are punishing severely these crusaders. And may the next days, convey to you, God willing, good news.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Now, what do you make about that? Is that specific enough, or still a little bit vague?

ROBERTSON: It is very vague. It definitely warns of another attack, but was this tape supposed to have been released before the attack in Saudi Arabia, before the attack in Morocco? That's a possibility. Given the high level of chatter that is being heard and the current threats that are perceived, it, perhaps, does indicate again, and add to that picture that something is about to happen.

It is a call to the Iraqi people that they are not alone in their struggle. Apparently the struggle of some Iraqis to get the United States out of Iraq, and it does -- it does pose that very big question. Does al Qaeda, as it has done in the past, used these type of messages to broadcast to cells OK, now is the go time. Now is the time to attack.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about that just real quickly before you have to move on. The last time a tape was released, the Bali attacks, and then al Zawahiri released another tape right after -- what do you think about a connection?

ROBERTSON: Yes, absolutely. In the past, al Qaeda has released tapes and it has been followed by other attacks. One of the last tapes that Ayman al Zawahiri released talked about -- talked about groups in France and in Germany, and about the attacks that they may make and saying that the doses may be increased.

A few months later, we heard reports of French and British intelligence arresting al Qaeda operatives who were about to use or appeared to be about to use the agent ricin to kill people. So it's an indication that there is warnings in these statements.

PHILLIPS: Nic Robertson, thank you, and by the way, last time we talked, you were in Baghdad. It is nice to have you here in Atlanta with us. It is a pleasure.

ROBERTSON: Thank you. Nice to be here.

PHILLIPS: All right -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Nice to see Nic, but not under these circumstances, of course.

All this is occurring amid the ramping up of Washington's terror alert status. In a moment, we will look at what the government is doing to address the terrorist threat. But right now, let's take a look at what the bad guys, if you will, may be up to. For that, we turn to terrorism expert Jim Walsh. He is the resident scholar at Harvard University, out of Washington today. Jim, good to have you back with us.

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Good to see you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: President, on that aircraft carrier, said al Qaeda is on the run. Well, if they are running, they appear to be gunning. How would you assess it?

WALSH: Well, my guess is he wishes he had that comment back. Clearly, they have some resources. The thing that struck me about the Saudi attack and the Moroccan attack, if, in fact, that is al Qaeda, is they spent a lot of bodies.

They -- when you think about suicide bombing, we think of it in the Palestinian context, Palestine and Israel, and it is a bomber here, a bomber there. They used 10 to 15 people in the Saudi attack, another 10 in the Moroccan attack. Those are people they are not going to get back, they are dead. And so they clearly have a lot of bodies to use, and they clearly have a lot of cash. The raid in Saudi Arabia before the Saudi attack, they netted 800 pounds of explosives, tens of thousands of dollars in cash. So, at least when it comes to finances and bodies, they seem to be doing well.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, let's get -- try to get a sense -- of course, one of the strengths of al Qaeda, from its perspective, is how decentralized it is. In other words, each of these cells can operate as so-called sleeper cells for, perhaps, years and can operate with virtual autonomy. Do you suspect that is what is going on, or given the fact that we have seen what appears to be some synchronicity between these attacks, is somebody calling the shots in a centralized way?

WALSH: Well, it's a good question. It's hard to know, but I think it is certainly likely that al Qaeda has morphed. It has changed its organizational style. Remember in Afghanistan it had a stable territory, and that allowed it to build training bases, to build laboratories to do research and development. It had the collaboration of a government.

It lost that and it necessarily had to change its organizational style so that it was more dispersed. My guess is the cells have more autonomy to carry out independent actions. There must be some coordination, but probably some of that authority has been delegated to the local level, and so you have both things happening at the same time. There is still communication between a dispersed leadership in cells, but there is also autonomy on the part of the cells to freelance and pursue their own objectives.

O'BRIEN: Sort of that note, al-Zawahiri, the tape purported to be him. What does your gut tell you? Is that genuine? Is it the real article, or is he perhaps dead in a mountain somewhere in northern Afghanistan?

WALSH: Hard to know, but it seems to me the more important question is not only who is the identity of the speaker, but what is the significance of the tape? And I take Nic's earlier point as dead on. There is a history of al Qaeda issuing messages, and that being followed by attacks, and goes all the way back to 9/11. Now, that correlation isn't perfect, it isn't one for one, but it is very strong. So you take the fact that usually an announcement is followed by an attack, and you get the recent attacks in Saudi and Morocco, and I think that should give reason for pause.

O'BRIEN: And finally, with not much time left, do you think it is all but inevitable that there will be an attempt, at least, in the United States on the near-term horizon?

WALSH: Well, Miles, the short answer is yes, there will be an attempt in the United States. Is it in the near term, the intermediate term? Hard for me to say. It is anybody's guess, but clearly that is their ambition, and we should expect that they are going to try at some point.

O'BRIEN: Terrorism expert Jim Walsh, always appreciate your insights. Thanks very much. WALSH: Thank you, Miles.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired May 21, 2003 - 13:01   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it all sounds so familiar: terrorists armed with knives and a possible plot to hijack a plane and fly it into a building, and it may have been foiled at the very last minute at an airport in Saudi Arabia. CNN's Sheila MacVicar standing by in Riyadh to tell us more about that and about some other concerns.
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Miles, the more we hear about what might have happened at Jeddah airport on Monday evening, the, frankly, more frightening story becomes.

It goes this way: three men show up at the airport, one of them begins to act in kind of an odd manner. He is spotted by a Saudi security official. They look at the three of them traveling together, and realize that one of the men is on the Saudi wanted list. It is not clear at this point if they have already cleared security or if they are just about to check in.

At any rate, they are pulled over, they are searched, and Saudi officials find knives on them and documents that are being described to CNN as a kind of last will and testament.

Now, that will sound pretty familiar to investigators of 9/11. You may remember, Miles, that investigators found that those 9/11 hijackers had similar documents with them, or in their luggage after they hijacked those planes.

Now, a Saudi security source tells CNN that Saudi officials have learned that the plan was to hijack that Saudia flight -- that is the Saudi national airlines -- and fly the building into -- fly the plane, rather, into a building in downtown Jeddah.

Now, we're told Saudi authorities believe that these three men are members of al Qaeda, and we are also told that they believe these three men are members of the same cell that carried out the bombings last week here in Riyadh.

We are told they don't think they participated in these bombings, but they should have a lot of information, and that should give the Saudi authorities the break they need. The investigation into those bombings has been progressing very slowly, at least in public, and this may give the Saudi authorities the break they need to really move ahead at the time of heightened security here in Saudi Arabia -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: It is very early on in this investigation, but what do we know about the possible target here? Was the building that they were after in any way linked to Western interests? MACVICAR: I have been given the name of the building. I have also been asked, for the time being, not to report the name of that building. What I can tell you is that the building is a significant structure on the Jeddah horizon. I can also tell you that the building is -- the building is Saudi-owned, and the company that it represents is also Saudi-owned.

Again, the plane that we were talking about, the hijackers -- or would-be hijackers wanted to take over was a Saudia flight, that is the Saudi national airline.

One of the questions over the course of the last ten days or so has been, what's the purpose, what's the message has been behind last week's attacks? Was it something that was aimed simply at Westerners, or was it something, as many people here think, aimed at larger goals, of, perhaps, of challenging and damaging the Saudi government.

When you look at the bombings last week, they may have struck compounds in which Westerners resided, but they also killed and injured many Saudis and other Arabs, and many of those compounds house Westerners that provide essential services to things like the Royal Saudi Air Force or the Saudi National Guard.

So a real feeling here is that there is -- that these cells are operating as a real challenge to Saudi Arabia's government. Now, we're at a state of heightened alert, you will have heard that, Miles. The U.S., British and Germany embassies are closed today, will stay closed for a period of time, and that's because of what is described as unspecified but credible information that new terror attacks may be imminent here -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. On that ominous note, unfortunately, we have to leave it. Sheila MacVicar, live from Riyadh. We appreciate your report. That sounds scarier all of the time, as she put it -- Kyra.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: ... apparent call to arms, allegedly from one of Osama bin Laden's top deputies. Egyptian terrorist Ayman al-Zawahiri purportedly calls on Muslims to attack Western interests abroad and predicts that something will happen in the next few days. This is just yet another mysterious audiotape, and CNN's Nic Robertson has given it a careful listen. Let's talk about the authenticity, and let's talk about al-Zawahiri.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We don't know if it is al-Zawahiri. No. 1, the voice is younger -- sounds younger than he is. He is, perhaps, in his mid-50s. The tape has been heavily edited. The accent of the person reading it, though, however, is Egyptian. Ayman al-Zawahiri is an Egyptian, so perhaps that an indication in may, in fact, be him.

What we do know is that this calls -- it is a call to arms for people in the Middle East. It calls on them to attack the interests of the United States, of Great Britain, of Australia, and, for the first time, Norway as well. And it tells the people of that region that while their leaders said that they were opposed to the war on Iraq, they very much went ahead and supported it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Here are the rulers of the Muslims granting airports, bases and facilities, and allowing the ships to cross their territorial waters. And supplying them with fuel and food, and granting permission to the planes to cross the airspaces and launch air raids from their airports. They also welcome the huge armies to use their lands to attack Iraq. Here are the planes which take off from Saudi Arabian airports. And here are the huge armies advancing from the Kuwaiti territories. And here is Qatar, hosting the campaign headquarters, and here is Bahrain, hosting the Fifth Fleet command. And here is Egypt, where warships cross its Suez Canal. And here is Yemen, supplying the warships of the crusaders. And here is Jordan, where the crusaders' troops are present, and where the Patriot missiles battery are erected to protect Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: Now, there is no clear indication when this was actually recorded. There is no reference there to those attacks in Saudi Arabia and Morocco. It does, obviously, refer to the war in Iraq. It appears to refer to it in a way that the war in Iraq is over. So perhaps recorded in the last month or so, but perhaps not recorded in the last couple of weeks.

PHILLIPS: You mention Iraq. We also heard Iraq mentioned in that part of the interview. Let's listen to another clip and talk about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): ... Iraqi people, we had defeated the crusaders several times before. We have managed to evict them out of our land and our holy places. Know that you are not alone in this battle. For your brethren, the mujahideen, are chasing your enemies. The mujahideen in Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya, and in the heart of America and the West are punishing severely these crusaders. And may the next days, convey to you, God willing, good news.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: Now, what do you make about that? Is that specific enough, or still a little bit vague?

ROBERTSON: It is very vague. It definitely warns of another attack, but was this tape supposed to have been released before the attack in Saudi Arabia, before the attack in Morocco? That's a possibility. Given the high level of chatter that is being heard and the current threats that are perceived, it, perhaps, does indicate again, and add to that picture that something is about to happen.

It is a call to the Iraqi people that they are not alone in their struggle. Apparently the struggle of some Iraqis to get the United States out of Iraq, and it does -- it does pose that very big question. Does al Qaeda, as it has done in the past, used these type of messages to broadcast to cells OK, now is the go time. Now is the time to attack.

PHILLIPS: Let's talk about that just real quickly before you have to move on. The last time a tape was released, the Bali attacks, and then al Zawahiri released another tape right after -- what do you think about a connection?

ROBERTSON: Yes, absolutely. In the past, al Qaeda has released tapes and it has been followed by other attacks. One of the last tapes that Ayman al Zawahiri released talked about -- talked about groups in France and in Germany, and about the attacks that they may make and saying that the doses may be increased.

A few months later, we heard reports of French and British intelligence arresting al Qaeda operatives who were about to use or appeared to be about to use the agent ricin to kill people. So it's an indication that there is warnings in these statements.

PHILLIPS: Nic Robertson, thank you, and by the way, last time we talked, you were in Baghdad. It is nice to have you here in Atlanta with us. It is a pleasure.

ROBERTSON: Thank you. Nice to be here.

PHILLIPS: All right -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Nice to see Nic, but not under these circumstances, of course.

All this is occurring amid the ramping up of Washington's terror alert status. In a moment, we will look at what the government is doing to address the terrorist threat. But right now, let's take a look at what the bad guys, if you will, may be up to. For that, we turn to terrorism expert Jim Walsh. He is the resident scholar at Harvard University, out of Washington today. Jim, good to have you back with us.

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Good to see you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: President, on that aircraft carrier, said al Qaeda is on the run. Well, if they are running, they appear to be gunning. How would you assess it?

WALSH: Well, my guess is he wishes he had that comment back. Clearly, they have some resources. The thing that struck me about the Saudi attack and the Moroccan attack, if, in fact, that is al Qaeda, is they spent a lot of bodies.

They -- when you think about suicide bombing, we think of it in the Palestinian context, Palestine and Israel, and it is a bomber here, a bomber there. They used 10 to 15 people in the Saudi attack, another 10 in the Moroccan attack. Those are people they are not going to get back, they are dead. And so they clearly have a lot of bodies to use, and they clearly have a lot of cash. The raid in Saudi Arabia before the Saudi attack, they netted 800 pounds of explosives, tens of thousands of dollars in cash. So, at least when it comes to finances and bodies, they seem to be doing well.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, let's get -- try to get a sense -- of course, one of the strengths of al Qaeda, from its perspective, is how decentralized it is. In other words, each of these cells can operate as so-called sleeper cells for, perhaps, years and can operate with virtual autonomy. Do you suspect that is what is going on, or given the fact that we have seen what appears to be some synchronicity between these attacks, is somebody calling the shots in a centralized way?

WALSH: Well, it's a good question. It's hard to know, but I think it is certainly likely that al Qaeda has morphed. It has changed its organizational style. Remember in Afghanistan it had a stable territory, and that allowed it to build training bases, to build laboratories to do research and development. It had the collaboration of a government.

It lost that and it necessarily had to change its organizational style so that it was more dispersed. My guess is the cells have more autonomy to carry out independent actions. There must be some coordination, but probably some of that authority has been delegated to the local level, and so you have both things happening at the same time. There is still communication between a dispersed leadership in cells, but there is also autonomy on the part of the cells to freelance and pursue their own objectives.

O'BRIEN: Sort of that note, al-Zawahiri, the tape purported to be him. What does your gut tell you? Is that genuine? Is it the real article, or is he perhaps dead in a mountain somewhere in northern Afghanistan?

WALSH: Hard to know, but it seems to me the more important question is not only who is the identity of the speaker, but what is the significance of the tape? And I take Nic's earlier point as dead on. There is a history of al Qaeda issuing messages, and that being followed by attacks, and goes all the way back to 9/11. Now, that correlation isn't perfect, it isn't one for one, but it is very strong. So you take the fact that usually an announcement is followed by an attack, and you get the recent attacks in Saudi and Morocco, and I think that should give reason for pause.

O'BRIEN: And finally, with not much time left, do you think it is all but inevitable that there will be an attempt, at least, in the United States on the near-term horizon?

WALSH: Well, Miles, the short answer is yes, there will be an attempt in the United States. Is it in the near term, the intermediate term? Hard for me to say. It is anybody's guess, but clearly that is their ambition, and we should expect that they are going to try at some point.

O'BRIEN: Terrorism expert Jim Walsh, always appreciate your insights. Thanks very much. WALSH: Thank you, Miles.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com