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Can the Road Map Survive?; Interview With George Mitchell
Aired June 12, 2003 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Well, try as President Bush might to salvage the road map to peace, there is no letup today in bloodshed in the Middle East. Israeli authorities believe Palestinian gunmen were behind the shooting death of an Israeli man in the West Bank. And Israel launched a new attack on Hamas leaders in Gaza, killing a senior member of the Islamic militant group and six others.
It was Israel's third strike against Hamas in 24 hours. And it came a day after a Hamas suicide bomb attack in Jerusalem.
What is the next step for the Bush administration? Here now, our senior White House correspondent, John King -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Judy, Secretary of State Powell today says he called region in the Arab world, across the Arab world, urging them to "come down hard on Hamas," which, of course, receives political and financial support from some nations within the Arab world. Secretary Powell says, though, that the president is determined despite the bloodshed of the past 72 hours to persevere.
And as the administration works behind the scenes on diplomacy, it also is publicly working to reject criticism. Some Democrats, even some Republicans criticizing the president for taking Israel to task the other day. The President criticized the Israeli government for launching that assassination attempt on a key Hamas leader. Some are saying Mr. Bush imposing a double standard, asking how can he go on battle against al Qaeda around the world and say Ariel Sharon cannot fight the terrorists who are attacking Israel?
Out in Los Angeles today, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice says in no way was the president saying terrorists in the Middle East get a pass.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: There is not going to be any pass for any Palestinian leadership on fighting terror. It is absolutely the case that this president and this United States government believe that terror, wherever it is found, wherever it is practiced, has got to be rooted out and destroyed. And so there will be no pass on that issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Implicit in the Rice speech, however, was that Israel should not be taking unilateral military actions against terrorists. She said at the Middle East summit with President Bush in Jordan last week that the Israelis and the Palestinians promised to work together as partners to fight terrorism. Condoleezza Rice saying that should be the approach as both the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government try to root out Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups.
Judy, no phone calls from the president as yet. Some are asking why not more presidential involvement. Senior aides are saying, what could the president do right now in terms of diplomacy? The president's new enjoy, Ambassador John Wolf, is supposed to be on the ground in the region as early as Sunday, and Secretary of State Powell will be heading to the region in 10 days to meet with other members of the so-called quartet: the United Nations, the European Union and Russia. The other partners, of course, coming up with what is now called "the road map to peace," a document that seems in trouble at the moment.
WOODRUFF: But John, does that in any way contradict the president's promise that he was going to stay committed to this process and see it through?
KING: White House officials insist no. And they say the president will be involved, but that he also wants his top deputy, Secretary Powell and Condoleezza Rice chief among them, involved as well. There are some in the region, especially from the Palestinian leadership, saying the president must be involved here in the United States.
One official put it his way at the White House. He says there is a do-something crowd, saying, you must do something. The official said back in the middle of all this violence, do what? So they say the president will be involved, they just don't think he needs to be involved on a daily, hourly basis.
WOODRUFF: All right. John King joining us today from the Washington studio. Thanks very much.
Let's talk more about the crisis in the Middle East now with a former peace negotiator and former Senate Majority Leader, George Mitchell. Senator Mitchell, is the president right, in effect, to say, I'm going to let others handle this directly right now?
GEORGE MITCHELL, FMR. MIDDLE EAST ENVOY: Well, he's been directly involved. He's made a commitment, and I don't think it's a fair test of whether he's personally involved whether he makes a phone call every day. I think the perseverance is there, the commitment is there, and the personal effort will be there when the time is appropriate.
WOODRUFF: Is the White House right when it says that Hamas is now the major obstacle in the peace process?
MITCHELL: Well, it's certainly part of the problem. A major part of the problem. Their policy is that Israel must be destroyed. That's not going to happen. It's a fantasy. And the pursuit of that fantasy will only be suffering to both sides. So it is a major part of the problem. There are many other aspects to the problem as well.
WOODRUFF: But what I'm asking is, is the White House right to single out Hamas as the major obstacle?
MITCHELL: Well, it's clearly the largest and most effective organization pursuing that course of action. You have Islamic Jihad, you have a few others. But there's a broader difficulty on the Palestinian side. And that is, of course, that the prime minister, Abbas, was not elected.
He is basically the American and the Israeli choice. He does not have broad support among the Palestinian people. And if he can't produce any tangible and visible improvement in their lives to broaden his base of support, then he's simply not going to be able to crack down on Hamas or the other organizations.
He said -- he made a very strong statement at the summit, so strong, in fact, that he was criticized by many Palestinians for it. It apparently was drafted by the United States. But his capacity to carry through on that will depend upon his being able to gain some support among Palestinian people. And so far that's obviously been cast in doubt.
WOODRUFF: And do you believe that he ultimately will be able to do that?
MITCHELL: Well, it depends on what happens. Obviously, one can't predict precisely the events of the future, but I don't think he will unless he is able to demonstrate an ability to produce some tangible improvement in the lives of the ordinary people among the Palestinians. That, I think, is the greatest challenge that he faces.
He has to establish a base in order to be able to crack down effectively in our position of Hamas. Judy, the American people, and many in the West, regard Hamas solely as a terrorist organization and wonder how they can have so much support among the Palestinian people. But, in fact, of course, it's a political party.
They operate social service activity, health clinics, educational facilities. It has a much broader base of support among the Palestinian people than solely based upon their terror activities. And that's why it's going to be difficult for Abbas to engage in this crackdown until he himself has some broader base of support among the Palestinian people.
WOODRUFF: Well, that being the case, what's it going to take?
MITCHELL: It's going to take a reduction in violence, a period of time in which politically it is on both sides, can move toward the kind of negotiating process that is essential to achieve the two-state solution. It's going to take a 100 percent effort by the Palestinian Authority to crack down on Hamas and the other organizations. They don't have control. Two years ago, when our commission in the Middle East drafted its report, we were told by the government of Israel that they knew that Arafat and the PLO did not have complete control, but they wanted a 100 percent effort to crack down.
Abbas now argues there is much less control than Arafat ever had. But they're still lacking that 100 percent effort. And so I think you'll have to see the steps set forth in the road map begin to take hold, to get some traction in terms of peace, a subsiding of violence, a recognition by both sides that the current course doesn't bring them what they want.
The Palestinians want a state. Each suicide bomb attack delays that prospect rather than advances it. The Israelis want security. They're not going to get security so long as they have 3.5 million Palestinians in the circumstance that they're now in. So I think both have to recognize that the current course of action isn't going to bring them what they want.
WOODRUFF: Well, it couldn't look any more complicated than it does right now. Senator George Mitchell...
MITCHELL: Well, Judy, it does look complicated, but we can't lose hope, and we have to persevere.
WOODRUFF: Senator George Mitchell, as always, thank you for helping us understand the situation. Thank you very much. It's good to see you, as always. We appreciate it.
MITCHELL: Thank you, Judy.
WOODRUFF: Well the U.S. administrator of Iraq, Paul Bremer, told the Congress today that coalition forces still face political sabotage from Saddam Hussein. The Pentagon says that an apache attack helicopter was shot down by hostile fire today during a raid on an extremist camp in western Iraq.
The two-crew members are safe and were not injured. Iraqi political figure Ahmed Chalabi says he believed that Saddam Hussein was behind the attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AHMED CHALABI, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: That is a major military action today. And I believe that a U.S. apache helicopter was shot down by forces who are working under Saddam's control. It is not useful to deny that Saddam is coordinating these activities.
I believe he is. There are leaflets distributed with his picture and with his name and slogans supporting him. So he is active.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: Chalabi had a closed meeting with House members today.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 12, 2003 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Well, try as President Bush might to salvage the road map to peace, there is no letup today in bloodshed in the Middle East. Israeli authorities believe Palestinian gunmen were behind the shooting death of an Israeli man in the West Bank. And Israel launched a new attack on Hamas leaders in Gaza, killing a senior member of the Islamic militant group and six others.
It was Israel's third strike against Hamas in 24 hours. And it came a day after a Hamas suicide bomb attack in Jerusalem.
What is the next step for the Bush administration? Here now, our senior White House correspondent, John King -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Judy, Secretary of State Powell today says he called region in the Arab world, across the Arab world, urging them to "come down hard on Hamas," which, of course, receives political and financial support from some nations within the Arab world. Secretary Powell says, though, that the president is determined despite the bloodshed of the past 72 hours to persevere.
And as the administration works behind the scenes on diplomacy, it also is publicly working to reject criticism. Some Democrats, even some Republicans criticizing the president for taking Israel to task the other day. The President criticized the Israeli government for launching that assassination attempt on a key Hamas leader. Some are saying Mr. Bush imposing a double standard, asking how can he go on battle against al Qaeda around the world and say Ariel Sharon cannot fight the terrorists who are attacking Israel?
Out in Los Angeles today, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice says in no way was the president saying terrorists in the Middle East get a pass.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: There is not going to be any pass for any Palestinian leadership on fighting terror. It is absolutely the case that this president and this United States government believe that terror, wherever it is found, wherever it is practiced, has got to be rooted out and destroyed. And so there will be no pass on that issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Implicit in the Rice speech, however, was that Israel should not be taking unilateral military actions against terrorists. She said at the Middle East summit with President Bush in Jordan last week that the Israelis and the Palestinians promised to work together as partners to fight terrorism. Condoleezza Rice saying that should be the approach as both the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government try to root out Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups.
Judy, no phone calls from the president as yet. Some are asking why not more presidential involvement. Senior aides are saying, what could the president do right now in terms of diplomacy? The president's new enjoy, Ambassador John Wolf, is supposed to be on the ground in the region as early as Sunday, and Secretary of State Powell will be heading to the region in 10 days to meet with other members of the so-called quartet: the United Nations, the European Union and Russia. The other partners, of course, coming up with what is now called "the road map to peace," a document that seems in trouble at the moment.
WOODRUFF: But John, does that in any way contradict the president's promise that he was going to stay committed to this process and see it through?
KING: White House officials insist no. And they say the president will be involved, but that he also wants his top deputy, Secretary Powell and Condoleezza Rice chief among them, involved as well. There are some in the region, especially from the Palestinian leadership, saying the president must be involved here in the United States.
One official put it his way at the White House. He says there is a do-something crowd, saying, you must do something. The official said back in the middle of all this violence, do what? So they say the president will be involved, they just don't think he needs to be involved on a daily, hourly basis.
WOODRUFF: All right. John King joining us today from the Washington studio. Thanks very much.
Let's talk more about the crisis in the Middle East now with a former peace negotiator and former Senate Majority Leader, George Mitchell. Senator Mitchell, is the president right, in effect, to say, I'm going to let others handle this directly right now?
GEORGE MITCHELL, FMR. MIDDLE EAST ENVOY: Well, he's been directly involved. He's made a commitment, and I don't think it's a fair test of whether he's personally involved whether he makes a phone call every day. I think the perseverance is there, the commitment is there, and the personal effort will be there when the time is appropriate.
WOODRUFF: Is the White House right when it says that Hamas is now the major obstacle in the peace process?
MITCHELL: Well, it's certainly part of the problem. A major part of the problem. Their policy is that Israel must be destroyed. That's not going to happen. It's a fantasy. And the pursuit of that fantasy will only be suffering to both sides. So it is a major part of the problem. There are many other aspects to the problem as well.
WOODRUFF: But what I'm asking is, is the White House right to single out Hamas as the major obstacle?
MITCHELL: Well, it's clearly the largest and most effective organization pursuing that course of action. You have Islamic Jihad, you have a few others. But there's a broader difficulty on the Palestinian side. And that is, of course, that the prime minister, Abbas, was not elected.
He is basically the American and the Israeli choice. He does not have broad support among the Palestinian people. And if he can't produce any tangible and visible improvement in their lives to broaden his base of support, then he's simply not going to be able to crack down on Hamas or the other organizations.
He said -- he made a very strong statement at the summit, so strong, in fact, that he was criticized by many Palestinians for it. It apparently was drafted by the United States. But his capacity to carry through on that will depend upon his being able to gain some support among Palestinian people. And so far that's obviously been cast in doubt.
WOODRUFF: And do you believe that he ultimately will be able to do that?
MITCHELL: Well, it depends on what happens. Obviously, one can't predict precisely the events of the future, but I don't think he will unless he is able to demonstrate an ability to produce some tangible improvement in the lives of the ordinary people among the Palestinians. That, I think, is the greatest challenge that he faces.
He has to establish a base in order to be able to crack down effectively in our position of Hamas. Judy, the American people, and many in the West, regard Hamas solely as a terrorist organization and wonder how they can have so much support among the Palestinian people. But, in fact, of course, it's a political party.
They operate social service activity, health clinics, educational facilities. It has a much broader base of support among the Palestinian people than solely based upon their terror activities. And that's why it's going to be difficult for Abbas to engage in this crackdown until he himself has some broader base of support among the Palestinian people.
WOODRUFF: Well, that being the case, what's it going to take?
MITCHELL: It's going to take a reduction in violence, a period of time in which politically it is on both sides, can move toward the kind of negotiating process that is essential to achieve the two-state solution. It's going to take a 100 percent effort by the Palestinian Authority to crack down on Hamas and the other organizations. They don't have control. Two years ago, when our commission in the Middle East drafted its report, we were told by the government of Israel that they knew that Arafat and the PLO did not have complete control, but they wanted a 100 percent effort to crack down.
Abbas now argues there is much less control than Arafat ever had. But they're still lacking that 100 percent effort. And so I think you'll have to see the steps set forth in the road map begin to take hold, to get some traction in terms of peace, a subsiding of violence, a recognition by both sides that the current course doesn't bring them what they want.
The Palestinians want a state. Each suicide bomb attack delays that prospect rather than advances it. The Israelis want security. They're not going to get security so long as they have 3.5 million Palestinians in the circumstance that they're now in. So I think both have to recognize that the current course of action isn't going to bring them what they want.
WOODRUFF: Well, it couldn't look any more complicated than it does right now. Senator George Mitchell...
MITCHELL: Well, Judy, it does look complicated, but we can't lose hope, and we have to persevere.
WOODRUFF: Senator George Mitchell, as always, thank you for helping us understand the situation. Thank you very much. It's good to see you, as always. We appreciate it.
MITCHELL: Thank you, Judy.
WOODRUFF: Well the U.S. administrator of Iraq, Paul Bremer, told the Congress today that coalition forces still face political sabotage from Saddam Hussein. The Pentagon says that an apache attack helicopter was shot down by hostile fire today during a raid on an extremist camp in western Iraq.
The two-crew members are safe and were not injured. Iraqi political figure Ahmed Chalabi says he believed that Saddam Hussein was behind the attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AHMED CHALABI, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: That is a major military action today. And I believe that a U.S. apache helicopter was shot down by forces who are working under Saddam's control. It is not useful to deny that Saddam is coordinating these activities.
I believe he is. There are leaflets distributed with his picture and with his name and slogans supporting him. So he is active.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: Chalabi had a closed meeting with House members today.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
