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Frank Keating Resigns From Oversight Board

Aired June 17, 2003 - 15:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Former Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating is standing by his comments, comparing evasive Catholic church hierarchy to the Mafia. Keating resigned yesterday from the National Review Group, a lay group overseeing the Catholic church's reforms in the wake of the sex abuse scandal. And he headed that group.
In his parting letter, Keating called his comments deadly accurate. He says he makes no apology. But, of course, he ruffled some feathers. Did he go too far?

Joining me now to talk about that, David Clohessy, the director of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, SNAP. And a National Review Board member, New York attorney Pamela Hayes.

Pam Hayes, let me begin with you. First of all, the comment referring to stonewalling Catholic hierarchy as having the same sort of code of contact as (UNINTELLIGIBLE), hide and suppress, essentially -- to act like (UNINTELLIGIBLE), to hide and suppress, I think very unhealthy he said. What do you think of that comment?

PAMELA HAYES, NATIONAL BISHOPS REVIEW BOARD: I think it was over the top. I think it painted too broad a picture. And I thought it was pretty outrageous.

O'BRIEN: Really? OK. So...

HAYES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ... do you support the fact that he stepped down?

HAYES: You know, Frank made a decision for himself. He had items that he had to deal with. He thought it would be best that he stepped down. And I'm happy that we're moving on.

The whole point that I had any contention about was whether this particular statement that he made overshadowed the work of the board. And the board has done an incredible amount of things.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about that in a sec, because I do want to talk where the Catholic church is now with the help of that board. But I want to go to David and ask you about the comment, first of all. Is Frank Keating dead on accurate, as he suggests? He makes no apologies.

DAVID CLOHESSY, SURVIVORS NETWORK OF THOSE ABUSED BY PRIESTS: Well, here is a man, a devout Catholic, a former prosecutor, a former FBI agent, chosen by the bishops themselves to clean up this mess. And he's been deeply immersed in it for the last year. So if he says there are Catholic bishops still covering up and stonewalling prosecutors, I think we ought to listen to him.

O'BRIEN: All right. So is this a loss having him resign from that leadership post on the lay committee?

CLOHESSY: I think it is. I think it will cause a lot more lay Catholics and certainly a lot more victims to be very skeptical about the bishop's intentions.

They promised us last summer that this was going to be an independent body, they weren't going to meddle, they weren't going to try to interfere. But certainly it looks I think to a lot of observers now that in fact the bishops are trying to rein in this committee. I think they've got a very, very tough job ahead.

O'BRIEN: Pam, it doesn't look very independent, does it?

HAYES: Well, it doesn't look independent to David, but I know it is, in fact, independent. We have a job to do which is outlined in the charter, which we have been doing. Just because one doesn't choose to, you know, amplify things by calling people names, I think that does a disservice.

Whether Frank had that opinion, that is his opinion. But it remains to be seen. We have certain mechanisms in place that, at the end of those mechanisms, when they are due, when the studies have presented, if, in fact, somebody was still stalling or not in compliance at the due date, then I think you might be able to make a statement.

But before the actual work has been completed to make that type of statement, I think gives a misimpression when, in fact, most of the bishops had been cooperating. Now...

O'BRIEN: All right. David, I want to check Pam on that one point. Where do things stand right now in this ongoing effort to try and rectify what is an awful scandal for the U.S. Catholic church? Something that really is disastrous for the faithful.

CLOHESSY: Well, I think we're still very much in the beginning stages. The review board is just starting these research projects. And the fact that some bishops -- I think one-third of the bishops have not responded. The fact that there is resistance at this early stage, this information-gathering stage, I think it doesn't bode well for the next phase, which is bishops actually changing their behavior and responding more sensitively and more pastorally.

O'BRIEN: Pam, if they're stonewalling now, what optimism can we have that things will improve?

HAYES: I don't think David's information is accurate. You can't say that one third of the people are stalling. I don't know, it can be a fact that one third of the bishops are stalling.

My information is -- and I'm on the committee; I'm dealing with the people who are doing this project -- is that the vast majority of people are doing what they are -- been asked. You have to wait until the deadline to find out who didn't submit what and then you'll be able to make a statement.

O'BRIEN: All right. David, is it a hasty judgment then perhaps? Are you not giving the board enough opportunity here?

CLOHESSY: You know, I would like to be patient and give the board and the bishops all kind of opportunities. But we have to remember, we're talking about the safety of children here.

And I think we also have to look at the historic track record. For decades bishops have been stonewalling. And I think it's naive to think that suddenly there was a radical transformation in the entire clerical culture and that now suddenly bishops are being open and transparent. We in the Survivors Network have certainly not seen that.

O'BRIEN: Pam, the church is by no means a democracy. How can we anticipate any change in that regard, when it is run in a very hierarchical way?

HAYES: OK. I think the first thing you have to do, Miles, is you have to look at the way certain things are being done. The bishops set out to implement certain policies that they hadn't implemented over any number of years.

And I agree with David that the history of the bishops, you know, previous to Dallas (ph) show that they hadn't actually done anything. Then came last year. They made some suggestions. They made policies.

We now have an office of child and youth protection that is making sure that these things doesn't happen. You can't get a culture of some 20, 30, 40 years in order in about seven months. You just can't do it.

O'BRIEN: All right.

HAYES: So you have to move forward and give people a chance. And then, after working it through, then you ask the question.

O'BRIEN: All right. David, just a quick final word to balance it out here. We're really out of time. But if you can just give us a sense, do you really feel that children are safer now in the Catholic church?

CLOHESSY: Well, they are, largely because I think more parents are being more careful. They're believing their children when they disclose abuse. They're supporting their children.

And, I think because of secular authorities, the police and the prosecutors, the lawmakers, the judges. They're beginning to treat abuse by clerics just like abuse by any other criminal. And that's the good news. That's the positive growth that we in SNAP have seen over the last year.

O'BRIEN: All right. We tried to get an awful lot in a short period of time. I appreciate your forbearance on that.

David Clohessy and Pamela Hayes, thank you both very much for being with us.

CLOHESSY: Thank you.

HAYES: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 17, 2003 - 15:36   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Former Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating is standing by his comments, comparing evasive Catholic church hierarchy to the Mafia. Keating resigned yesterday from the National Review Group, a lay group overseeing the Catholic church's reforms in the wake of the sex abuse scandal. And he headed that group.
In his parting letter, Keating called his comments deadly accurate. He says he makes no apology. But, of course, he ruffled some feathers. Did he go too far?

Joining me now to talk about that, David Clohessy, the director of the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, SNAP. And a National Review Board member, New York attorney Pamela Hayes.

Pam Hayes, let me begin with you. First of all, the comment referring to stonewalling Catholic hierarchy as having the same sort of code of contact as (UNINTELLIGIBLE), hide and suppress, essentially -- to act like (UNINTELLIGIBLE), to hide and suppress, I think very unhealthy he said. What do you think of that comment?

PAMELA HAYES, NATIONAL BISHOPS REVIEW BOARD: I think it was over the top. I think it painted too broad a picture. And I thought it was pretty outrageous.

O'BRIEN: Really? OK. So...

HAYES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ... do you support the fact that he stepped down?

HAYES: You know, Frank made a decision for himself. He had items that he had to deal with. He thought it would be best that he stepped down. And I'm happy that we're moving on.

The whole point that I had any contention about was whether this particular statement that he made overshadowed the work of the board. And the board has done an incredible amount of things.

O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about that in a sec, because I do want to talk where the Catholic church is now with the help of that board. But I want to go to David and ask you about the comment, first of all. Is Frank Keating dead on accurate, as he suggests? He makes no apologies.

DAVID CLOHESSY, SURVIVORS NETWORK OF THOSE ABUSED BY PRIESTS: Well, here is a man, a devout Catholic, a former prosecutor, a former FBI agent, chosen by the bishops themselves to clean up this mess. And he's been deeply immersed in it for the last year. So if he says there are Catholic bishops still covering up and stonewalling prosecutors, I think we ought to listen to him.

O'BRIEN: All right. So is this a loss having him resign from that leadership post on the lay committee?

CLOHESSY: I think it is. I think it will cause a lot more lay Catholics and certainly a lot more victims to be very skeptical about the bishop's intentions.

They promised us last summer that this was going to be an independent body, they weren't going to meddle, they weren't going to try to interfere. But certainly it looks I think to a lot of observers now that in fact the bishops are trying to rein in this committee. I think they've got a very, very tough job ahead.

O'BRIEN: Pam, it doesn't look very independent, does it?

HAYES: Well, it doesn't look independent to David, but I know it is, in fact, independent. We have a job to do which is outlined in the charter, which we have been doing. Just because one doesn't choose to, you know, amplify things by calling people names, I think that does a disservice.

Whether Frank had that opinion, that is his opinion. But it remains to be seen. We have certain mechanisms in place that, at the end of those mechanisms, when they are due, when the studies have presented, if, in fact, somebody was still stalling or not in compliance at the due date, then I think you might be able to make a statement.

But before the actual work has been completed to make that type of statement, I think gives a misimpression when, in fact, most of the bishops had been cooperating. Now...

O'BRIEN: All right. David, I want to check Pam on that one point. Where do things stand right now in this ongoing effort to try and rectify what is an awful scandal for the U.S. Catholic church? Something that really is disastrous for the faithful.

CLOHESSY: Well, I think we're still very much in the beginning stages. The review board is just starting these research projects. And the fact that some bishops -- I think one-third of the bishops have not responded. The fact that there is resistance at this early stage, this information-gathering stage, I think it doesn't bode well for the next phase, which is bishops actually changing their behavior and responding more sensitively and more pastorally.

O'BRIEN: Pam, if they're stonewalling now, what optimism can we have that things will improve?

HAYES: I don't think David's information is accurate. You can't say that one third of the people are stalling. I don't know, it can be a fact that one third of the bishops are stalling.

My information is -- and I'm on the committee; I'm dealing with the people who are doing this project -- is that the vast majority of people are doing what they are -- been asked. You have to wait until the deadline to find out who didn't submit what and then you'll be able to make a statement.

O'BRIEN: All right. David, is it a hasty judgment then perhaps? Are you not giving the board enough opportunity here?

CLOHESSY: You know, I would like to be patient and give the board and the bishops all kind of opportunities. But we have to remember, we're talking about the safety of children here.

And I think we also have to look at the historic track record. For decades bishops have been stonewalling. And I think it's naive to think that suddenly there was a radical transformation in the entire clerical culture and that now suddenly bishops are being open and transparent. We in the Survivors Network have certainly not seen that.

O'BRIEN: Pam, the church is by no means a democracy. How can we anticipate any change in that regard, when it is run in a very hierarchical way?

HAYES: OK. I think the first thing you have to do, Miles, is you have to look at the way certain things are being done. The bishops set out to implement certain policies that they hadn't implemented over any number of years.

And I agree with David that the history of the bishops, you know, previous to Dallas (ph) show that they hadn't actually done anything. Then came last year. They made some suggestions. They made policies.

We now have an office of child and youth protection that is making sure that these things doesn't happen. You can't get a culture of some 20, 30, 40 years in order in about seven months. You just can't do it.

O'BRIEN: All right.

HAYES: So you have to move forward and give people a chance. And then, after working it through, then you ask the question.

O'BRIEN: All right. David, just a quick final word to balance it out here. We're really out of time. But if you can just give us a sense, do you really feel that children are safer now in the Catholic church?

CLOHESSY: Well, they are, largely because I think more parents are being more careful. They're believing their children when they disclose abuse. They're supporting their children.

And, I think because of secular authorities, the police and the prosecutors, the lawmakers, the judges. They're beginning to treat abuse by clerics just like abuse by any other criminal. And that's the good news. That's the positive growth that we in SNAP have seen over the last year.

O'BRIEN: All right. We tried to get an awful lot in a short period of time. I appreciate your forbearance on that.

David Clohessy and Pamela Hayes, thank you both very much for being with us.

CLOHESSY: Thank you.

HAYES: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com