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Interview With Sens. Byron Dorgan, John Sununu
Aired June 19, 2003 - 15:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE SNOW, CNN ANCHOR: The Senate Commerce Committee today voted to overturn parts of a controversial decision by the Federal Communications Commission dealing with limits on media ownership. The bill would roll back the national ownership limit so a company could own TV stations reaching only 35 percent of U.S. households instead of 45 percent. On June 2, the Republican-controlled FCC relaxed the tougher rules that were created to promote diversity of opinion and prevent a few big companies from controlling what people see, hear and read.
Joining us on Capitol Hill with their take on today's vote, two members of the Commerce Committee, Democrat Byron Dorgan of North Dakota and Republican John Sununu of New Hampshire.
Thank you both, gentlemen, for being here.
Senator Dorgan, let me start with you. The FCC has reportedly been flooded with e-mail, with phone calls, people saying they don't like these new rules. Explain to us what you did in the Senate Commerce Committee today to try to fix the rules, if you will.
SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: Well, we rolled back those rules, both with respect to the national cap on television stations, and their reach and also cross-ownership between newspapers and television stations.
Let me just say that the FCC, with their rules, would have allowed the same company, in large cities, the biggest cities, to own the newspaper -- the dominant newspaper -- three television stations, eight radio stations and the cable system. I just don't think that's in the public interest, and I don't think it's moving in the right direction.
Already in radio and television, since the '96 act, which changed the limits, we've seen this orgy of mergers and acquisitions. And what the Senate Commerce Committee did today is to say to the FCC, No, you have to roll these back.
SNOW: Senator Sununu, some of your Republican colleagues actually agree with Senator Dorgan -- roll back the rule giving the media giants the right to own 45 percent of households with their TV stations. Why don't you agree with your Republican colleagues on this?
SEN. JOHN SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, among those Republican colleagues were some that wrote the 35 percent standard in the first place, and the reason the FCC had to rule is because the courts effectively threw out that limit. The court said, Look, 35 percent, that doesn't, in and of itself, uphold the principles of localism, diversity, competition that we think you should be working toward. It went back to the FCC, and the FCC said, You're right, we can't justify 35 percent. We don't want to get rid of it, but we'll loosen it a little to 45 percent and see if we can continue to protect those principals of localism, competition and diversity.
This was a broad rule. But it was one that was grounded in those principals. That's the FCC's mission, and I think they did a good job of collecting information and data and making the best decision they could.
SNOW: Do you not worry, though, Senator Sununu, about competition, about the rights -- freedom of speech? A lot of the critics of this rule have said, even the NRA has said this is a bad idea because you end up with media conglomerates, huge companies controlling everything.
SUNUNU: When I was growing up in the 1970s, three companies controlled the three major networks that 90 percent of the viewers watched. Today, even by the most aggressive measurement, it's five companies controlling 12 channels that only about 75 percent of the viewers watch.
Moreover, 85 percent of the country has cable TV, well over 50 or 100 channels. That's a lot of voices. That's a lot of diversity. It's a lot of opportunity, including local cable access, public broadcasting, and not to mention the Internet. So the argument that we have fewer voices today, fewer opportunities to gather news or information, I think, is a little bit misguided.
People would have said there's no way a Fox News Channel could ever get off the ground given the strength and positioning of CNN, no way a new network could get off the ground, given the strength of the big three, and that's proven not to be correct.
SNOW: Senator Dorgan, the FCC did have some public hearings on this, and they would argue they did give people a chance before their decision to have some input. What business does Congress have in now trying to intervene?
DORGAN: Well, the fact is, the FCC did not give the public a chance. They had one pubic hearing, one hearing in Richmond, Virginia. They got 3/4 of a million pieces of mail in this country saying, Don't do this. They did it anyway.
With respect to this issue of diversity, the Internet, cable television, all of that -- the fact is, the dominant pieces in the Internet and on cable are still owned by the same big broadcasting companies. Yes, it's more voices, but coming from the same ventriloquist. It is just not, in my judgment, in the public interest to decide that we ought to, in the big cities of the country, say the newspaper ought to be able to buy three TV stations, eight radio stations and the cable company and call that competition. I don't believe that's competition. SNOW: Are you -- very quickly from both of you, Do you think the committee's -- what the committee did today will really have an impact? Because as I understand it, the House committee, led by Billy Tauzin, a Congressman, he's not going to do what you did today. He's not going to try to reverse the FCC.
SUNUNU: Well, not only that, but it would require a full vote on the floor to pass this legislation. And I think, in previous votes -- I wasn't in the Senate certainly -- it's always been a very close vote on the Senate floor regarding media ownership. So I would expect the passage on the floor of the Senate is no certainty. It doesn't appear to have the votes in the House and I think that the president would support Chairman Michael Powell and the majority he was able to put together for this modification and media ownership rules.
So there are people like Senator Dorgan that would like to roll these back. He's going to work very hard on the issue. He's done a great job from -- for his side so far. But I think it's an uphill battle.
DORGAN: Well, let me just say that, you know, you do this one step at a time. And I hope in the end the big interest lose and the public interest wins. And rolling back the FCC's rules is clearly in the public interest, in my judgment.
SNOW: Senator Byron Dorgan, thank you very much. Senator John Sununu, appreciate you both being with us.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 19, 2003 - 15:12 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE SNOW, CNN ANCHOR: The Senate Commerce Committee today voted to overturn parts of a controversial decision by the Federal Communications Commission dealing with limits on media ownership. The bill would roll back the national ownership limit so a company could own TV stations reaching only 35 percent of U.S. households instead of 45 percent. On June 2, the Republican-controlled FCC relaxed the tougher rules that were created to promote diversity of opinion and prevent a few big companies from controlling what people see, hear and read.
Joining us on Capitol Hill with their take on today's vote, two members of the Commerce Committee, Democrat Byron Dorgan of North Dakota and Republican John Sununu of New Hampshire.
Thank you both, gentlemen, for being here.
Senator Dorgan, let me start with you. The FCC has reportedly been flooded with e-mail, with phone calls, people saying they don't like these new rules. Explain to us what you did in the Senate Commerce Committee today to try to fix the rules, if you will.
SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: Well, we rolled back those rules, both with respect to the national cap on television stations, and their reach and also cross-ownership between newspapers and television stations.
Let me just say that the FCC, with their rules, would have allowed the same company, in large cities, the biggest cities, to own the newspaper -- the dominant newspaper -- three television stations, eight radio stations and the cable system. I just don't think that's in the public interest, and I don't think it's moving in the right direction.
Already in radio and television, since the '96 act, which changed the limits, we've seen this orgy of mergers and acquisitions. And what the Senate Commerce Committee did today is to say to the FCC, No, you have to roll these back.
SNOW: Senator Sununu, some of your Republican colleagues actually agree with Senator Dorgan -- roll back the rule giving the media giants the right to own 45 percent of households with their TV stations. Why don't you agree with your Republican colleagues on this?
SEN. JOHN SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, among those Republican colleagues were some that wrote the 35 percent standard in the first place, and the reason the FCC had to rule is because the courts effectively threw out that limit. The court said, Look, 35 percent, that doesn't, in and of itself, uphold the principles of localism, diversity, competition that we think you should be working toward. It went back to the FCC, and the FCC said, You're right, we can't justify 35 percent. We don't want to get rid of it, but we'll loosen it a little to 45 percent and see if we can continue to protect those principals of localism, competition and diversity.
This was a broad rule. But it was one that was grounded in those principals. That's the FCC's mission, and I think they did a good job of collecting information and data and making the best decision they could.
SNOW: Do you not worry, though, Senator Sununu, about competition, about the rights -- freedom of speech? A lot of the critics of this rule have said, even the NRA has said this is a bad idea because you end up with media conglomerates, huge companies controlling everything.
SUNUNU: When I was growing up in the 1970s, three companies controlled the three major networks that 90 percent of the viewers watched. Today, even by the most aggressive measurement, it's five companies controlling 12 channels that only about 75 percent of the viewers watch.
Moreover, 85 percent of the country has cable TV, well over 50 or 100 channels. That's a lot of voices. That's a lot of diversity. It's a lot of opportunity, including local cable access, public broadcasting, and not to mention the Internet. So the argument that we have fewer voices today, fewer opportunities to gather news or information, I think, is a little bit misguided.
People would have said there's no way a Fox News Channel could ever get off the ground given the strength and positioning of CNN, no way a new network could get off the ground, given the strength of the big three, and that's proven not to be correct.
SNOW: Senator Dorgan, the FCC did have some public hearings on this, and they would argue they did give people a chance before their decision to have some input. What business does Congress have in now trying to intervene?
DORGAN: Well, the fact is, the FCC did not give the public a chance. They had one pubic hearing, one hearing in Richmond, Virginia. They got 3/4 of a million pieces of mail in this country saying, Don't do this. They did it anyway.
With respect to this issue of diversity, the Internet, cable television, all of that -- the fact is, the dominant pieces in the Internet and on cable are still owned by the same big broadcasting companies. Yes, it's more voices, but coming from the same ventriloquist. It is just not, in my judgment, in the public interest to decide that we ought to, in the big cities of the country, say the newspaper ought to be able to buy three TV stations, eight radio stations and the cable company and call that competition. I don't believe that's competition. SNOW: Are you -- very quickly from both of you, Do you think the committee's -- what the committee did today will really have an impact? Because as I understand it, the House committee, led by Billy Tauzin, a Congressman, he's not going to do what you did today. He's not going to try to reverse the FCC.
SUNUNU: Well, not only that, but it would require a full vote on the floor to pass this legislation. And I think, in previous votes -- I wasn't in the Senate certainly -- it's always been a very close vote on the Senate floor regarding media ownership. So I would expect the passage on the floor of the Senate is no certainty. It doesn't appear to have the votes in the House and I think that the president would support Chairman Michael Powell and the majority he was able to put together for this modification and media ownership rules.
So there are people like Senator Dorgan that would like to roll these back. He's going to work very hard on the issue. He's done a great job from -- for his side so far. But I think it's an uphill battle.
DORGAN: Well, let me just say that, you know, you do this one step at a time. And I hope in the end the big interest lose and the public interest wins. And rolling back the FCC's rules is clearly in the public interest, in my judgment.
SNOW: Senator Byron Dorgan, thank you very much. Senator John Sununu, appreciate you both being with us.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
