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Proposal: Marriage Only Union Between Man and Woman

Aired June 30, 2003 - 15:44   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The Supreme Court struck a nerve when it knocked down state laws that bar homosexuality last week.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: From gay rights, the battle has now extended to gay marriage. Many gay people out in the city street across the country yesterday celebrating their annual pride event. Activists are pledging a new fight to get legal recognition for same- sex unions. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist says he backed efforts that would ban gay marriage once and for all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST (R), MAJORITY LEADER: I very much feel that marriage is a sacrament, and that sacrament should extend and can extend to that legal entity of a union between what is traditionally in our western values and been defined as between a man and a woman. So I would support the amendment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLILPS: Two sides of the debate now. Alan Amberg founded Diverse Communications. He joins us from Chicago and supports gay marriage. And Tom Minnery with Focus on the Family. He's with us from Colorado Springs, supports the constitutional ban.

Gentlemen, hello. Tom, let's begin with you. You say the institution of marriage is under attack here. Why?

TOM MINNERY, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: Well, it is. Obviously, it's under attack because of the Supreme Court decision last Thursday dealing with sodomy. That erases a community's ability to say that something about sexuality is not so good. And if that is the case, we're not far away when society is going to be able -- not going to be able to say that there's nothing good that we support in sexuality which, of course, is the institution of marriage.

So we applaud Senator Frist. We look forward to the debate. It's a debate that's already been won by thousands of years of human history.

Look, we're a counseling organization. Every day at Focus on the Family we get thousands of letters, thousands of phone calls from people who have had lives destroyed by the political correctness of sexuality, anything goes, anytime. What we see in those phone calls, in those pieces of mail, underscore that experience of human history and the mountain of social science research that says a mother and a father are the way we nurture children, and we have always done it that way.

PHILLIPS: Alan, I know you have a response.

ALAN AMBERG, DIVERSE COMMUNICATIONS: Well, first of all, one of the things that we need to consider is that same-sex unions are legal in most of the developed countries of the world. In fact, that Supreme Court decision last week notes the fact that the trend of history and western values is towards gay marriage. If you look at western Europe, if you look at Canada, Israel, South Africa, that's the way we're headed.

Now, I want to say, Mr. Minnery, I appreciate that you're concerned about the institution of heterosexual marriage. I would be, too. I look at the fact that more than half of them end in divorce. That about a third of dads skip out on child support. And, of course, there are the reality TV shows like "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire" that I think have cheapened your institution pretty far.

MINNERY: Alan, let me respond to that.

AMBERG: No, I'm not done yet. That has nothing to do with gay and lesbian folks who have...

PHILLIPS: Let Tom finish his thought, Alan. Let Tom finish his thought.

AMBERG: No, he isn't letting me finish mine.

PHILLIPS: Oh, Alan, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead and finish your thought. Go right ahead.

AMBERG: Oh, what I was going to say is the fact that you have trouble keeping your marriages together has nothing to do with us at all. If you have families that have been together, couples who have been together 5, 10, 20, 25 years, they are a family. They belong together, and it's not a zero (UNINTELLIGIBLE) game. If we can get married, it doesn't mean you can't. So I'm...

MINNERY: Alan, we have had laws against murder for a long time. People still commit murders. Should we just abandon our laws against murder?

AMBERG: Excuse me, that has nothing to do with the other. We also had laws about slavery that were supported by the bible.

PHILLIPS: Tom...

MINNERY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) working, Alan. We ought to strengthen the laws against marriage, not weaken them, not erase them.

PHILLIPS: Tom, let me ask you a question. Tom...

AMBERG: It doesn't weaken them at all.

PHILLIPS: I mean obviously the nation is changing. Alan brought up the point about Canada lifting the ban on same-sex marriage. You've got elected officials that are openly gay, TV movie characters that are openly gay.

AMBERG: And there is something else that I'd like to add to that, Kyra. Gay people are asking for a very traditional conservative value. And that is to get big government, the federal government off our backs, marriage as a state function, and to have nuclear families.

I won't make any laws trying to outlaw your family, Mr. Minnery, you leave my family alone. OK?

PHILLIPS: So Tom, my question to you is the nation is changing, obviously. I mean it's not like it was 30, 40, 50 years ago. Obviously Alan brings up even the point of slavery. Times are changing. So don't you feel we need to go with the times?

MINNERY: Well let me respond to what Alan said about gays wanting a very traditional, conservative institution. Come on, Alan. You can't say that you can replace somebody's mother with a gay man and nobody is going to notice.

It makes a difference that children have both a mother and a father. And social science does not encourage one to believe that children who are raised in same-sex relationships have anywhere near the chance of success.

AMBERG: Excuse me. The American Academy of Pediatricians just ruled...

(CROSSTALK)

AMBERG: ... that gay parents should be both allowed to adopt. Pediatricians say...

MINNERY: Oh come on, Alan. You're not going to use the American Academy of Pediatrics. That was a committee of eight people, and it has caused a furor among the rank and file of the American Academy of Pediatrics.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Let me ask you a question, Alan. And then Tom, you can respond to this.

Recently -- I mean you brought it up, the Supreme Court making a decision with regards to sodomy. Now, is this about consenting adults in their own home, you know, the privacy of their own home, or is this the government recognizing gay relations?

AMBERG: Well, let's start with one thing at a time. First of all, even the most conservative justices in that opinion -- Clarence Thomas, arguably one of the most conservative justices we have in America, wrote as a footnote to that opinion he thought this whole thing was a silly law, and if he were a Texas legislator he would vote to repeal it. He thought it was a bad use of the system's limited resources to go into people's bedrooms and control what they do.

If that's what Clarence Thomas is saying, what is Mr. Minnery talking about? It's about two consenting adults in the privacy of their home. But it's about more than that.

People hear the word "homosexual" and all they think about is sex. It's more than that. If I'm together with the man I love for years, and we have a home and family and a dog and a garden and we're good neighbors and we're good to the people around us, isn't that the most important value?

Take a look at the anti-family stances of this administration. How many million children of the poorest families were left out of that most recent tax cut?

MINNERY: Alan, I think you're making a political soapbox piece. We're talking about the federal marriage amendment. Without question that is going to succeed even in the most liberal states of our country. California addressed the question of one man, one woman marriage a couple of years ago in a proposition called Prop 22.

AMBERG: And isn't that shameful?

MINNERY: And overwhelmingly, by landslide proportions the people said marriage should be an institution between one man and one woman. And you know why? Because it's common sense. Kids need a mom and a dad. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) even more liberal than California is Hawaii, and Hawaii, by a land slide proportion, when the people got to the question, when the questions got out of the hands of the court...

(CROSSTALK)

AMBERG: Yes, and after organizations like yours spent millions of dollars to interfere with their internal politics, yes indeed.

MINNERY: Well, I wish we had millions of dollars.

AMBERG: Excuse me, millions were spent on that fight by organizations just like yours. And just like yours in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) initiative. And what a shameful thing that was.

PHILLIPS: Alan and Tom, I've got to tell you. I know we could keep going and going on this.

AMBERG: I'd love to.

PHILLIPS: It's a hot-button issue, no doubt. And it will be interesting to see if gay marriage will end up in the Supreme Court. The way things are heading, I don't think it would surprise any of us.

AMBERG: It's going to win.

PHILLIPS: We will continue this conversation. Tom Minery...

MINNERY: Political announcement from the other side. Nice to be with you.

PHILLILPS: Tom Minery, Focus on the Family, Alan Amberg, Diverse Communications. Gentlemen, thank you.

AMBERG: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 30, 2003 - 15:44   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The Supreme Court struck a nerve when it knocked down state laws that bar homosexuality last week.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: From gay rights, the battle has now extended to gay marriage. Many gay people out in the city street across the country yesterday celebrating their annual pride event. Activists are pledging a new fight to get legal recognition for same- sex unions. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist says he backed efforts that would ban gay marriage once and for all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST (R), MAJORITY LEADER: I very much feel that marriage is a sacrament, and that sacrament should extend and can extend to that legal entity of a union between what is traditionally in our western values and been defined as between a man and a woman. So I would support the amendment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLILPS: Two sides of the debate now. Alan Amberg founded Diverse Communications. He joins us from Chicago and supports gay marriage. And Tom Minnery with Focus on the Family. He's with us from Colorado Springs, supports the constitutional ban.

Gentlemen, hello. Tom, let's begin with you. You say the institution of marriage is under attack here. Why?

TOM MINNERY, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: Well, it is. Obviously, it's under attack because of the Supreme Court decision last Thursday dealing with sodomy. That erases a community's ability to say that something about sexuality is not so good. And if that is the case, we're not far away when society is going to be able -- not going to be able to say that there's nothing good that we support in sexuality which, of course, is the institution of marriage.

So we applaud Senator Frist. We look forward to the debate. It's a debate that's already been won by thousands of years of human history.

Look, we're a counseling organization. Every day at Focus on the Family we get thousands of letters, thousands of phone calls from people who have had lives destroyed by the political correctness of sexuality, anything goes, anytime. What we see in those phone calls, in those pieces of mail, underscore that experience of human history and the mountain of social science research that says a mother and a father are the way we nurture children, and we have always done it that way.

PHILLIPS: Alan, I know you have a response.

ALAN AMBERG, DIVERSE COMMUNICATIONS: Well, first of all, one of the things that we need to consider is that same-sex unions are legal in most of the developed countries of the world. In fact, that Supreme Court decision last week notes the fact that the trend of history and western values is towards gay marriage. If you look at western Europe, if you look at Canada, Israel, South Africa, that's the way we're headed.

Now, I want to say, Mr. Minnery, I appreciate that you're concerned about the institution of heterosexual marriage. I would be, too. I look at the fact that more than half of them end in divorce. That about a third of dads skip out on child support. And, of course, there are the reality TV shows like "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire" that I think have cheapened your institution pretty far.

MINNERY: Alan, let me respond to that.

AMBERG: No, I'm not done yet. That has nothing to do with gay and lesbian folks who have...

PHILLIPS: Let Tom finish his thought, Alan. Let Tom finish his thought.

AMBERG: No, he isn't letting me finish mine.

PHILLIPS: Oh, Alan, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead and finish your thought. Go right ahead.

AMBERG: Oh, what I was going to say is the fact that you have trouble keeping your marriages together has nothing to do with us at all. If you have families that have been together, couples who have been together 5, 10, 20, 25 years, they are a family. They belong together, and it's not a zero (UNINTELLIGIBLE) game. If we can get married, it doesn't mean you can't. So I'm...

MINNERY: Alan, we have had laws against murder for a long time. People still commit murders. Should we just abandon our laws against murder?

AMBERG: Excuse me, that has nothing to do with the other. We also had laws about slavery that were supported by the bible.

PHILLIPS: Tom...

MINNERY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) working, Alan. We ought to strengthen the laws against marriage, not weaken them, not erase them.

PHILLIPS: Tom, let me ask you a question. Tom...

AMBERG: It doesn't weaken them at all.

PHILLIPS: I mean obviously the nation is changing. Alan brought up the point about Canada lifting the ban on same-sex marriage. You've got elected officials that are openly gay, TV movie characters that are openly gay.

AMBERG: And there is something else that I'd like to add to that, Kyra. Gay people are asking for a very traditional conservative value. And that is to get big government, the federal government off our backs, marriage as a state function, and to have nuclear families.

I won't make any laws trying to outlaw your family, Mr. Minnery, you leave my family alone. OK?

PHILLIPS: So Tom, my question to you is the nation is changing, obviously. I mean it's not like it was 30, 40, 50 years ago. Obviously Alan brings up even the point of slavery. Times are changing. So don't you feel we need to go with the times?

MINNERY: Well let me respond to what Alan said about gays wanting a very traditional, conservative institution. Come on, Alan. You can't say that you can replace somebody's mother with a gay man and nobody is going to notice.

It makes a difference that children have both a mother and a father. And social science does not encourage one to believe that children who are raised in same-sex relationships have anywhere near the chance of success.

AMBERG: Excuse me. The American Academy of Pediatricians just ruled...

(CROSSTALK)

AMBERG: ... that gay parents should be both allowed to adopt. Pediatricians say...

MINNERY: Oh come on, Alan. You're not going to use the American Academy of Pediatrics. That was a committee of eight people, and it has caused a furor among the rank and file of the American Academy of Pediatrics.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Let me ask you a question, Alan. And then Tom, you can respond to this.

Recently -- I mean you brought it up, the Supreme Court making a decision with regards to sodomy. Now, is this about consenting adults in their own home, you know, the privacy of their own home, or is this the government recognizing gay relations?

AMBERG: Well, let's start with one thing at a time. First of all, even the most conservative justices in that opinion -- Clarence Thomas, arguably one of the most conservative justices we have in America, wrote as a footnote to that opinion he thought this whole thing was a silly law, and if he were a Texas legislator he would vote to repeal it. He thought it was a bad use of the system's limited resources to go into people's bedrooms and control what they do.

If that's what Clarence Thomas is saying, what is Mr. Minnery talking about? It's about two consenting adults in the privacy of their home. But it's about more than that.

People hear the word "homosexual" and all they think about is sex. It's more than that. If I'm together with the man I love for years, and we have a home and family and a dog and a garden and we're good neighbors and we're good to the people around us, isn't that the most important value?

Take a look at the anti-family stances of this administration. How many million children of the poorest families were left out of that most recent tax cut?

MINNERY: Alan, I think you're making a political soapbox piece. We're talking about the federal marriage amendment. Without question that is going to succeed even in the most liberal states of our country. California addressed the question of one man, one woman marriage a couple of years ago in a proposition called Prop 22.

AMBERG: And isn't that shameful?

MINNERY: And overwhelmingly, by landslide proportions the people said marriage should be an institution between one man and one woman. And you know why? Because it's common sense. Kids need a mom and a dad. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) even more liberal than California is Hawaii, and Hawaii, by a land slide proportion, when the people got to the question, when the questions got out of the hands of the court...

(CROSSTALK)

AMBERG: Yes, and after organizations like yours spent millions of dollars to interfere with their internal politics, yes indeed.

MINNERY: Well, I wish we had millions of dollars.

AMBERG: Excuse me, millions were spent on that fight by organizations just like yours. And just like yours in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) initiative. And what a shameful thing that was.

PHILLIPS: Alan and Tom, I've got to tell you. I know we could keep going and going on this.

AMBERG: I'd love to.

PHILLIPS: It's a hot-button issue, no doubt. And it will be interesting to see if gay marriage will end up in the Supreme Court. The way things are heading, I don't think it would surprise any of us.

AMBERG: It's going to win.

PHILLIPS: We will continue this conversation. Tom Minery...

MINNERY: Political announcement from the other side. Nice to be with you.

PHILLILPS: Tom Minery, Focus on the Family, Alan Amberg, Diverse Communications. Gentlemen, thank you.

AMBERG: Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com