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Interview With Clarence Page, Roland Martin
Aired July 08, 2003 - 14:40 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well he says it's not racial it's history. That's why the Chicago Cubs manager Dusty Baker says he won't back off his claim that black and Latino players are more suited to the sun and heat. This is what he had to say Saturday.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DUSTY BAKER, CHICAGO CUBS MANAGER: Personally, I like to play in the heat. You know, it's easy for me. I mean it's easy for most Latin guys and easy minority people as most of us come from heat.
You know you don't find too many brothers from New Hampshire and Maine and upper peninsula in Michigan, right? I mean, you know, we're brought over here for the heat. Right? I mean ain't that -- isn't that history? Weren't we brought over here because we could take the heat?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a long time ago, though.
BAKER: So?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You might have become acclimated to a different climate.
BAKER: Well, but your skin color's more conducive to heat than it is to the lighter skinned people are to heat.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: We'll now Baker is taking the heat but keeping it cool and he agrees with critics who say a white manager couldn't get away with saying that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAKER: I can say stuff and call somebody of my color stuff that you all can't call him. And then you guys can call people whether Jewish or Polish or I've heard Italian people call Italian people stuff that I can't say. Dig what I'm saying?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, maybe. Let's find out if our guests are digging it.
Clarence Page, syndicated columnist and member of "The Chicago Tribune"'s editorial board. He's author of "Showing My Color: Impolite Essays on Race and Identity." And Roland Martin is a nationally syndicated columnist with Creators Syndicate and news editor for "SAVOY" magazine. He is the author of "Speak Brother!: A Black Man's View of America."
Gentlemen, nice to have you with us.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: All right, first of all, let's start out -- Clarence, let's start with you. You know, is this just ignorance or is this malice? What do you make of these comments?
CLARENCE PAGE, AUTHOR, "SHOWING MY COLOR": Well, when I hear Dusty Baker saying this is history, and, of course, it's not, it's a sad reflection on the quality of education we're getting in this country, maybe.
But, you know, I've been saying for years back when we had similar controversies with Al Campanis and with Jimmy the Greek and various other folks -- I mean these things seem to be hardy perennials just about every year.
We ought to call a moratorium on severely punishing people for ignorance. These were not comments made out of malice, they were made out of ignorance and he was half joking anyway. And people who are ignorant of something need to be educated regardless what color they are. I think that's the best kind of equal policy for everybody.
PHILLIPS: Now, Roland, you think Dusty's comments go back to the days of slavery and he sort of knew what he was talking about?
ROLAND MARTIN, BLACKAMERICAWEB.COM: Well I wouldn't say knew what he was talking about. He's playing the role of an amateur anthropologist.
A few years ago Jack Nicklaus made a comment that the reason African-Americans are not successful golfers is because they have far too much muscle mass at the top of their body. Jack also was crazy for making that comment.
Maybe what Dusty's problem is that his ball players are unable to play in the heat for lack of conditioning, which is the responsibility of the manager during spring training. Jimmy Johnson with the Dallas Cowboys often had his players practice in the heat in order to acclimate them in for upcoming season so they wouldn't wear out towards the end of the season.
So I think Dusty is frustrated because his team is losing. Maybe he's trying to say, Hey, Guys. Get some more Latin ball players in here. but the bottom line is, if you're white, if you're black and you have lived and you have played in the heat, you can play in that. That's what it's all about. It's a matter of conditioning versus going back 200, 300 years saying it's because of slavery.
PHILLIPS: All right, Clarence, you mentioned some quotes. You mentioned Al Campanis, the L.A. Dodger general manager. back in '87 he said, "I truly believe that they," black players, "may not have some of the necessities to be, let's say, a field manager or perhaps a general manager." Well, two days later Dodgers fired him. All right?
And then you've got Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder back in 1998 saying, "the black is a better athlete to begin with because he has been bred to be that way. This goes all the way back to the Civil War when the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid. See?" Well a day later CBS Sports fired him.
So this brings up the question, and even Dusty Brings this up, do you think -- he says, Hey, I can say this stuff because I'm black. Now, if a white guy would have said this, what do you think? Would he have gotten canned?
PAGE: I think there's no question. Dusty is being very realistic. There is a double standard and it's because of guilt on the part of professional baseball as well as other professional sports leagues because they have gotten a lot more minorities out there on the field or out there on the court than they have up there in management. And so they're defensive and these kind of things do happen in such a way that you get a certain office politics that sets in.
As I said, I think everybody ought to be treated equally. These are not malicious comments. They should be treated for the ignorance they are. Like Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder obviously didn't know history any better than Dusty Baker knows his anthropology.
We don't hire these people or pay tickets to see them be good anthropologists or sociologist. They're supposed to be sports people.
But I think Roland hi on something, though. These flaps do tend to happen around losing teams.
MARTIN: Now, Kyra, (UNINTELLIGIBLE). That's very critical as to relate to what Dusty said. There is a double standard if you're African-American, if you are white, if you're Italian, if you're Jewish, if you're a woman.
And so he is correct in that we view comments much differently if it is coming from an individual from the same particular group. So this is not a question of, well, here's a black guy getting way with comments. We have seen many instances where a woman can say something that is -- some may consider offensive but it is considered more offensive if a man makes the same statement.
PAGE: You've got a point there. I think when my wife makes a comment about some fellow having a cute backside it's taken differently than if I make a comment about a woman, obviously. Right?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIPS: You know, we talk about that here in the newsroom. I seem to get buy with a lot compared to my executive producer. He always tells me, Hey, you can get by with that but I can't.
PAGE: Well we never talk that way in our newsroom.
PHILLIPS: No, of course not.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: We never slam each other, do we?
OK, now remember this? I had one of our interns actually pull this quote and I was thinking, OK, we're standing about all these white guys making comments, OK, and getting canned.
Remember Reggie White? And here's the quote. When he was playing with the Green Bay Packers back in 1988, he was giving this speech in Milwaukee and he said, "Sometimes when people talk about this sin they have been accused of being racist. I'm offended that homosexuals will say that homosexuals deserve rights. Any man in America deserves rights but homosexuals are trying to compare their plight with the plight of the black man and the black people."
Well, you know, he comes out and makes these comments and you talk about a public outcry. But, you know, he never got into trouble for saying anything about homosexuals.
MARTIN: And, Kyra, primarily because Reggie White is also a minister. So therefore the comments that an individual makes when they have their ministerial cloth on, we accept that. Frankly Reggie White would be very at home with a Southern Baptist convention. He would be very much at home in a number of other denominations' conventions.
And so again, it's based upon really what an individual's background is and what the context is. In Dusty Baker's case, his team is losing.
PAGE: However, I did criticize Reggie when he made those statements because they were imprudent, inappropriate and they were just flat wrong.
And that's why we need to have a dialogue in this country around matters of race and gender, around gay issues, the Supreme Court with their recent sodomy decision has now started more of a national dialogue around those issues.
But I don't think somebody should be fired for expressing what they honestly believe. And, again, I don't think Reggie White was trying to be malicious coming from his background as Roland says. But at the same time he is a minister, he is a leader, he is a spokesperson, like it or not. I think he likes it. And as a professional sports figure, public behavior and statements do mean something. MARTIN: And, Kyra, I would hope that we have an honest dialogue where we don't hold things back because typically that's what folks do in these kind of conversations who really don't want to offend anyone. That's why I think comedy is so wonderful because you have folks who say exactly what is on their mind. Although we laugh about it, it then causes us to dissect what they are saying and then have a real conversation to get to a true understanding of really what our problems and issues are.
PHILLIPS: Well said. It's 2003, we've got to get with the times, right?
PAGE: Here, here.
MARTIN: Absolutely.
PHILLIPS: All right. Clarence Page, Roland Martin, what a pleasure. Thank you, gentlemen.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 8, 2003 - 14:40 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well he says it's not racial it's history. That's why the Chicago Cubs manager Dusty Baker says he won't back off his claim that black and Latino players are more suited to the sun and heat. This is what he had to say Saturday.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DUSTY BAKER, CHICAGO CUBS MANAGER: Personally, I like to play in the heat. You know, it's easy for me. I mean it's easy for most Latin guys and easy minority people as most of us come from heat.
You know you don't find too many brothers from New Hampshire and Maine and upper peninsula in Michigan, right? I mean, you know, we're brought over here for the heat. Right? I mean ain't that -- isn't that history? Weren't we brought over here because we could take the heat?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a long time ago, though.
BAKER: So?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You might have become acclimated to a different climate.
BAKER: Well, but your skin color's more conducive to heat than it is to the lighter skinned people are to heat.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: We'll now Baker is taking the heat but keeping it cool and he agrees with critics who say a white manager couldn't get away with saying that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAKER: I can say stuff and call somebody of my color stuff that you all can't call him. And then you guys can call people whether Jewish or Polish or I've heard Italian people call Italian people stuff that I can't say. Dig what I'm saying?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Well, maybe. Let's find out if our guests are digging it.
Clarence Page, syndicated columnist and member of "The Chicago Tribune"'s editorial board. He's author of "Showing My Color: Impolite Essays on Race and Identity." And Roland Martin is a nationally syndicated columnist with Creators Syndicate and news editor for "SAVOY" magazine. He is the author of "Speak Brother!: A Black Man's View of America."
Gentlemen, nice to have you with us.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: All right, first of all, let's start out -- Clarence, let's start with you. You know, is this just ignorance or is this malice? What do you make of these comments?
CLARENCE PAGE, AUTHOR, "SHOWING MY COLOR": Well, when I hear Dusty Baker saying this is history, and, of course, it's not, it's a sad reflection on the quality of education we're getting in this country, maybe.
But, you know, I've been saying for years back when we had similar controversies with Al Campanis and with Jimmy the Greek and various other folks -- I mean these things seem to be hardy perennials just about every year.
We ought to call a moratorium on severely punishing people for ignorance. These were not comments made out of malice, they were made out of ignorance and he was half joking anyway. And people who are ignorant of something need to be educated regardless what color they are. I think that's the best kind of equal policy for everybody.
PHILLIPS: Now, Roland, you think Dusty's comments go back to the days of slavery and he sort of knew what he was talking about?
ROLAND MARTIN, BLACKAMERICAWEB.COM: Well I wouldn't say knew what he was talking about. He's playing the role of an amateur anthropologist.
A few years ago Jack Nicklaus made a comment that the reason African-Americans are not successful golfers is because they have far too much muscle mass at the top of their body. Jack also was crazy for making that comment.
Maybe what Dusty's problem is that his ball players are unable to play in the heat for lack of conditioning, which is the responsibility of the manager during spring training. Jimmy Johnson with the Dallas Cowboys often had his players practice in the heat in order to acclimate them in for upcoming season so they wouldn't wear out towards the end of the season.
So I think Dusty is frustrated because his team is losing. Maybe he's trying to say, Hey, Guys. Get some more Latin ball players in here. but the bottom line is, if you're white, if you're black and you have lived and you have played in the heat, you can play in that. That's what it's all about. It's a matter of conditioning versus going back 200, 300 years saying it's because of slavery.
PHILLIPS: All right, Clarence, you mentioned some quotes. You mentioned Al Campanis, the L.A. Dodger general manager. back in '87 he said, "I truly believe that they," black players, "may not have some of the necessities to be, let's say, a field manager or perhaps a general manager." Well, two days later Dodgers fired him. All right?
And then you've got Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder back in 1998 saying, "the black is a better athlete to begin with because he has been bred to be that way. This goes all the way back to the Civil War when the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid. See?" Well a day later CBS Sports fired him.
So this brings up the question, and even Dusty Brings this up, do you think -- he says, Hey, I can say this stuff because I'm black. Now, if a white guy would have said this, what do you think? Would he have gotten canned?
PAGE: I think there's no question. Dusty is being very realistic. There is a double standard and it's because of guilt on the part of professional baseball as well as other professional sports leagues because they have gotten a lot more minorities out there on the field or out there on the court than they have up there in management. And so they're defensive and these kind of things do happen in such a way that you get a certain office politics that sets in.
As I said, I think everybody ought to be treated equally. These are not malicious comments. They should be treated for the ignorance they are. Like Jimmy "The Greek" Snyder obviously didn't know history any better than Dusty Baker knows his anthropology.
We don't hire these people or pay tickets to see them be good anthropologists or sociologist. They're supposed to be sports people.
But I think Roland hi on something, though. These flaps do tend to happen around losing teams.
MARTIN: Now, Kyra, (UNINTELLIGIBLE). That's very critical as to relate to what Dusty said. There is a double standard if you're African-American, if you are white, if you're Italian, if you're Jewish, if you're a woman.
And so he is correct in that we view comments much differently if it is coming from an individual from the same particular group. So this is not a question of, well, here's a black guy getting way with comments. We have seen many instances where a woman can say something that is -- some may consider offensive but it is considered more offensive if a man makes the same statement.
PAGE: You've got a point there. I think when my wife makes a comment about some fellow having a cute backside it's taken differently than if I make a comment about a woman, obviously. Right?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK) PHILLIPS: You know, we talk about that here in the newsroom. I seem to get buy with a lot compared to my executive producer. He always tells me, Hey, you can get by with that but I can't.
PAGE: Well we never talk that way in our newsroom.
PHILLIPS: No, of course not.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: We never slam each other, do we?
OK, now remember this? I had one of our interns actually pull this quote and I was thinking, OK, we're standing about all these white guys making comments, OK, and getting canned.
Remember Reggie White? And here's the quote. When he was playing with the Green Bay Packers back in 1988, he was giving this speech in Milwaukee and he said, "Sometimes when people talk about this sin they have been accused of being racist. I'm offended that homosexuals will say that homosexuals deserve rights. Any man in America deserves rights but homosexuals are trying to compare their plight with the plight of the black man and the black people."
Well, you know, he comes out and makes these comments and you talk about a public outcry. But, you know, he never got into trouble for saying anything about homosexuals.
MARTIN: And, Kyra, primarily because Reggie White is also a minister. So therefore the comments that an individual makes when they have their ministerial cloth on, we accept that. Frankly Reggie White would be very at home with a Southern Baptist convention. He would be very much at home in a number of other denominations' conventions.
And so again, it's based upon really what an individual's background is and what the context is. In Dusty Baker's case, his team is losing.
PAGE: However, I did criticize Reggie when he made those statements because they were imprudent, inappropriate and they were just flat wrong.
And that's why we need to have a dialogue in this country around matters of race and gender, around gay issues, the Supreme Court with their recent sodomy decision has now started more of a national dialogue around those issues.
But I don't think somebody should be fired for expressing what they honestly believe. And, again, I don't think Reggie White was trying to be malicious coming from his background as Roland says. But at the same time he is a minister, he is a leader, he is a spokesperson, like it or not. I think he likes it. And as a professional sports figure, public behavior and statements do mean something. MARTIN: And, Kyra, I would hope that we have an honest dialogue where we don't hold things back because typically that's what folks do in these kind of conversations who really don't want to offend anyone. That's why I think comedy is so wonderful because you have folks who say exactly what is on their mind. Although we laugh about it, it then causes us to dissect what they are saying and then have a real conversation to get to a true understanding of really what our problems and issues are.
PHILLIPS: Well said. It's 2003, we've got to get with the times, right?
PAGE: Here, here.
MARTIN: Absolutely.
PHILLIPS: All right. Clarence Page, Roland Martin, what a pleasure. Thank you, gentlemen.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
