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Interview With Winnie Stachleberg, Matt Daniels.
Aired July 14, 2003 - 13:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us with their views on the issue, Matt Daniels, director of the Alliance for Marriage. He says gays don't have the right to redefine marriage in America. And Winnie Stachleberg with the Human Rights Campaign which supports gay marriage. Thanks for both of you to being here.
WINNIE STACHLEBERG, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: My pleasure, Kyra.
MATT DANIELS, DIRECTOR, ALLIANCE FOR MARRIAGE: You're welcome.
PHILLIPS: All right we put together a graphic. Let's lay out, OK, marriage versus civil union. The benefits. Civil unions exist in only one state, Vermont. Civil unions only good for state benefits, rights, responsibilities. Marriage of course has federal benefits.
Winnie, let's begin with you and talk about why civil unions are not enough.
STACHLEBERG: Well civil unions is a step in the right direction, but as your graphic points out it denies a couple of significant things to gay couples who enter into loving and committed relationships. It's only good in the state of Vermont and only has to do with state benefits that the Vermont state grants.
The problem is there are over 1,000 rights and responsibilities and benefits accorded to married couples that are federal benefits, like Social Security survivor benefits, filing taxes jointly, the ability to roll over your pension, the ability to visit your loved one in the hospital and make medical decisions for them. And these are the things that are denied to loving, committed couples all over the United States. So what we're seeking is equal marriage rights, civil marriage rights here in the United States.
And while the Massachusetts court hasn't yet ruled, I think we see anti-gay groups expressing their animosity toward gay and lesbian couples in a way that I think will undermine the United States Constitution and the integrity, really, that makes up the fabric of this country.
PHILLIPS: Matt, as Winnie lays it out, in that regard, it does sound highly unfair.
DANIELS: You know the alliance for marriage is comprised of two of the largest black denominations in the United States and is led by men like like Walter Fauntroy who organized a march on Washington for Martin Luther King. These are great men and women. These people are my friends. And I can tell you anyone who accuses them of hatred or bigotry has no right to do so. In fact I say shame on you for leveling an allegation like that against such great men and women who believe simply gays and lesbians have a right to live as they choose but they don't have a right to redefine marriage for an entire society.
These activists want to force this on our entire nation through the courts. It's just common sense that marriage is a man and a woman. And we have a right as an American people to protect that for the well-being of future generations.
PHILLIPS: Well, Matt, the Constitution traditionally has been used to expand rights of everybody.
DANIELS: The Constitution is primarily about how we govern ourselves and the Federal Marriage Amendment protects the right of the people to pass the legal road map of marriage to the family on to the generation and to send a positive message to our kids and to our grandkids and to the next generation about marriage, family and their own future.
That's not intolerant and I would ask anyone who brings an accusation of bigotry against these black leaders, against Walter Fauntroy what are your credentials to accuse them of hatred for believing that it's just common sense. Marriage is a man and woman.
PHILLIPS: But, Winnie, are we talking bigotry here or are we just talking simply this just is not fair.
STACHLEBERG: Well I think that's exactly what it is. It's about treating people fairly. And this country is based on treating people fairly.
I certainly didn't use the words bigotry or hatred. Those are Matt Daniels' words, not mine. What I'm talking about is ensuring that all couples in this country are treated equally and fairly under the law.
And unfortunately this Constitutional amendment seeks to do just the opposite. It seeks to write discrimination into the Constitution. It seeks to undermine the basic tenets of this country and the principles on which it was founded. It seeks to treat Americans fairly.
People enter into loving and committed relationship. That's what gay and lesbian people do, that's what heterosexuals do. And we're seeking equal treatment, that's all.
And I think anti-gay attacks that foster undermining that relationship and that stability, that's what this Constitutionalism -- amendment is all about.
PHILLIPS: Matt, you look at the divorce rate. You look at how many men and women cheat on each other. You look at how the whole family unit truly -- this is not a Beaver Cleaver era anymore. So how do gay unions, healthy gay unions undermine the institution of marriage?
DANIELS: Listen, gays and lesbians have all the same rights as other Americans and have a right to live as they choose. They have equal rights under the law. But they don't have a right to use the courts to destroy the legal status of marriage, which people want to send a positive message to kids.
You know look. Most Americans understand that the union of a man and woman in marriage has unique benefits for kids in society. It's appropriate for our laws to recognize that. There's nothing wrong with that.
And to accuse -- you know, she says she doesn't accuse people of bigotry but she talks about anti-guy gay and she talks about sending a signal. This is not about anything other than marriage and it never will be. It's common sense that marriage is a man and woman. America's black leaders, Walter Fauntroy who organized the march on Washington for King, agree with most Americans, it needs to stay that way for the sake of our kids.
STACHLEBERG: If I could just jump in, and maybe Matt and I don't disagree as much as I think. I want do want to take care of our nation's children. I want to provide for a stronger family in this country. I want to ensure that all of us can seek the benefits and rights and responsibilities of marriage.
That, in fact, is what provides that kind of stability to families, all kinds of families in this country. Children deserve that kind of legal protection. Couples deserve that kind of legal protection. The ability to visit your loved one in a hospital, the ability to provide Social Security survivor benefits, to co-sign a mortgage, to file your taxes jointly.
This is what marriage is. It's the thousand rights and responsibilities and benefits. And gay couples shouldn't be denied that right and responsibility and benefit any longer.
PHILLIPS: Matt, final thoughts?
DANIELS: The Federal Marriage Amendment says marriage is a man and woman. It's lets the American people decide everything else. This is not about benefits. It never will be, it has been. It's about marriage, the nature and definition of marriage. Under the Federal Marriage Amendment gays and lesbians can seek all the benefits of marriage through the legislative process like other Americans which is fair. That's why we support it, that's Walter Fauntroy who lead the march on Washington for King, and why two of the largest black denominations in America are behind it.
STACHLEBERG: I beg to disagree with Matt here, because that is not what the Constitutional amendment said. It actually doesn't say that states or the federal government, in fact, have to recognize not only marriages, but domestic partnership. In fact, it could vitiate, it could wipe out all of the domestic partner benefits, the great strides that have been made at the state level. And here at the federal level President Bush has signed a couple pieces of legislation over the last couple years that, in fact, are threatened because of this Constitutional amendment that provide gay and lesbian couples the basic tenets of hospital visitation, domestic partner benefits. And I think those are the kinds of things that are swept away, that are called into question by this Constitutional amendment.
The American public doesn't want that. And neither should members of Congress.
(CROSSTALK)
DANIELS: I have to respond to this. This just is a scare tactic. It's never been about benefits, it never will be. It's about whether marriage is a man or woman. It's simple as that.
PHILLIPS: When you lay it out though, Matt, I mean it is not fair when it comes down to the benefit issue.
DANIELS: Would you say that about -- I mean, I'm telling you, the people behind this...
STACHLEBERG: This is just about treating...
(CROSSTALK)
DANIELS: Walter Fauntroy, who organized the march on Washington for Martin Luther King, is not interested in stripping anyone of benefits. I know the man. He's a great man. And I would say no one has the right to accuse him of that. This Amendment protects marriage as a man and a woman.
And by the way the far right has attacked us specifically for the opposite allegation. They've attacked us because they say we don't want to take away benefits from gays and lesbians. So we're getting attacked from the far right and far left. And you know what? That means we've found a centrist solution to a divisive social debate that offers hope that future generations of Americans can live together in peace and have a common definition of marriage, leaving everything else to the states.
PHILLIPS: Well i can tell you we're going to be following the Massachusetts supreme court, find out what that is going ruling be. And will you two come back?
DANIELS: Sure.
STACHLEBERG: Sure.
PHILLIPS: All right. Winnie Stachleberg and Matt Daniels, thank you both very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 14, 2003 - 13:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us with their views on the issue, Matt Daniels, director of the Alliance for Marriage. He says gays don't have the right to redefine marriage in America. And Winnie Stachleberg with the Human Rights Campaign which supports gay marriage. Thanks for both of you to being here.
WINNIE STACHLEBERG, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: My pleasure, Kyra.
MATT DANIELS, DIRECTOR, ALLIANCE FOR MARRIAGE: You're welcome.
PHILLIPS: All right we put together a graphic. Let's lay out, OK, marriage versus civil union. The benefits. Civil unions exist in only one state, Vermont. Civil unions only good for state benefits, rights, responsibilities. Marriage of course has federal benefits.
Winnie, let's begin with you and talk about why civil unions are not enough.
STACHLEBERG: Well civil unions is a step in the right direction, but as your graphic points out it denies a couple of significant things to gay couples who enter into loving and committed relationships. It's only good in the state of Vermont and only has to do with state benefits that the Vermont state grants.
The problem is there are over 1,000 rights and responsibilities and benefits accorded to married couples that are federal benefits, like Social Security survivor benefits, filing taxes jointly, the ability to roll over your pension, the ability to visit your loved one in the hospital and make medical decisions for them. And these are the things that are denied to loving, committed couples all over the United States. So what we're seeking is equal marriage rights, civil marriage rights here in the United States.
And while the Massachusetts court hasn't yet ruled, I think we see anti-gay groups expressing their animosity toward gay and lesbian couples in a way that I think will undermine the United States Constitution and the integrity, really, that makes up the fabric of this country.
PHILLIPS: Matt, as Winnie lays it out, in that regard, it does sound highly unfair.
DANIELS: You know the alliance for marriage is comprised of two of the largest black denominations in the United States and is led by men like like Walter Fauntroy who organized a march on Washington for Martin Luther King. These are great men and women. These people are my friends. And I can tell you anyone who accuses them of hatred or bigotry has no right to do so. In fact I say shame on you for leveling an allegation like that against such great men and women who believe simply gays and lesbians have a right to live as they choose but they don't have a right to redefine marriage for an entire society.
These activists want to force this on our entire nation through the courts. It's just common sense that marriage is a man and a woman. And we have a right as an American people to protect that for the well-being of future generations.
PHILLIPS: Well, Matt, the Constitution traditionally has been used to expand rights of everybody.
DANIELS: The Constitution is primarily about how we govern ourselves and the Federal Marriage Amendment protects the right of the people to pass the legal road map of marriage to the family on to the generation and to send a positive message to our kids and to our grandkids and to the next generation about marriage, family and their own future.
That's not intolerant and I would ask anyone who brings an accusation of bigotry against these black leaders, against Walter Fauntroy what are your credentials to accuse them of hatred for believing that it's just common sense. Marriage is a man and woman.
PHILLIPS: But, Winnie, are we talking bigotry here or are we just talking simply this just is not fair.
STACHLEBERG: Well I think that's exactly what it is. It's about treating people fairly. And this country is based on treating people fairly.
I certainly didn't use the words bigotry or hatred. Those are Matt Daniels' words, not mine. What I'm talking about is ensuring that all couples in this country are treated equally and fairly under the law.
And unfortunately this Constitutional amendment seeks to do just the opposite. It seeks to write discrimination into the Constitution. It seeks to undermine the basic tenets of this country and the principles on which it was founded. It seeks to treat Americans fairly.
People enter into loving and committed relationship. That's what gay and lesbian people do, that's what heterosexuals do. And we're seeking equal treatment, that's all.
And I think anti-gay attacks that foster undermining that relationship and that stability, that's what this Constitutionalism -- amendment is all about.
PHILLIPS: Matt, you look at the divorce rate. You look at how many men and women cheat on each other. You look at how the whole family unit truly -- this is not a Beaver Cleaver era anymore. So how do gay unions, healthy gay unions undermine the institution of marriage?
DANIELS: Listen, gays and lesbians have all the same rights as other Americans and have a right to live as they choose. They have equal rights under the law. But they don't have a right to use the courts to destroy the legal status of marriage, which people want to send a positive message to kids.
You know look. Most Americans understand that the union of a man and woman in marriage has unique benefits for kids in society. It's appropriate for our laws to recognize that. There's nothing wrong with that.
And to accuse -- you know, she says she doesn't accuse people of bigotry but she talks about anti-guy gay and she talks about sending a signal. This is not about anything other than marriage and it never will be. It's common sense that marriage is a man and woman. America's black leaders, Walter Fauntroy who organized the march on Washington for King, agree with most Americans, it needs to stay that way for the sake of our kids.
STACHLEBERG: If I could just jump in, and maybe Matt and I don't disagree as much as I think. I want do want to take care of our nation's children. I want to provide for a stronger family in this country. I want to ensure that all of us can seek the benefits and rights and responsibilities of marriage.
That, in fact, is what provides that kind of stability to families, all kinds of families in this country. Children deserve that kind of legal protection. Couples deserve that kind of legal protection. The ability to visit your loved one in a hospital, the ability to provide Social Security survivor benefits, to co-sign a mortgage, to file your taxes jointly.
This is what marriage is. It's the thousand rights and responsibilities and benefits. And gay couples shouldn't be denied that right and responsibility and benefit any longer.
PHILLIPS: Matt, final thoughts?
DANIELS: The Federal Marriage Amendment says marriage is a man and woman. It's lets the American people decide everything else. This is not about benefits. It never will be, it has been. It's about marriage, the nature and definition of marriage. Under the Federal Marriage Amendment gays and lesbians can seek all the benefits of marriage through the legislative process like other Americans which is fair. That's why we support it, that's Walter Fauntroy who lead the march on Washington for King, and why two of the largest black denominations in America are behind it.
STACHLEBERG: I beg to disagree with Matt here, because that is not what the Constitutional amendment said. It actually doesn't say that states or the federal government, in fact, have to recognize not only marriages, but domestic partnership. In fact, it could vitiate, it could wipe out all of the domestic partner benefits, the great strides that have been made at the state level. And here at the federal level President Bush has signed a couple pieces of legislation over the last couple years that, in fact, are threatened because of this Constitutional amendment that provide gay and lesbian couples the basic tenets of hospital visitation, domestic partner benefits. And I think those are the kinds of things that are swept away, that are called into question by this Constitutional amendment.
The American public doesn't want that. And neither should members of Congress.
(CROSSTALK)
DANIELS: I have to respond to this. This just is a scare tactic. It's never been about benefits, it never will be. It's about whether marriage is a man or woman. It's simple as that.
PHILLIPS: When you lay it out though, Matt, I mean it is not fair when it comes down to the benefit issue.
DANIELS: Would you say that about -- I mean, I'm telling you, the people behind this...
STACHLEBERG: This is just about treating...
(CROSSTALK)
DANIELS: Walter Fauntroy, who organized the march on Washington for Martin Luther King, is not interested in stripping anyone of benefits. I know the man. He's a great man. And I would say no one has the right to accuse him of that. This Amendment protects marriage as a man and a woman.
And by the way the far right has attacked us specifically for the opposite allegation. They've attacked us because they say we don't want to take away benefits from gays and lesbians. So we're getting attacked from the far right and far left. And you know what? That means we've found a centrist solution to a divisive social debate that offers hope that future generations of Americans can live together in peace and have a common definition of marriage, leaving everything else to the states.
PHILLIPS: Well i can tell you we're going to be following the Massachusetts supreme court, find out what that is going ruling be. And will you two come back?
DANIELS: Sure.
STACHLEBERG: Sure.
PHILLIPS: All right. Winnie Stachleberg and Matt Daniels, thank you both very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
