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'Make Believe Allies?'

Aired July 25, 2003 - 14:14   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: With us now is former CIA Middle East operative Robert Baer. He's the author of several scathing criticisms of U.S. intelligence over the years. His latest book, "Sleeping With the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude." The title speaks for itself.
Mr Baer, good to have you with us.

All right, let's about that 28 pages that we can't see. If you were with the CIA and had a clearance, you could see it. What would you suspect would be in there?

ROBERT BAER, AUTHOR, "SLEEPING WITH THE DEVIL": I think the information -- information like this, 28 pages, you can do what we call sanitize it; you remove the sources and the methods, and you can still publish it. You just state the facts. You don't say where you got it from. So it's undoubtedly something to do with political sensitivities concerning Saudi Arabia.

O'BRIEN: Political sensitivities or national security, or both?

BAER: Political.

O'BRIEN: OK.

BAER: Well, it includes national security, because look at it this way -- if there is enough information in those 28 pages to indict Saudis inside Saudi Arabia, possibly officials, and the Bush administration indicts them and the Saudis don't turn them over, where are they going to be in the war on terrorism?

A lot of the information that was published in this report, I would indict some of those Saudis that have gone free, more than Zacarias Moussaoui, who is in jail now and may go to a military tribunal.

The point is the Saudis will not turn these people over to us for investigation or trial, and that's the dilemma this administration is facing.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk about the funding issue. There is some allegations out there that there really was perhaps some very direct funding of some of the 19 hijackers by Saudi interests. It's kind of hard to follow the money trail, of course, but the allegations are out there.

BAER: It's complicated, but what we do know is there was a Saudi agent, a presumed Saudi agent, someone who the FBI believes is a Saudi agent, that met two of the hijackers and set them up in San Diego. He paid money. He put money down. It was undoubtedly government money. It's this kind of suspicion that is causing Bandar, the ambassador, so many problems. Who are these people? Who supports them in the kingdom? And the Saudis are asking us, trust us, we've gotten care of this, we're taking care of terrorism in the kingdom. But the point is, we've trusted them in the past and we've been betrayed.

O'BRIEN: All right, but the issue here from the U.S. perspective is that a relationship with the Saudis is at the very core of U.S. national interest, and nations don't have friends, they have interests. And in this case, our interest is that oil. So don't we have to take the Saudis, warts and all?

BAER: We have to, but we're paying a price. I mean, we have our 3,000 dead. How do you explain these subtleties the families of the lost people in the World Trade Center gone and the Pentagon. This is the problem that Americans want the answer to.

I understand that Saudi Arabia is a brutal country, I understand it's has been a great ally of the United States, and I understand there is a certain rot in it that is resulting in killing American citizens, and we want the answers. I think it would behoove all of us, including the Saudis, to give us those answers, clean that place up, and let's clear the air.

O'BRIEN: But what is the likelihood of that when the Saudi regime itself may not be as secure as one might believe, given the fundamentalism that is alive and well in the kingdom?

BAER: You're exactly right. Once we start unraveling, how high does this go? And that's what the Saudis are worried about. All of these Saudis that were involved in September 11th had Saudi sponsors probably in the royal family, and they don't want to be exposed, whether they knew about the plot or not.

O'BRIEN: Let me ask you this, now that the U.S. is occupying Iraq and those oil reserves presumably will be tapped and that will end up on the market, does that, in any way, take the U.S. off the hook in this relationship with Saudi Arabia and take less emphasis -- takes an emphasis off of it?

BAER: No, not really, because the Iraqi reserves are ultimately going to go back to the Iraqis. People accuse of going into this war for its oil and substitute Saudi. I don't buy that. Saudi Arabia remains the most important producer in the world. It's got the only surplus capacity. It was there in '91 to bail out markets when they were tight. It was there this last war. We need Saudi Arabia.

So I share a lot of the concerns of the Bush administration, but the question is it's this dilemma, how do we induce change there without causing the family to fall?

O'BRIEN: Boy, talk about a tightrope. Robert Baer is out with the book "Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude." Thanks for joining us. We appreciate your insights. Good timing on the release of this book, with the report out.

BAER: I got lucky. Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired July 25, 2003 - 14:14   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: With us now is former CIA Middle East operative Robert Baer. He's the author of several scathing criticisms of U.S. intelligence over the years. His latest book, "Sleeping With the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude." The title speaks for itself.
Mr Baer, good to have you with us.

All right, let's about that 28 pages that we can't see. If you were with the CIA and had a clearance, you could see it. What would you suspect would be in there?

ROBERT BAER, AUTHOR, "SLEEPING WITH THE DEVIL": I think the information -- information like this, 28 pages, you can do what we call sanitize it; you remove the sources and the methods, and you can still publish it. You just state the facts. You don't say where you got it from. So it's undoubtedly something to do with political sensitivities concerning Saudi Arabia.

O'BRIEN: Political sensitivities or national security, or both?

BAER: Political.

O'BRIEN: OK.

BAER: Well, it includes national security, because look at it this way -- if there is enough information in those 28 pages to indict Saudis inside Saudi Arabia, possibly officials, and the Bush administration indicts them and the Saudis don't turn them over, where are they going to be in the war on terrorism?

A lot of the information that was published in this report, I would indict some of those Saudis that have gone free, more than Zacarias Moussaoui, who is in jail now and may go to a military tribunal.

The point is the Saudis will not turn these people over to us for investigation or trial, and that's the dilemma this administration is facing.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk about the funding issue. There is some allegations out there that there really was perhaps some very direct funding of some of the 19 hijackers by Saudi interests. It's kind of hard to follow the money trail, of course, but the allegations are out there.

BAER: It's complicated, but what we do know is there was a Saudi agent, a presumed Saudi agent, someone who the FBI believes is a Saudi agent, that met two of the hijackers and set them up in San Diego. He paid money. He put money down. It was undoubtedly government money. It's this kind of suspicion that is causing Bandar, the ambassador, so many problems. Who are these people? Who supports them in the kingdom? And the Saudis are asking us, trust us, we've gotten care of this, we're taking care of terrorism in the kingdom. But the point is, we've trusted them in the past and we've been betrayed.

O'BRIEN: All right, but the issue here from the U.S. perspective is that a relationship with the Saudis is at the very core of U.S. national interest, and nations don't have friends, they have interests. And in this case, our interest is that oil. So don't we have to take the Saudis, warts and all?

BAER: We have to, but we're paying a price. I mean, we have our 3,000 dead. How do you explain these subtleties the families of the lost people in the World Trade Center gone and the Pentagon. This is the problem that Americans want the answer to.

I understand that Saudi Arabia is a brutal country, I understand it's has been a great ally of the United States, and I understand there is a certain rot in it that is resulting in killing American citizens, and we want the answers. I think it would behoove all of us, including the Saudis, to give us those answers, clean that place up, and let's clear the air.

O'BRIEN: But what is the likelihood of that when the Saudi regime itself may not be as secure as one might believe, given the fundamentalism that is alive and well in the kingdom?

BAER: You're exactly right. Once we start unraveling, how high does this go? And that's what the Saudis are worried about. All of these Saudis that were involved in September 11th had Saudi sponsors probably in the royal family, and they don't want to be exposed, whether they knew about the plot or not.

O'BRIEN: Let me ask you this, now that the U.S. is occupying Iraq and those oil reserves presumably will be tapped and that will end up on the market, does that, in any way, take the U.S. off the hook in this relationship with Saudi Arabia and take less emphasis -- takes an emphasis off of it?

BAER: No, not really, because the Iraqi reserves are ultimately going to go back to the Iraqis. People accuse of going into this war for its oil and substitute Saudi. I don't buy that. Saudi Arabia remains the most important producer in the world. It's got the only surplus capacity. It was there in '91 to bail out markets when they were tight. It was there this last war. We need Saudi Arabia.

So I share a lot of the concerns of the Bush administration, but the question is it's this dilemma, how do we induce change there without causing the family to fall?

O'BRIEN: Boy, talk about a tightrope. Robert Baer is out with the book "Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude." Thanks for joining us. We appreciate your insights. Good timing on the release of this book, with the report out.

BAER: I got lucky. Thanks.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com