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Monumental Controversey Reaches New Heights

Aired August 21, 2003 - 14:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Once more to Montgomery, Alabama, where a diehard judge and his faithful supporters are risking the wrath of federal courts in the name of the Ten Commandments. As we've been reporting, the state's chief justice has exhausted his appeals, and exceeded his deadline for removing the monument from the lobby of the state's main courthouse.
Here's the gospel according to Roy Moore.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JUSTICE ROY MOORE, ALABAMA SUPREME COURT: You see, separation of state and church never was never meant to separate God from our government. It was never meant to separate god from our law. Even the First Amendment, whose very purpose is to allow us to freedom to worship almighty God. But today that freedom is being taken from us by federal courts who misuse the First Amendment as a sword to take away our rights instead of a shield to preserve them for us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: It wouldn't be a controversy without opposing views.

And we get both sides now from Ayesha Khan of Americans United For Separation of Church and State, and the Rev. Pat Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition. We thank you both for being with you.

Reverend Mahoney, let's start with you, reverend. We heard the words from Ray Moore (sic) there. This is not -- is this an issue of separation of state and church?

THE REV. PAT MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: Well, we would have to define separation of church and state. But first of all, I would want to invite everyone that comes to Montgomery, Alabama, who cherishes the First Amendment, religious liberty and free speech to stand against this kind of judicial tyranny that we are seeing here and the crushing of the First Amendment.

No, we are making the argument. That monument there in that courtroom is a reminder to everyone who comes in, Christian, non- Christian, that the founding principals of our nation are based on the Ten Commandments and Judeo-Christian law. And hundreds have come, thousands to Montgomery, Alabama, and we will peacefully and prayerfully kneel around this court building, risking arrest should they try to remove this monument. PHILLIPS: Ayesha, the argument on behalf of Moore, Reverend Mahoney backing this up, separation of church and state was never meant to separate God from our government. Your response?

AYESHA KHAN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEP. OF CHURCH AND STATE: This isn't tyranny. This is anarchy. We live in a country where the federal courts are the ultimate arbiters of what violates the Constitution and they have now, at every stage of the federal court system, said that this monument violates the federal Constitution. And the defiance of a federal court order is the least patriotic act a person can take.

PHILLIPS: Ayesha, I want to read from the Declaration of Independence, signed July 4, 1776, clearly stating that -- quote -- "we hold these to be self-evident, that men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights, and among these are life, liberty and the pursuit happiness."

Is indeed the Ten Commandments just a moral foundation of our law?

KHAN: Well, there are many sources of American law, and the United States Supreme Court, for example, has the sculpture in it that depicts Hamarabi along with Moses, Justinian, Confucius, a whole host of lawgivers who are responsible for the legal system we have today. And the problem is when you single out one of them, and you do wit the motives that Justice Moore did, the Constitution doesn't allow it.

PHILLIPS: Reverend Mahoney, is this endorsing any specific religion? The Ten Commandments, this monument?

MAHONEY: No, it's just saying that the foundation of American law is based on the Judeo-Christian value and the Ten Commandments.

To Ayesha, I would disagree. There's not chaos here. It looks like a Norman Rockwell painting. There are moms and dads, children out here. And in terms of being unpatriotic, Dr. Martin Luther King would be unpatriotic. All those who cherish free speech, our Founding Fathers would be unpatriotic.

Here's the struggle here. A federal judge is not the final arbiter. The third circuit in -- for Pennsylvania -- over Pennsylvania has ruled that the Chester County courthouse can post the Ten Commandments. So we are saying we are peacefully resisting and affirming the ideals of America. One hundred and fifty feet from here is the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church. Apparently, Ayesha would think that the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, who violated court orders, is unpatriotic.

Chief Justice Roy Moore is affirming the principles of this country. He is standing for justice, just as courageous people have throughout the centuries. And I utterly resent the fact that we are unpatriotic here. You may disagree with us, Ayesha. I haven't called you unpatriotic. But we are affirming the founding principals of this country. PHILLIPS: Ayesha, go ahead, and, you know, answer the question too. The Ten Commandments, this monument, isn't this just acknowledging God, not necessarily endorsing a specific religion? President of the United States, you know, mentions God in every single speech that he makes.

KHAN: There's a difference between that and what Justice Moore has done here.

He said loudly and vociferously that he did this to proclaim the sovereignty of the Christian God. That kind of preference for a particular religion by a government official is not appropriate.

The Ten Commandments are a holy document. They are a sacred document. They are personal. And it shows profound disrespect for them and for the federal courts and for religion to allow them to become the star attraction in a three-ring circus.

MAHONEY: It's not a three-room circus here. And for Ayesha and all her supporters, if you have the problem with the mention of God in the public square, please send the Christian Defense Coalition your fives, your 20s, your $1. We'll be happy to take that offensive material from you and help to feed the hungry and help emergency shelters across the country. Do you have a problem with carrying "In God We Trust" on public money?

I mean, it's ludicrous here. This monument is not telling anyone to worship God in a certain way. It's making an historical statement that this is the basis -- and by the way, for all the viewers, there are other comments on that monument. It isn't just the Ten Commandments, affirming the founding principles of our nations.

It's not a three-ring circus here. Ayesha, come on out and take look. We'd love to have you.

PHILLIPS: Ayesha, let's take a look -- let's take a look at the monument, OK? We've put together a graphic here.

One, two, three, four -- the first four parts mention God and the Sabbath Day. But then it goes on, "Honor thy father, thy mother. Thou shalt not commit kill. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not covet."

I mean, if you think about it, overall, if you look at the status of just America today and you see kids killing each other and in schools and you see sexual assault cases coming about, I mean, what's wrong with a monument that has a little moral acknowledgment here?

KHAN: Well, let's talk about all of the problems society faces and Mr. Mahoney's reference to homelessness. There are about a million Alabama tax dollars right now that Justice Moore is facing the loss of, which means the state treasury has to deflect those dollars from valid, worthy causes, such as homelessness, and spend them attempting to fight what has from the beginning been a losing battle.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Reverend, let's let her just finish her thought. Go ahead, Ayesha.

MAHONEY: I'm sorry.

KHAN: And that's where we need to be pointing the finger. It seems utterly inappropriate to me to victimize people like my clients and the other eight justices on the Alabama Supreme Court that are doing something laudable, which is to uphold the Constitution and show some respect for the federal courts. It is Justice Moore that should be being accused of inappropriate action by his defiance and his arrogance, thinking that he is beyond the reach and immune from the federal courts, and, frankly, from the Constitution.

PHILLIPS: Reverend, final thoughts, please?

MAHONEY: I would say that you are seeing a battle being waged here where we as a nation embrace the principals of our founders, where we embrace God and justice. And once again, we are encouraging every person who cherishes -- who cherishes free speech and religious liberty, come now, come to Montgomery, Alabama, and be a part of history.

PHILLIPS: Reverend Pat Mahoney, Ayesha Khan of the Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Of course, Reverend Pat Mahoney with the Christian Defense Coalition. Both of you, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

KHAN: Thank you.

MAHONEY: Thanks a lot.

PHILLIPS: You bet. It was a pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired August 21, 2003 - 14:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Once more to Montgomery, Alabama, where a diehard judge and his faithful supporters are risking the wrath of federal courts in the name of the Ten Commandments. As we've been reporting, the state's chief justice has exhausted his appeals, and exceeded his deadline for removing the monument from the lobby of the state's main courthouse.
Here's the gospel according to Roy Moore.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JUSTICE ROY MOORE, ALABAMA SUPREME COURT: You see, separation of state and church never was never meant to separate God from our government. It was never meant to separate god from our law. Even the First Amendment, whose very purpose is to allow us to freedom to worship almighty God. But today that freedom is being taken from us by federal courts who misuse the First Amendment as a sword to take away our rights instead of a shield to preserve them for us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPS: It wouldn't be a controversy without opposing views.

And we get both sides now from Ayesha Khan of Americans United For Separation of Church and State, and the Rev. Pat Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition. We thank you both for being with you.

Reverend Mahoney, let's start with you, reverend. We heard the words from Ray Moore (sic) there. This is not -- is this an issue of separation of state and church?

THE REV. PAT MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: Well, we would have to define separation of church and state. But first of all, I would want to invite everyone that comes to Montgomery, Alabama, who cherishes the First Amendment, religious liberty and free speech to stand against this kind of judicial tyranny that we are seeing here and the crushing of the First Amendment.

No, we are making the argument. That monument there in that courtroom is a reminder to everyone who comes in, Christian, non- Christian, that the founding principals of our nation are based on the Ten Commandments and Judeo-Christian law. And hundreds have come, thousands to Montgomery, Alabama, and we will peacefully and prayerfully kneel around this court building, risking arrest should they try to remove this monument. PHILLIPS: Ayesha, the argument on behalf of Moore, Reverend Mahoney backing this up, separation of church and state was never meant to separate God from our government. Your response?

AYESHA KHAN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEP. OF CHURCH AND STATE: This isn't tyranny. This is anarchy. We live in a country where the federal courts are the ultimate arbiters of what violates the Constitution and they have now, at every stage of the federal court system, said that this monument violates the federal Constitution. And the defiance of a federal court order is the least patriotic act a person can take.

PHILLIPS: Ayesha, I want to read from the Declaration of Independence, signed July 4, 1776, clearly stating that -- quote -- "we hold these to be self-evident, that men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights, and among these are life, liberty and the pursuit happiness."

Is indeed the Ten Commandments just a moral foundation of our law?

KHAN: Well, there are many sources of American law, and the United States Supreme Court, for example, has the sculpture in it that depicts Hamarabi along with Moses, Justinian, Confucius, a whole host of lawgivers who are responsible for the legal system we have today. And the problem is when you single out one of them, and you do wit the motives that Justice Moore did, the Constitution doesn't allow it.

PHILLIPS: Reverend Mahoney, is this endorsing any specific religion? The Ten Commandments, this monument?

MAHONEY: No, it's just saying that the foundation of American law is based on the Judeo-Christian value and the Ten Commandments.

To Ayesha, I would disagree. There's not chaos here. It looks like a Norman Rockwell painting. There are moms and dads, children out here. And in terms of being unpatriotic, Dr. Martin Luther King would be unpatriotic. All those who cherish free speech, our Founding Fathers would be unpatriotic.

Here's the struggle here. A federal judge is not the final arbiter. The third circuit in -- for Pennsylvania -- over Pennsylvania has ruled that the Chester County courthouse can post the Ten Commandments. So we are saying we are peacefully resisting and affirming the ideals of America. One hundred and fifty feet from here is the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church. Apparently, Ayesha would think that the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, who violated court orders, is unpatriotic.

Chief Justice Roy Moore is affirming the principles of this country. He is standing for justice, just as courageous people have throughout the centuries. And I utterly resent the fact that we are unpatriotic here. You may disagree with us, Ayesha. I haven't called you unpatriotic. But we are affirming the founding principals of this country. PHILLIPS: Ayesha, go ahead, and, you know, answer the question too. The Ten Commandments, this monument, isn't this just acknowledging God, not necessarily endorsing a specific religion? President of the United States, you know, mentions God in every single speech that he makes.

KHAN: There's a difference between that and what Justice Moore has done here.

He said loudly and vociferously that he did this to proclaim the sovereignty of the Christian God. That kind of preference for a particular religion by a government official is not appropriate.

The Ten Commandments are a holy document. They are a sacred document. They are personal. And it shows profound disrespect for them and for the federal courts and for religion to allow them to become the star attraction in a three-ring circus.

MAHONEY: It's not a three-room circus here. And for Ayesha and all her supporters, if you have the problem with the mention of God in the public square, please send the Christian Defense Coalition your fives, your 20s, your $1. We'll be happy to take that offensive material from you and help to feed the hungry and help emergency shelters across the country. Do you have a problem with carrying "In God We Trust" on public money?

I mean, it's ludicrous here. This monument is not telling anyone to worship God in a certain way. It's making an historical statement that this is the basis -- and by the way, for all the viewers, there are other comments on that monument. It isn't just the Ten Commandments, affirming the founding principles of our nations.

It's not a three-ring circus here. Ayesha, come on out and take look. We'd love to have you.

PHILLIPS: Ayesha, let's take a look -- let's take a look at the monument, OK? We've put together a graphic here.

One, two, three, four -- the first four parts mention God and the Sabbath Day. But then it goes on, "Honor thy father, thy mother. Thou shalt not commit kill. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not covet."

I mean, if you think about it, overall, if you look at the status of just America today and you see kids killing each other and in schools and you see sexual assault cases coming about, I mean, what's wrong with a monument that has a little moral acknowledgment here?

KHAN: Well, let's talk about all of the problems society faces and Mr. Mahoney's reference to homelessness. There are about a million Alabama tax dollars right now that Justice Moore is facing the loss of, which means the state treasury has to deflect those dollars from valid, worthy causes, such as homelessness, and spend them attempting to fight what has from the beginning been a losing battle.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Reverend, let's let her just finish her thought. Go ahead, Ayesha.

MAHONEY: I'm sorry.

KHAN: And that's where we need to be pointing the finger. It seems utterly inappropriate to me to victimize people like my clients and the other eight justices on the Alabama Supreme Court that are doing something laudable, which is to uphold the Constitution and show some respect for the federal courts. It is Justice Moore that should be being accused of inappropriate action by his defiance and his arrogance, thinking that he is beyond the reach and immune from the federal courts, and, frankly, from the Constitution.

PHILLIPS: Reverend, final thoughts, please?

MAHONEY: I would say that you are seeing a battle being waged here where we as a nation embrace the principals of our founders, where we embrace God and justice. And once again, we are encouraging every person who cherishes -- who cherishes free speech and religious liberty, come now, come to Montgomery, Alabama, and be a part of history.

PHILLIPS: Reverend Pat Mahoney, Ayesha Khan of the Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Of course, Reverend Pat Mahoney with the Christian Defense Coalition. Both of you, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

KHAN: Thank you.

MAHONEY: Thanks a lot.

PHILLIPS: You bet. It was a pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com