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Interview With Ron Kuby

Aired October 22, 2003 - 13:50   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get back to Muhammad's change of heart about acting as his own attorney. How many times can he hire and fire himself? Can he do that indefinitely? What about the trial? What's the jury thinking through all of this?
Joining us from New York to help answer some of these questions criminal defense attorney Ron Kuby. Ron, good to have you with us.

RON KUBY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: All right, the trial has slowed now that the lawyers are in charge. Obviously, nothing to do with billable hours in this case. But the fact of the matter is, there are lots of objections to be had here, given the prosecutors case. It's a rather complex case against Muhammad, isn't it?

KUBY: It certainly is. It's very detailed. There will be a lot of forensic, physical evidence, a lot of questions as to the admissibility of evidence, generally.

And certainly, John Allen Muhammad was not equipped to handle this, from a legal perspective. I mean, I know that you watch "The Practice" and you watch "Matlock" and "Perry Mason" and say, Gee this looks pretty easy, anybody can do this. Then you actually get up there and do it and you discover it's a lot harder then it looks on television.

And I think that's what happened with Mr. Muhammad.

O'BRIEN: And I know that given the fact that they're testing out some new sort of anti-terror laws here, it's important from a legal perspective that there be a professional defense, because there will be some precedence set here.

KUBY: Clearly -- ultimately, this will be a precedence-setting case, in terms of the application of Virginia's anti-terrorist law to this type of activity.

But the reality is, these laws are too important for defendants or individual attorneys to be dominant in the proceedings. Courts eventually come to their own conclusions about the capability and constitutionality of the legislation. And that will be decided years from now at the appellate level.

O'BRIEN: Ron, have you ever had a case where a client has been this reluctant, or for that matter just reluctant, to be represented by counsel? Have you had to fight some of your clients in the past, as far as representing that person in court?

KUBY: Well, people usually want me as their defense lawyer. But the reality is, I represented Colin Ferguson, the Long Island Railroad Gunman, for a while. And then he fired me, fired my colleague Bill Kunstler, and decide to represent himself.

I've also been in other cases where the defendant in a multidefendant case start out representing herself and then decided, as did Mr. Muhammad after three days, jeez this stuff is too tough. Please, I want my lawyer back. That's why standby counsel had to remain and present in the room, just in case this day came, as it came sooner than anybody imagined. You don't have to have a mistrial.

O'BRIEN: Can this go on indefinitely? Can he keep...

KUBY: No! No! This is it! Done!

(LAUGHTER)

KUBY: You get one chance to represent yourself, which Mr. Muhammad had and one chance to change your mind and say, I can't do this any more, Judge. That's finished, it's done. The judge made it clear he can't change his mind again. And that won't be permitted.

O'BRIEN: What do you think the jury's taking away from this?

KUBY: I think the reality is these are not sporting competitions here where division made based on the skill of the players or the lawyers involved. This is a trial based on evidence. I think ultimately the jury will make its decision based on the evidence and not based upon what Mr. Muhammad did or did not do in a courtroom.

O'BRIEN: Ron Kuby, I didn't mean to dis you there.

(LAUGHTER)

O'BRIEN: I know that people who hire you want to keep you as their attorney.

KUBY: It's all right.

O'BRIEN: All right, thank you, appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired October 22, 2003 - 13:50   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get back to Muhammad's change of heart about acting as his own attorney. How many times can he hire and fire himself? Can he do that indefinitely? What about the trial? What's the jury thinking through all of this?
Joining us from New York to help answer some of these questions criminal defense attorney Ron Kuby. Ron, good to have you with us.

RON KUBY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: All right, the trial has slowed now that the lawyers are in charge. Obviously, nothing to do with billable hours in this case. But the fact of the matter is, there are lots of objections to be had here, given the prosecutors case. It's a rather complex case against Muhammad, isn't it?

KUBY: It certainly is. It's very detailed. There will be a lot of forensic, physical evidence, a lot of questions as to the admissibility of evidence, generally.

And certainly, John Allen Muhammad was not equipped to handle this, from a legal perspective. I mean, I know that you watch "The Practice" and you watch "Matlock" and "Perry Mason" and say, Gee this looks pretty easy, anybody can do this. Then you actually get up there and do it and you discover it's a lot harder then it looks on television.

And I think that's what happened with Mr. Muhammad.

O'BRIEN: And I know that given the fact that they're testing out some new sort of anti-terror laws here, it's important from a legal perspective that there be a professional defense, because there will be some precedence set here.

KUBY: Clearly -- ultimately, this will be a precedence-setting case, in terms of the application of Virginia's anti-terrorist law to this type of activity.

But the reality is, these laws are too important for defendants or individual attorneys to be dominant in the proceedings. Courts eventually come to their own conclusions about the capability and constitutionality of the legislation. And that will be decided years from now at the appellate level.

O'BRIEN: Ron, have you ever had a case where a client has been this reluctant, or for that matter just reluctant, to be represented by counsel? Have you had to fight some of your clients in the past, as far as representing that person in court?

KUBY: Well, people usually want me as their defense lawyer. But the reality is, I represented Colin Ferguson, the Long Island Railroad Gunman, for a while. And then he fired me, fired my colleague Bill Kunstler, and decide to represent himself.

I've also been in other cases where the defendant in a multidefendant case start out representing herself and then decided, as did Mr. Muhammad after three days, jeez this stuff is too tough. Please, I want my lawyer back. That's why standby counsel had to remain and present in the room, just in case this day came, as it came sooner than anybody imagined. You don't have to have a mistrial.

O'BRIEN: Can this go on indefinitely? Can he keep...

KUBY: No! No! This is it! Done!

(LAUGHTER)

KUBY: You get one chance to represent yourself, which Mr. Muhammad had and one chance to change your mind and say, I can't do this any more, Judge. That's finished, it's done. The judge made it clear he can't change his mind again. And that won't be permitted.

O'BRIEN: What do you think the jury's taking away from this?

KUBY: I think the reality is these are not sporting competitions here where division made based on the skill of the players or the lawyers involved. This is a trial based on evidence. I think ultimately the jury will make its decision based on the evidence and not based upon what Mr. Muhammad did or did not do in a courtroom.

O'BRIEN: Ron Kuby, I didn't mean to dis you there.

(LAUGHTER)

O'BRIEN: I know that people who hire you want to keep you as their attorney.

KUBY: It's all right.

O'BRIEN: All right, thank you, appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com