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Did Police go to Far When They Raided School With Weapons Drawn?

Aired November 07, 2003 - 14:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: How would you react if that raid had been at your child's school? With us from Washington to discuss this further, criminal defense attorney Pam Bethel and attorney Jack Burkman. Good to have you both with us.
(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: That's some dramatic tape, isn't it, Pam? I guess the question is how do you separate what appears to be high drama from what is legal and what is not?

PAM BETHEL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTY.: You know, based on that tape, it seems like they might have gone in there looking for weapons of mass destruction. Maybe that's where we're going to find them.

I think that's deplorable and I think that that is a definite overreaction. No one is saying that you can't keep kids safe. No one is saying you shouldn't try to do that.

But to go in having kids laying on the floor with guns, I disagree with the characterization. They were being pointed at some of the kids' heads. I think that's just ridiculous. This country has not come to that.

O'BRIEN: Jack, it kind of looks like excessive force. Very easy for us to sit here in 20/20 hindsight and make that determination. What do you say?

JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: I like Pam's one-liner. That's a good one. Save that for Letterman, though.

Look, it is disturbing, Miles. I agree with that. But it's necessary. We live in a different day and age. We live in a day and age of Columbine. We live in a day and age with many inner city schools having metal detectors.

Let me ask you this. Take it from the other side. Imagine what the CNN report would be today if this principal had been too lax instead of too stringent. Let's say there had been drugs, let's say there had been a shooting and two students were killed.

Then you know what the report would be? The same reporters would be down there and the same parents would be saying, Why didn't this principal do more? It's kind of like these police brutality -- or alleged police brutality cases where law enforcement is dammed if they do and damned if they don't.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: ... whether the Constitution steps in to schools and provides students the same protections that we all expect. I mean for example, searching a locker. A school can do that. Correct?

BETHEL: A school can do that. We're not talking about what the school can legally do just standing on the principles of the Constitution. Let's talk about using reason and common sense.

I come from a long line of educators. And I don't care that we're living in a world of Columbine. You've got to balance what you think the threat is against what is reasonable conduct.

If the allegations had been there were masked marauders running around the hall or someone had a weapon and they were making threats, or someone had made a threat, perhaps my opinion about this might be slightly changed. But for...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: The principal made a call to the police captain or lieutenant, and said, I've got a drug issue here. He never said a peep about guns.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: ... the decision time for a principal and a school director in a situation like that is limited. And if you wait, it's too late. In that sense, Pam's analogy to weapons of mass destruction is quite apropos.

The other thing, to return to your question, the legal treatment -- the students have rights but they don't have the same rights have you from your home. Yes, a school -- you know, the police are limited in terms of what they can do in terms of coming into your home to search the home. But they have much broader jurisdiction in the schools.

So, on the legal front, I think they're on very solid ground. The other thing is if you look at the last 20 years of case law on the Fourth Amendment, there has been a retrenchment. Pam, they disagree with that. But on legal grounds, I think you have a very hard case to make here...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Let's talk briefly though about whether the end justifies the means . Given the Columbines of the world, given the scourge of drugs in our schools, perhaps school administrators have to take drastic action. Would you go along with that at all? BETHEL: Look. I think that -- I am the first and prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. But we've got to use common sense.

If you use your analogy, does that mean every morning the school officials can round up or herd of up in group of kids and have police go through police searches? The answer is of course not. Nobody wants to see the erosion of individual rights, even those that are not -- as to what happened...

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: ... we all want to protect civil liberties. And we've had these debates about the Justice Department and Guantanamo and everything else. We all want to protect civil liberties, but you have to see that against the backdrop of an increasingly violent culture.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: Rights and liberties are not the only value.

O'BRIEN: Let me just pose this kind of a philosophical question for you. Are we not teaching our children a lesson about the violence of our society...

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: But, Miles, I see it from the other point of view in that there's nothing wrong.

Now if there this were to become an everyday thing without cause, Pam might have some merit in her argument. But there is nothing wrong with a little bit of shock-and-awe to put the fear of God and set a tone. What this guy is doing is setting a tone of discipline in the school.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: Look, we were all disciplined in school. And I know that the world is a different place when I was in school some X number of years ago.

Not withstanding that, coming in basically strong-arming kids, showing that kind of force, that does nothing for...

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: ... we're talking about rights and liberties. We're talking about abstractions. We're talking about ethereal things. Was anybody hurt? Was anybody harmed? Lives may have been saved. Drugs may have been stopped.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: The point is I see potential benefits, but I don't see any potential harm. BETHEL: Well I see no benefits and I see a great deal of harm.

O'BRIEN: Let's leave it at that. And we should point out -- we might have buried that little point in all this -- that no drugs were in fact found through all of that. I think that was mentioned in the report but worth reminding everyone here that in this case, the drugs that were suspected at least were not present in that case.

Pam, Jack, thanks very much for discussing this with us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com




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Aired November 7, 2003 - 14:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: How would you react if that raid had been at your child's school? With us from Washington to discuss this further, criminal defense attorney Pam Bethel and attorney Jack Burkman. Good to have you both with us.
(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: That's some dramatic tape, isn't it, Pam? I guess the question is how do you separate what appears to be high drama from what is legal and what is not?

PAM BETHEL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTY.: You know, based on that tape, it seems like they might have gone in there looking for weapons of mass destruction. Maybe that's where we're going to find them.

I think that's deplorable and I think that that is a definite overreaction. No one is saying that you can't keep kids safe. No one is saying you shouldn't try to do that.

But to go in having kids laying on the floor with guns, I disagree with the characterization. They were being pointed at some of the kids' heads. I think that's just ridiculous. This country has not come to that.

O'BRIEN: Jack, it kind of looks like excessive force. Very easy for us to sit here in 20/20 hindsight and make that determination. What do you say?

JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: I like Pam's one-liner. That's a good one. Save that for Letterman, though.

Look, it is disturbing, Miles. I agree with that. But it's necessary. We live in a different day and age. We live in a day and age of Columbine. We live in a day and age with many inner city schools having metal detectors.

Let me ask you this. Take it from the other side. Imagine what the CNN report would be today if this principal had been too lax instead of too stringent. Let's say there had been drugs, let's say there had been a shooting and two students were killed.

Then you know what the report would be? The same reporters would be down there and the same parents would be saying, Why didn't this principal do more? It's kind of like these police brutality -- or alleged police brutality cases where law enforcement is dammed if they do and damned if they don't.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: ... whether the Constitution steps in to schools and provides students the same protections that we all expect. I mean for example, searching a locker. A school can do that. Correct?

BETHEL: A school can do that. We're not talking about what the school can legally do just standing on the principles of the Constitution. Let's talk about using reason and common sense.

I come from a long line of educators. And I don't care that we're living in a world of Columbine. You've got to balance what you think the threat is against what is reasonable conduct.

If the allegations had been there were masked marauders running around the hall or someone had a weapon and they were making threats, or someone had made a threat, perhaps my opinion about this might be slightly changed. But for...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: The principal made a call to the police captain or lieutenant, and said, I've got a drug issue here. He never said a peep about guns.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: ... the decision time for a principal and a school director in a situation like that is limited. And if you wait, it's too late. In that sense, Pam's analogy to weapons of mass destruction is quite apropos.

The other thing, to return to your question, the legal treatment -- the students have rights but they don't have the same rights have you from your home. Yes, a school -- you know, the police are limited in terms of what they can do in terms of coming into your home to search the home. But they have much broader jurisdiction in the schools.

So, on the legal front, I think they're on very solid ground. The other thing is if you look at the last 20 years of case law on the Fourth Amendment, there has been a retrenchment. Pam, they disagree with that. But on legal grounds, I think you have a very hard case to make here...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Let's talk briefly though about whether the end justifies the means . Given the Columbines of the world, given the scourge of drugs in our schools, perhaps school administrators have to take drastic action. Would you go along with that at all? BETHEL: Look. I think that -- I am the first and prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. But we've got to use common sense.

If you use your analogy, does that mean every morning the school officials can round up or herd of up in group of kids and have police go through police searches? The answer is of course not. Nobody wants to see the erosion of individual rights, even those that are not -- as to what happened...

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: ... we all want to protect civil liberties. And we've had these debates about the Justice Department and Guantanamo and everything else. We all want to protect civil liberties, but you have to see that against the backdrop of an increasingly violent culture.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: Rights and liberties are not the only value.

O'BRIEN: Let me just pose this kind of a philosophical question for you. Are we not teaching our children a lesson about the violence of our society...

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: But, Miles, I see it from the other point of view in that there's nothing wrong.

Now if there this were to become an everyday thing without cause, Pam might have some merit in her argument. But there is nothing wrong with a little bit of shock-and-awe to put the fear of God and set a tone. What this guy is doing is setting a tone of discipline in the school.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: Look, we were all disciplined in school. And I know that the world is a different place when I was in school some X number of years ago.

Not withstanding that, coming in basically strong-arming kids, showing that kind of force, that does nothing for...

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: ... we're talking about rights and liberties. We're talking about abstractions. We're talking about ethereal things. Was anybody hurt? Was anybody harmed? Lives may have been saved. Drugs may have been stopped.

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: The point is I see potential benefits, but I don't see any potential harm. BETHEL: Well I see no benefits and I see a great deal of harm.

O'BRIEN: Let's leave it at that. And we should point out -- we might have buried that little point in all this -- that no drugs were in fact found through all of that. I think that was mentioned in the report but worth reminding everyone here that in this case, the drugs that were suspected at least were not present in that case.

Pam, Jack, thanks very much for discussing this with us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com




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