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Operation Iron Hammer Ramps Up in Iraq; Saudi Arabia Seeking Change?

Aired November 13, 2003 - 14:49   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: On the ground, in the air, under constant threat, U.S. forces in Iraq are once again fighting back. Operation Iron Hammer is sending new shockwaves through Baghdad and environs.
We get the latest from CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon -- hello, Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, hello, Miles.

Well, as U.S. military forces are pounding a target in Baghdad for the second day, the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq is assuring the United States public that the U.S. is going to be victorious and estimating the number of enemy forces at about 5,000. U.S. troops carried out more air and ground assaults in Baghdad, hitting three sites in Baghdad, according to a coalition military spokesman, part of what you said is being called Operation Iron Hammer.

Once again, an AC-130 gunship struck a target, this time a Republican Guard building that apparently had been used to launch attacks on U.S. troops.

Today, General Abizaid, General John Abizaid, the U.S. central commander, said that -- confidently insisted that victory is assured, although he said, it would take -- quote -- "a lot more tough military work." And although some U.S. commanders are now coming to believe that Saddam Hussein himself could be directing this insurgency, Abizaid dismissed that speculation that what's happening now is part some of sort of master plan that Saddam Hussein had before the war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Saddam Hussein is one of the most incompetent military leaders in the history of the world. And to give him any credit, to think that somehow or other he planned this is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Again, today, General Abizaid put the number of forces opposing the United States at less than 5,000, although he conceded that they are well-armed, with lots of ammunition and lots of money. And he also conceded, they were directed at a fairly high level, at least in some instances. But, again, he stopped short of saying that Saddam Hussein himself was directing those attacks -- Miles. O'BRIEN: Jamie, do you get the sense that there has been an intelligence breakthrough at the Pentagon, allowing them to more precisely identify these targets?

MCINTYRE: Well, today, General Abizaid said that they still needed better intelligence, which clearly indicates that they still think they need to do a better job in that area. But we have been hearing from Pentagon officials over the last couple of days that some of these stepped-up attacks are the result of new intelligence and more intelligence from local Iraqis.

Every day, the United States is announcing some sort of an operation, a raid, discovery of weapons, which they say was possible because of information being provided by Iraqi citizens. So, General Abizaid is trying to make the case today that, although there is a significant, well-armed opposition, that there are still a large number of people in the country who are cooperating with the United States and welcome the U.S. military.

CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks so much. We appreciate it.

Let's get some guidance now, as we so often do, from CNN military analyst, Retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd, joining us today form Los Angeles.

General Shepperd, good to have you back with us.

RETIRED MAJOR GEN. DONALD SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: You bet, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Last time, we talked about the AC-130 gunship, which was used 24 hours ago. We don't know precisely what was employed in this latest attack.

But 24 hours ago, there was another attack to tell you about. This involved an Apache helicopter. We don't know if it was the latest version, the so-called Longbow. But let's talk for just a moment about the Apache. It's the Army's primary attack helicopter. The basics on it, it's got this Hellfire anti-tank missile, which I want you to elaborate on a little bit, a .30-millimeter gun. And that Longbow radar is able to do an impressive capability of tracking, identifying and homing in on targets exported as well. But that's not relevant to the point here.

General Shepperd, the Apache is called in to play in what circumstances?

SHEPPERD: Basically, it's the Army's front-line attack helicopter, Miles.

The idea behind the Apache was to go in with infantry, ahead of the infantry and ahead of tanks in a coordinated attack, with rockets going in in front of it. In the Afghanistan conflict and in other conflicts, it's been used by itself. And it is not invulnerable, as we've seen. We had a couple of them shot down during the Afghan conflict. Prisoners of war ensued.

But it's a very, very good close air support machine. Those Hellfire missiles are great, not only against tanks, but also against fleeing vehicles, such as we saw day before last. And the .30- millimeter chain gun is extremely effective. The radar is not something that's being used in this particular case. But, again, they have very good infrared heat-seeking devices that enables them to see at night. It's an extremely impressive machine, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's talk for just a moment about it. We'll kind of give you an animation to give you a sense of the weaponry here.

And as we talk about it, you mentioned the two that were shot down. First of all, you indicate single-engine turbine aircraft here. As we advance the animation here, on the side there, what sorts of weaponry is on the side there?

SHEPPERD: Basically, you're looking at the Hellfire missiles. You're looking at rockets. You're looking at the chain gun right there. And you're looking at the infrared devices in the nose of the aircraft, all supported by a millimeter wave radar that's on top of the aircraft.

Again, it's not invulnerable. What we saw was, they went into the middle of an entrenched armored division there, the Medina Division, and they got almost of the airplanes shot up. And one of them went down, with POWs as a result of that. So it's a very impressive machine when used in the right environment. And this environment that we're using it in, in Baghdad right now, which is chasing the bad guys out of Baghdad while they're fleeing, it's an ideal environment for that, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Of course, we've seen in recent weeks the vulnerabilities of helicopters. Of course, we're talking there about daylight missions, as we continue our tour around the Apache.

If the Apache is operating under cover of darkness, is it fairly immune to those shoulder-fired heat-seeking missiles and does it have some of the evasive capabilities that we've talked so much about?

SHEPPERD: No, immune is the wrong word.

Helicopters are vulnerable because they're low and they're slow. Low puts them in close proximity to guns and heat-seeking missiles. And slow, of course, means they can shoot at them longer. Also, they also have to hover in some of their tactics, which makes them very vulnerable. They have infrared countermeasure devices that confuse heat-seeking missiles. Some of them also have chaff and flare, the chaff against the radar-guided missiles, the flare against the heat- seeking missiles.

But none of this makes them invulnerable. There are certain angles, there are certain dwell times that are required for the systems to diagnose and dispense countermeasures. And so there is no such thing as invulnerability. And any time you're low and slow close to the ground, you're more vulnerable than when you're high and fast, such as fighters.

So these are very, very good machines. They're less vulnerable in the night because people can't see them approaching to shoot at them. But they're not invulnerable either day or night. They're just very good, very useful machines. And they are at high risk in these operations over there. They're shot at daily, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Major General Don Shepperd, retired U.S. Air Force, thanks very much. Appreciate it.

The Bush administration calls Iraq the central front in the war on terror. That puts Saudi Arabia very close to the action, closer, from all indications, than it's ever been.

Prince Waleed Bin Talal is an influential figure in the new Saudi offensive. And CNN's Nic Robertson joins us from Riyadh with an exclusive interview.

Hello, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Miles.

Well, certainly, Prince Al-Waleed Bin Talal saying some things that one wouldn't have heard Saudi officials, members of the Saudi royal family, saying a few years ago. Talking about the attacks in Riyadh recently, he was saying how he acknowledged, and many Saudis now acknowledge, how they did have a problem, how there were terrorists inside Saudi Arabia.

But he also talked about how the government now wants to deal with that. He talked about how clerics are being removed from mosques.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: Quite a very large number of clerics have been essentially taken out of their jobs because they've been deemed to be propagating those kinds of ideas. These are reforms, yes?

PRINCE WALEED BIN TALAL: No, I think this is part of an overall reform program.

I think the fact of the matter is that some of those religious people who have been preaching in the mosques some extreme thoughts and ideas have been taken out of their position. But, in Saudi Arabia, we have tens of thousands of mosques. So the process will not just finish overnight. So it will need some time to weed out some of those people at the extreme and to educate those people to the new kind of thinking that has been prevailing right now, that is being pushed by the government and the rulers of Saudi Arabia.

This will take time, but the process has begun. And I assure you, there is no point of return at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ROBERTSON: Some of the other reforms he talked about were changing education for children in Saudi Arabia, removing text from some books, changing texts, texts that are now deemed to be too extremist in nature, if you will.

What this prince is trying to do here is reach out to the West to explain Saudi Arabia's position. It's something he feels that Saudis have not done enough in the past to open up and explain themselves. He believes that's important, because, otherwise, Saudi Arabia is going to be left behind by the rest of the world in economic development. In other issues, it may become viewed in a very negative way, particularly since the developments of September 11. So, to him, it is critical to get that message out. And he's very outspoken, very reform-minded.

But, Miles, one has to remember, he is up against some very conservative members of the substrata of bureaucracy inside Saudi Arabia. So, although he's putting out some very good and positive ideas, if you will, in his mind right now, they have yet to perhaps percolate all the way down through the bureaucracy here -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Nic Robertson, exclusive story from Riyadh, thank you very much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com




Seeking Change?>


Aired November 13, 2003 - 14:49   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: On the ground, in the air, under constant threat, U.S. forces in Iraq are once again fighting back. Operation Iron Hammer is sending new shockwaves through Baghdad and environs.
We get the latest from CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon -- hello, Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, hello, Miles.

Well, as U.S. military forces are pounding a target in Baghdad for the second day, the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq is assuring the United States public that the U.S. is going to be victorious and estimating the number of enemy forces at about 5,000. U.S. troops carried out more air and ground assaults in Baghdad, hitting three sites in Baghdad, according to a coalition military spokesman, part of what you said is being called Operation Iron Hammer.

Once again, an AC-130 gunship struck a target, this time a Republican Guard building that apparently had been used to launch attacks on U.S. troops.

Today, General Abizaid, General John Abizaid, the U.S. central commander, said that -- confidently insisted that victory is assured, although he said, it would take -- quote -- "a lot more tough military work." And although some U.S. commanders are now coming to believe that Saddam Hussein himself could be directing this insurgency, Abizaid dismissed that speculation that what's happening now is part some of sort of master plan that Saddam Hussein had before the war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Saddam Hussein is one of the most incompetent military leaders in the history of the world. And to give him any credit, to think that somehow or other he planned this is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Again, today, General Abizaid put the number of forces opposing the United States at less than 5,000, although he conceded that they are well-armed, with lots of ammunition and lots of money. And he also conceded, they were directed at a fairly high level, at least in some instances. But, again, he stopped short of saying that Saddam Hussein himself was directing those attacks -- Miles. O'BRIEN: Jamie, do you get the sense that there has been an intelligence breakthrough at the Pentagon, allowing them to more precisely identify these targets?

MCINTYRE: Well, today, General Abizaid said that they still needed better intelligence, which clearly indicates that they still think they need to do a better job in that area. But we have been hearing from Pentagon officials over the last couple of days that some of these stepped-up attacks are the result of new intelligence and more intelligence from local Iraqis.

Every day, the United States is announcing some sort of an operation, a raid, discovery of weapons, which they say was possible because of information being provided by Iraqi citizens. So, General Abizaid is trying to make the case today that, although there is a significant, well-armed opposition, that there are still a large number of people in the country who are cooperating with the United States and welcome the U.S. military.

CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks so much. We appreciate it.

Let's get some guidance now, as we so often do, from CNN military analyst, Retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd, joining us today form Los Angeles.

General Shepperd, good to have you back with us.

RETIRED MAJOR GEN. DONALD SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: You bet, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Last time, we talked about the AC-130 gunship, which was used 24 hours ago. We don't know precisely what was employed in this latest attack.

But 24 hours ago, there was another attack to tell you about. This involved an Apache helicopter. We don't know if it was the latest version, the so-called Longbow. But let's talk for just a moment about the Apache. It's the Army's primary attack helicopter. The basics on it, it's got this Hellfire anti-tank missile, which I want you to elaborate on a little bit, a .30-millimeter gun. And that Longbow radar is able to do an impressive capability of tracking, identifying and homing in on targets exported as well. But that's not relevant to the point here.

General Shepperd, the Apache is called in to play in what circumstances?

SHEPPERD: Basically, it's the Army's front-line attack helicopter, Miles.

The idea behind the Apache was to go in with infantry, ahead of the infantry and ahead of tanks in a coordinated attack, with rockets going in in front of it. In the Afghanistan conflict and in other conflicts, it's been used by itself. And it is not invulnerable, as we've seen. We had a couple of them shot down during the Afghan conflict. Prisoners of war ensued.

But it's a very, very good close air support machine. Those Hellfire missiles are great, not only against tanks, but also against fleeing vehicles, such as we saw day before last. And the .30- millimeter chain gun is extremely effective. The radar is not something that's being used in this particular case. But, again, they have very good infrared heat-seeking devices that enables them to see at night. It's an extremely impressive machine, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's talk for just a moment about it. We'll kind of give you an animation to give you a sense of the weaponry here.

And as we talk about it, you mentioned the two that were shot down. First of all, you indicate single-engine turbine aircraft here. As we advance the animation here, on the side there, what sorts of weaponry is on the side there?

SHEPPERD: Basically, you're looking at the Hellfire missiles. You're looking at rockets. You're looking at the chain gun right there. And you're looking at the infrared devices in the nose of the aircraft, all supported by a millimeter wave radar that's on top of the aircraft.

Again, it's not invulnerable. What we saw was, they went into the middle of an entrenched armored division there, the Medina Division, and they got almost of the airplanes shot up. And one of them went down, with POWs as a result of that. So it's a very impressive machine when used in the right environment. And this environment that we're using it in, in Baghdad right now, which is chasing the bad guys out of Baghdad while they're fleeing, it's an ideal environment for that, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Of course, we've seen in recent weeks the vulnerabilities of helicopters. Of course, we're talking there about daylight missions, as we continue our tour around the Apache.

If the Apache is operating under cover of darkness, is it fairly immune to those shoulder-fired heat-seeking missiles and does it have some of the evasive capabilities that we've talked so much about?

SHEPPERD: No, immune is the wrong word.

Helicopters are vulnerable because they're low and they're slow. Low puts them in close proximity to guns and heat-seeking missiles. And slow, of course, means they can shoot at them longer. Also, they also have to hover in some of their tactics, which makes them very vulnerable. They have infrared countermeasure devices that confuse heat-seeking missiles. Some of them also have chaff and flare, the chaff against the radar-guided missiles, the flare against the heat- seeking missiles.

But none of this makes them invulnerable. There are certain angles, there are certain dwell times that are required for the systems to diagnose and dispense countermeasures. And so there is no such thing as invulnerability. And any time you're low and slow close to the ground, you're more vulnerable than when you're high and fast, such as fighters.

So these are very, very good machines. They're less vulnerable in the night because people can't see them approaching to shoot at them. But they're not invulnerable either day or night. They're just very good, very useful machines. And they are at high risk in these operations over there. They're shot at daily, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Major General Don Shepperd, retired U.S. Air Force, thanks very much. Appreciate it.

The Bush administration calls Iraq the central front in the war on terror. That puts Saudi Arabia very close to the action, closer, from all indications, than it's ever been.

Prince Waleed Bin Talal is an influential figure in the new Saudi offensive. And CNN's Nic Robertson joins us from Riyadh with an exclusive interview.

Hello, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Miles.

Well, certainly, Prince Al-Waleed Bin Talal saying some things that one wouldn't have heard Saudi officials, members of the Saudi royal family, saying a few years ago. Talking about the attacks in Riyadh recently, he was saying how he acknowledged, and many Saudis now acknowledge, how they did have a problem, how there were terrorists inside Saudi Arabia.

But he also talked about how the government now wants to deal with that. He talked about how clerics are being removed from mosques.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: Quite a very large number of clerics have been essentially taken out of their jobs because they've been deemed to be propagating those kinds of ideas. These are reforms, yes?

PRINCE WALEED BIN TALAL: No, I think this is part of an overall reform program.

I think the fact of the matter is that some of those religious people who have been preaching in the mosques some extreme thoughts and ideas have been taken out of their position. But, in Saudi Arabia, we have tens of thousands of mosques. So the process will not just finish overnight. So it will need some time to weed out some of those people at the extreme and to educate those people to the new kind of thinking that has been prevailing right now, that is being pushed by the government and the rulers of Saudi Arabia.

This will take time, but the process has begun. And I assure you, there is no point of return at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ROBERTSON: Some of the other reforms he talked about were changing education for children in Saudi Arabia, removing text from some books, changing texts, texts that are now deemed to be too extremist in nature, if you will.

What this prince is trying to do here is reach out to the West to explain Saudi Arabia's position. It's something he feels that Saudis have not done enough in the past to open up and explain themselves. He believes that's important, because, otherwise, Saudi Arabia is going to be left behind by the rest of the world in economic development. In other issues, it may become viewed in a very negative way, particularly since the developments of September 11. So, to him, it is critical to get that message out. And he's very outspoken, very reform-minded.

But, Miles, one has to remember, he is up against some very conservative members of the substrata of bureaucracy inside Saudi Arabia. So, although he's putting out some very good and positive ideas, if you will, in his mind right now, they have yet to perhaps percolate all the way down through the bureaucracy here -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Nic Robertson, exclusive story from Riyadh, thank you very much.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com




Seeking Change?>