Return to Transcripts main page

Live From...

FDNY's Dirty Little Secret?

Aired December 02, 2003 - 15:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The New York City Fire Department suffered catastrophic losses on 9/11, 2001. And more than two years later, among a number of fire department families, the suffering continues.
CNN's Jason Carroll sheds some light on what some are calling the FDNY's dirty little secret.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This picture of the Zazulka family was taken on their vacation in Maryland last year. Two months after it was taken, John Zazulka, husband and father, said he was leaving.

SUSAN ZAZULKA, WIFE OF FIREFIGHTER: I'm left in a situation that I don't even -- I don't know what to do, you know? And I can't turn to him, who I've trusted and turned to for the past 20 years. He's gone. And I -- he just doesn't want the responsibilities of the five of us.

CARROLL: Zazulka is a firefighter in Brooklyn. His wife, Susan, says her husband left her for a 9/11 widow of another firefighter who she says he was supposed to be counseling as part of a fire department program.

ZAZULKA: I feel like he had a job to do with helping after 9/11, and it's like he abused it. He just hides behind lies and blame. And I don't know who he is anymore.

CARROLL: When reached by phone, John Zazulka said he was not counseling the 9/11 widow he left his family for. He says they met through mutual friends. Zazulka also says his marriage was also in trouble before that. A source in the New York Fire Department told CNN, at least eight firefighters left their wives for 9/11 widows, some of whom they had been counseling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I'm just trying to help out and you're giving me a hard time. That's really nuts.

CARROLL: A year and a half ago, the department made a training video that addressed the bond that can develop between a firefighter and a widow he's counseling. Zazulka says she decided to come forward, so other firemen's wives in the same situation can have a voice.

(on camera): The New York City Fire Department stands by its program, saying it has helped a number of widows from 9/11. But here at the Zazulka home, the belief is that the department should only be using certified counselors.

Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: So should firefighters be used as counselors?

Let's get some expert advice now from Dr. Drew Pinsky. He does a lot of counseling himself. And many of you probably know him best from his syndicated radio show and MTV's "Loveline."

Dr. Drew, thanks for being with us today.

DR. DREW PINSKY, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Heidi, great to see you. How are you?

COLLINS: You, too. I'm great.

But I'm wondering, in your best guess, as an outsider's opinion, from what you see, what is going on here?

PINSKY: Well, I think what's going on here is, you have two traumatized individuals.

You're sending in firemen who have been traumatized to take care of a woman whose has had a terrible loss. The firemen are very often highly invested in being rescuers themselves. And you have a woman who is looking for a live preserver. You have a situation where boundaries are going to be blurred.

And if you're trying to rescue somebody from some awful, painful experience and you're prone to sort of going along with and being overtaken by their feelings, it's a recipe for things like romance to develop. And if somebody has not been highly trained in how to maintain a healthy distance and also maintain an empathic ear, those boundaries get blurred very easily.

COLLINS: So is this to be expected, then?

PINSKY: I think it's sort of a recipe for this sort of thing, yes. It's really -- it's a heartbreaking story. I listen to this story and it's almost something you can't bear to hear, people having horrible loss, then loss on top of loss. It's so terribly, terribly tragic.

And, in an idealized world, of course, we want these men's brethren to go in and rescue the widow of the man who has been lost. But the reality is that that is a very, very treacherous, slippery slope to go down.

COLLINS: Obviously, it's such an emotional experience that they all have gone through, and many people in the entire country, for that matter.

PINSKY: Oh, yes.

COLLINS: But in looking at Jason Carroll's piece, and we had a chance to look at some of the video that was made by the fire department. What's your take on that? It seems obvious that they know the situation exists.

PINSKY: Yes, they clearly are trying to deal with it. It would be sort of naive to think that it would not be an issue. But we don't know to what extent they're dealing with it.

And I think one of the grave errors they may have made -- again, we don't know a lot of the facts about what went on here -- but to send men in who themselves have been traumatized by the twin towers collapsing, to send a trauma victim in to try to save another trauma victim, that's two people on a sinking ship. And that often creates very intense and unrealistic bonds, where reality is kind of disavowed and cut off from this idealized fusion, where they can sort of reunite around a naive past. They can sort of remember how things were and detach themselves from the horrible feelings of the trauma.

COLLINS: And there was one wife who we heard say -- use the word abused, like abused the situation because of all of the emotion involved. Part of that must be happening as well.

PINSKY: You mean the firefighter would be taking advantage of the situation?

COLLINS: Right.

PINSKY: I prefer not to think of this as a sinister situation.

Yes, there may have been some attraction or something there in the first place. That's why these people were friendly. Or maybe that's why he elected himself to go over there. But I'm certain that there was not a sinister -- these people didn't desire to create these horrible, painful circumstances. Nonetheless, they have developed.

COLLINS: Finally, let's talk about the area that you are expert in, obviously. And that is credentials. It would be sort of remiss for us to talk about this without saying, well, these guys just really aren't trained to do counseling. Of course, some of them say that they weren't counseling -- but, obviously, kind of a tradition in the fire department.

PINSKY: And that is, right, the core issue, isn't it, is, to what extent can we expect men who do not have formal training in this area to go in and to really do some sort of therapeutic intervention for women that are really in need? I think it's unrealistic.

And I think, whatever interventions that the nontrained personnel do should be very carefully managed. Again, people don't -- we don't talk a lot in our culture about healthy distances, how not to be overtaken by the emotions of another. And, listen, it's why therapists exploit their patients and teachers exploit their students and doctors exploit patients and president exploit -- this happens in our culture a lot and not enough is made of educating people how to maintain a healthy distance. And in a setting of an acute crisis like this, again, you can see how things can get very blurry and very problematic.

COLLINS: All right, Dr. Drew Pinsky, we certainly appreciate your time today and giving us a little expert opinion on all of it. We appreciate it.

PINSKY: My pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 2, 2003 - 15:01   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The New York City Fire Department suffered catastrophic losses on 9/11, 2001. And more than two years later, among a number of fire department families, the suffering continues.
CNN's Jason Carroll sheds some light on what some are calling the FDNY's dirty little secret.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This picture of the Zazulka family was taken on their vacation in Maryland last year. Two months after it was taken, John Zazulka, husband and father, said he was leaving.

SUSAN ZAZULKA, WIFE OF FIREFIGHTER: I'm left in a situation that I don't even -- I don't know what to do, you know? And I can't turn to him, who I've trusted and turned to for the past 20 years. He's gone. And I -- he just doesn't want the responsibilities of the five of us.

CARROLL: Zazulka is a firefighter in Brooklyn. His wife, Susan, says her husband left her for a 9/11 widow of another firefighter who she says he was supposed to be counseling as part of a fire department program.

ZAZULKA: I feel like he had a job to do with helping after 9/11, and it's like he abused it. He just hides behind lies and blame. And I don't know who he is anymore.

CARROLL: When reached by phone, John Zazulka said he was not counseling the 9/11 widow he left his family for. He says they met through mutual friends. Zazulka also says his marriage was also in trouble before that. A source in the New York Fire Department told CNN, at least eight firefighters left their wives for 9/11 widows, some of whom they had been counseling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I'm just trying to help out and you're giving me a hard time. That's really nuts.

CARROLL: A year and a half ago, the department made a training video that addressed the bond that can develop between a firefighter and a widow he's counseling. Zazulka says she decided to come forward, so other firemen's wives in the same situation can have a voice.

(on camera): The New York City Fire Department stands by its program, saying it has helped a number of widows from 9/11. But here at the Zazulka home, the belief is that the department should only be using certified counselors.

Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: So should firefighters be used as counselors?

Let's get some expert advice now from Dr. Drew Pinsky. He does a lot of counseling himself. And many of you probably know him best from his syndicated radio show and MTV's "Loveline."

Dr. Drew, thanks for being with us today.

DR. DREW PINSKY, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Heidi, great to see you. How are you?

COLLINS: You, too. I'm great.

But I'm wondering, in your best guess, as an outsider's opinion, from what you see, what is going on here?

PINSKY: Well, I think what's going on here is, you have two traumatized individuals.

You're sending in firemen who have been traumatized to take care of a woman whose has had a terrible loss. The firemen are very often highly invested in being rescuers themselves. And you have a woman who is looking for a live preserver. You have a situation where boundaries are going to be blurred.

And if you're trying to rescue somebody from some awful, painful experience and you're prone to sort of going along with and being overtaken by their feelings, it's a recipe for things like romance to develop. And if somebody has not been highly trained in how to maintain a healthy distance and also maintain an empathic ear, those boundaries get blurred very easily.

COLLINS: So is this to be expected, then?

PINSKY: I think it's sort of a recipe for this sort of thing, yes. It's really -- it's a heartbreaking story. I listen to this story and it's almost something you can't bear to hear, people having horrible loss, then loss on top of loss. It's so terribly, terribly tragic.

And, in an idealized world, of course, we want these men's brethren to go in and rescue the widow of the man who has been lost. But the reality is that that is a very, very treacherous, slippery slope to go down.

COLLINS: Obviously, it's such an emotional experience that they all have gone through, and many people in the entire country, for that matter.

PINSKY: Oh, yes.

COLLINS: But in looking at Jason Carroll's piece, and we had a chance to look at some of the video that was made by the fire department. What's your take on that? It seems obvious that they know the situation exists.

PINSKY: Yes, they clearly are trying to deal with it. It would be sort of naive to think that it would not be an issue. But we don't know to what extent they're dealing with it.

And I think one of the grave errors they may have made -- again, we don't know a lot of the facts about what went on here -- but to send men in who themselves have been traumatized by the twin towers collapsing, to send a trauma victim in to try to save another trauma victim, that's two people on a sinking ship. And that often creates very intense and unrealistic bonds, where reality is kind of disavowed and cut off from this idealized fusion, where they can sort of reunite around a naive past. They can sort of remember how things were and detach themselves from the horrible feelings of the trauma.

COLLINS: And there was one wife who we heard say -- use the word abused, like abused the situation because of all of the emotion involved. Part of that must be happening as well.

PINSKY: You mean the firefighter would be taking advantage of the situation?

COLLINS: Right.

PINSKY: I prefer not to think of this as a sinister situation.

Yes, there may have been some attraction or something there in the first place. That's why these people were friendly. Or maybe that's why he elected himself to go over there. But I'm certain that there was not a sinister -- these people didn't desire to create these horrible, painful circumstances. Nonetheless, they have developed.

COLLINS: Finally, let's talk about the area that you are expert in, obviously. And that is credentials. It would be sort of remiss for us to talk about this without saying, well, these guys just really aren't trained to do counseling. Of course, some of them say that they weren't counseling -- but, obviously, kind of a tradition in the fire department.

PINSKY: And that is, right, the core issue, isn't it, is, to what extent can we expect men who do not have formal training in this area to go in and to really do some sort of therapeutic intervention for women that are really in need? I think it's unrealistic.

And I think, whatever interventions that the nontrained personnel do should be very carefully managed. Again, people don't -- we don't talk a lot in our culture about healthy distances, how not to be overtaken by the emotions of another. And, listen, it's why therapists exploit their patients and teachers exploit their students and doctors exploit patients and president exploit -- this happens in our culture a lot and not enough is made of educating people how to maintain a healthy distance. And in a setting of an acute crisis like this, again, you can see how things can get very blurry and very problematic.

COLLINS: All right, Dr. Drew Pinsky, we certainly appreciate your time today and giving us a little expert opinion on all of it. We appreciate it.

PINSKY: My pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com