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Saddam Hussein Captured: The Legalities

Aired December 15, 2003 - 14:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, will any legal proceedings for Hussein, it will be complex, no matter what. It wouldn't be the kind of trial where anyone would not want to have all their i's dotted and t's crossed.
Paul Van Zyl is with the international center for Transitional Justice.

Paul, your group helps countries go after criminals that commit mass atrocities. Walk us through what's ahead for Saddam Hussein. I know you definitely feel Iraq is not ready, or at least its system, is not ready for something like this.

PAUL VAN ZYL, INTERNATIONAL CTR. FOR TRANSITIONAL JUSTICE: Well, Kyra, I think that two independent reports, one by the Coalition Provisional Authority and one by the U.N. itself, have concluded that Iraq's criminal justice system is chronically dysfunctional and incapable of prosecuting serious trials like war crimes trials, or trials for genocide and crimes against humanity.

So what we're going to have to do in Iraq is blend together an appropriate degree of Iraqi ownership, with an infusion of international expertise. And the way that that's going to have to work, if these trials are going to be legitimate and credible, is to bring on board international judges, and prosecutors and investigators through the United Nations, and not through the United States.

PHILLIPS: So you think the U.S. will not be involved with this at all? this will be solely Iraq and other allies, international allies?

VAN ZYL: Well, I'm not sure about that, and I think that that's a source of concern for many human rights organizations, and many people both in Iraq and in the region.

Our organization, International Center for Transitional Justice, recently conducted a survey throughout Iraq, looking at a whole series of focus groups, and we found from people we spoke to a strong desire for there to be Iraqi ownership with international assistance, and that international assistance should come through the United Nations and some real concern about the international assistance coming through the United States.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about the charges that Saddam Hussein faces here. I'm pretty sure we're talking about the Kurds, we're talking about atrocities against his own people. I mean, lay out what we're looking at here. VAN ZYL: Well, Saddam Hussein stands accused of unleashing chemical weapons, a campaign of chemical weapons. He stands accused of leading the Anfal (ph) campaign, which led to potentially hundreds of thousands of deaths. He stands accused of presiding over a system which led to mass and systemic torture, arbitrary and summary executions. And it's hard to overstate the enormity of the trials that he is accused of, and therefore, I think these trials are hugely significant for Iraq and they're hugely significant for the region. It would send a tremendously strong signal to the Middle East and to tyrants in that particular part of the world if they there were to be a credible trial, an independent trial, and a trial that wasn't too associated with the United States partly because the United States has a poor track record in relation to international justice, it sought to subvert the international criminal court, it's detained people without due process rights on Guantanamo Bay, and has a history of supporting abusive regimes in the Middle East. So I think it's in the United States's own interests for this trial to be internationalized.

I was greatly heartened to hear yesterday two senators, two U.S. senators, saying this is a moment to pause, let's take a deep breath, let's internationalize this process because this -- the credibility of these trials is absolutely cardinal.

PHILLIPS: So, Paul, let's say a tribunal does take over this process, then the death penalty will become an issue, correct? Because that would go against tribunal rules.

VAN ZYL: Absolutely. And I think I was speaking earlier to an Iraqi lawyer and constitutional expert, and he was saying that one of his earliest memories in Iraq was watching public executions occur under Saddam Hussein's rule, and he was noting that one of the most important things that could happen now with this tribunal was to send a signal that this cycle of violence and recrimination has come to an end, that Iraq has moved into an era in which it's respecting human rights. And I think it would be unfortunate for us to have the death penalty imposed, both for philosophical reasons, but also for very practical reasons. It's going to make it very difficult for European nations to contribute skills in the form of investigators, judges, and prosecutors if there is a death penalty at play here.

And as I say, I think we want to make sure there there's a maximum degree of Iraqi participation, I mean, international participation in this process.

PHILLIPS: And if there is that Iraqi intervention, you tend to wonder will Saddam Hussein be tortured as he tortured so many others?

VAN ZYL: Well, you're right. I think we have to think about the due process protections that accompany this trial, and it's going to be crucial that he is afforded his full due process rights, and that there is no allegations of mistreatment or coercion or duress. And these are going to be trials which will be scrutinized with much greater intensity than, for example, the Milosevic trials, which are currently happening in The Hague. And we want to make sure that they withstand deep scrutiny and that tyrants in the region and abusive leaders in the Middle East are not able to say, oh, these trials are not fair, these trials are a product of manipulation. We want to make sure these trials are fair.

PHILLIPS: Well, the world will be watching, and we will, too. Paul Van Zyl, thank you for your time.

VAN ZYL: Great pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 15, 2003 - 14:18   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, will any legal proceedings for Hussein, it will be complex, no matter what. It wouldn't be the kind of trial where anyone would not want to have all their i's dotted and t's crossed.
Paul Van Zyl is with the international center for Transitional Justice.

Paul, your group helps countries go after criminals that commit mass atrocities. Walk us through what's ahead for Saddam Hussein. I know you definitely feel Iraq is not ready, or at least its system, is not ready for something like this.

PAUL VAN ZYL, INTERNATIONAL CTR. FOR TRANSITIONAL JUSTICE: Well, Kyra, I think that two independent reports, one by the Coalition Provisional Authority and one by the U.N. itself, have concluded that Iraq's criminal justice system is chronically dysfunctional and incapable of prosecuting serious trials like war crimes trials, or trials for genocide and crimes against humanity.

So what we're going to have to do in Iraq is blend together an appropriate degree of Iraqi ownership, with an infusion of international expertise. And the way that that's going to have to work, if these trials are going to be legitimate and credible, is to bring on board international judges, and prosecutors and investigators through the United Nations, and not through the United States.

PHILLIPS: So you think the U.S. will not be involved with this at all? this will be solely Iraq and other allies, international allies?

VAN ZYL: Well, I'm not sure about that, and I think that that's a source of concern for many human rights organizations, and many people both in Iraq and in the region.

Our organization, International Center for Transitional Justice, recently conducted a survey throughout Iraq, looking at a whole series of focus groups, and we found from people we spoke to a strong desire for there to be Iraqi ownership with international assistance, and that international assistance should come through the United Nations and some real concern about the international assistance coming through the United States.

PHILLIPS: All right. Let's talk about the charges that Saddam Hussein faces here. I'm pretty sure we're talking about the Kurds, we're talking about atrocities against his own people. I mean, lay out what we're looking at here. VAN ZYL: Well, Saddam Hussein stands accused of unleashing chemical weapons, a campaign of chemical weapons. He stands accused of leading the Anfal (ph) campaign, which led to potentially hundreds of thousands of deaths. He stands accused of presiding over a system which led to mass and systemic torture, arbitrary and summary executions. And it's hard to overstate the enormity of the trials that he is accused of, and therefore, I think these trials are hugely significant for Iraq and they're hugely significant for the region. It would send a tremendously strong signal to the Middle East and to tyrants in that particular part of the world if they there were to be a credible trial, an independent trial, and a trial that wasn't too associated with the United States partly because the United States has a poor track record in relation to international justice, it sought to subvert the international criminal court, it's detained people without due process rights on Guantanamo Bay, and has a history of supporting abusive regimes in the Middle East. So I think it's in the United States's own interests for this trial to be internationalized.

I was greatly heartened to hear yesterday two senators, two U.S. senators, saying this is a moment to pause, let's take a deep breath, let's internationalize this process because this -- the credibility of these trials is absolutely cardinal.

PHILLIPS: So, Paul, let's say a tribunal does take over this process, then the death penalty will become an issue, correct? Because that would go against tribunal rules.

VAN ZYL: Absolutely. And I think I was speaking earlier to an Iraqi lawyer and constitutional expert, and he was saying that one of his earliest memories in Iraq was watching public executions occur under Saddam Hussein's rule, and he was noting that one of the most important things that could happen now with this tribunal was to send a signal that this cycle of violence and recrimination has come to an end, that Iraq has moved into an era in which it's respecting human rights. And I think it would be unfortunate for us to have the death penalty imposed, both for philosophical reasons, but also for very practical reasons. It's going to make it very difficult for European nations to contribute skills in the form of investigators, judges, and prosecutors if there is a death penalty at play here.

And as I say, I think we want to make sure there there's a maximum degree of Iraqi participation, I mean, international participation in this process.

PHILLIPS: And if there is that Iraqi intervention, you tend to wonder will Saddam Hussein be tortured as he tortured so many others?

VAN ZYL: Well, you're right. I think we have to think about the due process protections that accompany this trial, and it's going to be crucial that he is afforded his full due process rights, and that there is no allegations of mistreatment or coercion or duress. And these are going to be trials which will be scrutinized with much greater intensity than, for example, the Milosevic trials, which are currently happening in The Hague. And we want to make sure that they withstand deep scrutiny and that tyrants in the region and abusive leaders in the Middle East are not able to say, oh, these trials are not fair, these trials are a product of manipulation. We want to make sure these trials are fair.

PHILLIPS: Well, the world will be watching, and we will, too. Paul Van Zyl, thank you for your time.

VAN ZYL: Great pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com